I have had to make an adjustment of Ephesians 1:4

[Jack Terrence]

Congratulations on picking up on Paul's switch in personal pronouns. Many people miss this. I would submit though that the "WE" is not just the apostles, but rather is a reference to the Jews. Here is a verse by verse breakdown of Ephesians 1:3-14

http://pfrs.org/commentary/Eph_1_3.pdf

I contend that the "WE" is the apostles only because it says that God made known the mystery of his will (the gospel) to THEM to put into effect.

 

[Butch5]

I contend that the "WE" is the apostles only because it says that God made known the mystery of his will (the gospel) to THEM to put into effect.

I agree, but that would also apply to the Jews. Paul also said,

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, (Eph. 1:5 KJV)

God made promises to Abraham. Because of those promises God told Pharaoh, Israel is My son, My first born

22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn: (Exod. 4:22 KJV)

11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: (Eph. 1:11 KJV)

The Jews did obtain an inheritance, it was the Promised Land.

Verses 3-12 are what is called a Hebraism. They are a praise to God for what He has done for Israel.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Let me say right off the bat that I am still a Calvinist. But I no longer believe that Ephesians 1:4 supports the teaching that believers were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. It has become clear to me now that Paul was speaking only about the apostolic company. He says that "WE" (the apostles) were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world, and that "YOU" (the Ephesians) were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, and were marked in him when "YOU" believed.

It's interesting that the focus is on the 2 words ("we" and "you") for understanding Eph 1:4, when neither of them even occur in Eph 1:4. The key word on who God choses (elected) is "us".

So, let's examine the context:

1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,

To God’s holy people in Christ Jesus:

2 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.


3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8 that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, 9 made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.

11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.

13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

Verses 1-12 are about the apostles. They were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world, and were endowed with all spiritual blessings in Christ and were adopted as sons. We know that Paul was speaking about the apostles because he said that God had made known to them the mystery of his will that they might put into effect God's will. Believers did not put God's will into effect. The apostles put God's will into effect. We know too by the phrase "we who FIRST trusted in Christ." It is the apostles who FIRST trusted in Christ.


Verse 13 is about the Ephesians. They were not chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world as were the apostles. They were included in Christ "when they heard the message of truth." They were marked in Christ when they believed.

13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,[/QUOTE]
None of this commentary changes the fact that Eph 1:4 isn't about either "we" or "you", but it's about "us".

So, who did Paul mean by "us"? Was he referring only to himself and his entourage, or referring to himself along with his audience to whom he was writing?

We know exactly who he was referring to by reading further into ch 1 at v.19 - and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might.

So, the word "us" refers to those "who believe". That would include Paul, his entourage and his audience.

Therefore, Eph 1:4 tells us that God chooses (or elects) believers, to be holy and blameless. iow, that's what believers have been elected FOR.

Election has nothing to do with being chosen unilaterally for salvation. None of the 3 related Greek words for elect/election; whether noun (ekloge), verb (eklegomai) or adjective (eklektos), are used in Scripture for being chosen for salvation.

However, 2 Thess 2:13 does tell us the basis on which God does choose for salvation:

But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

iow, God choses to save those who have faith in the truth.

We see the same principle in 1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

To say that God was pleased to save those who believe indicates who He was pleased to choose to save.

 

[Radagast]

Verses 1-12 are about the apostles. They were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world, and were endowed with all spiritual blessings in Christ and were adopted as sons.

No, it's about all Christians. There's nothing referring to the apostles here.

I contend that the "WE" is the apostles only because it says that God made known the mystery of his will (the gospel) to THEM to put into effect.

But in 3:9 Paul says the mystery is revealed to everyone. And it's impossible to read the Greek of 1:9 the way you're reading it. God is putting the plan into effect. A good translation of 1:9-10 is the ESV: making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

 

[FreeGrace2]

No, it's about all Christians. There's nothing referring to the apostles here.

Correct! While the OP labors over the words "we" and "they", which don't even occur in Eph 1:4 (subject of the OP), the focus of that verse is on "us". Which is defined in 1:19 as "us who believe". Which would be "all Christians" as you have noted.

 

[Jack Terrence]

No, it's about all Christians. There's nothing referring to the apostles here.



But in 3:9 Paul says the mystery is revealed to everyone. And it's impossible to read the Greek of 1:9 the way you're reading it. God is putting the plan into effect. A good translation of 1:9-10 is the ESV: making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

Paul clearly said that the mystery was revealed to himself that he might make all see. It doesn't say that the mystery was revealed to all of us or that we all will see. If the mystery was revealed to all of us, then we wouldn't have so many different views of what the gospel is. There could be no disagreement if we all see.

 

[Jack Terrence]

delete duplicate

 

[Radagast]

Paul clearly said that the mystery was revealed to himself that he might make all see. It doesn't say that the mystery was revealed to all of us or that we all will see.

Yes, but Paul wrote it down, thus revealing it to everyone who reads the Bible.

 

[Jack Terrence]

It's interesting that the focus is on the 2 words ("we" and "you") for understanding Eph 1:4, when neither of them even occur in Eph 1:4.

The "you" occurs in verse 4 in the Greek. This refers to the apostles. The "you" occurs in verse 13 in the Greek. This refers to the Ephesians. The apostle were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. But the Ephesian Christians were "included in Christ" when they heard the message and "marked out in him" for salvation when (not because) they believed.

NIV

13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Why do your posts have to be so blasted wordy and long all the time? There is virtue in brevity.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The "you" occurs in verse 4 in the Greek. This refers to the apostles. The "you" occurs in verse 13 in the Greek. This refers to the Ephesians.

I would love to know how one would come to this conclusion, apart from personal bias and opinion. Eph 1:4 tells us whom God chooses, and for what purpose He chooses (that we would be holy and blameless). Does it make sense to claim that God only chose the apostles to be "holy and blameless", and not all believers? I don't think so.

In fact, later on in that same epistle, Paul wrote 5:27 - "that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless."

There can be no doubt that 1:4 and 5:27 are about the same thing; believers are to be holy and blameless.

The apostle were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. But the Ephesian Christians were "included in Christ" when they heard the message and "marked out in him" for salvation when (not because) they believed.

There is no justification for "us" in 1:4 to be only about apostles. It's clearly "us who believe" as 1:19 clearly defines.

Why do your posts have to be so blasted wordy and long all the time? There is virtue in brevity.

When correcting errors, it takes words, sometimes more than at other times.

But I do apologize for any stress the length my posts may cause. In such cases, I recommend that one reads only as much as they can absorb, and then at a later date, read more, until such time as one has read the entire post.

btw, that "blasted wordy and long" post being referred to was hardly long. It was quite to the point. One who has been on these forums as long as you have surely have seen much longer posts.

 

[Jack Terrence]

Yes, but Paul wrote it down, thus revealing it to everyone who reads the Bible.

I disagree. Paul was speaking about special revelation to the apostles. All who read the bible still do not agree.

 

[com7fy8]

But Paul would begin a message with ministering God's grace and peace. And the grace and peace of God's love in us has us understanding the meaning of what Paul writes.

 

[tulipbee]

Thanks boxer for the knocking out the cults dead

 

[FreeGrace2]

Thanks boxer for the knocking out the cults dead

The OP for this thread is based on defining the word "we", which doesn't even occur in Eph 1:4.

The ones who were chosen are "us", not "we". - just as He chose US in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him.

And Paul defines who the "us" are in 1:19 - and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might

What is needed is evidence that the "us" in 1:4 is different than the "us" in 1:19.

The reality is that chapters 1 and 2 contain the word "we" 5 times; "us" 13 times.

And there are several verses that use both "us" and "we" in the same breath, obviously equating the meaning of the words.

For example: 2:5 - even when WE were dead in our transgressions, made US alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

2:10 - For WE are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for US to do.

Then, in 2:18 we find this point: For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.

Here, Paul includes the Ephesians as well as himself.

All the verses containing the word "us" applies BOTH to Paul as an apostle and the Ephesian believers.

The OP is based on a false notion.

 

[com7fy8]

Also, @FreeGrace2, Paul says "we all" "were by nature children of wrath, just as the others", in Ephesians 2:3. So, here I see how Paul is not trying to make himself more and different than anyone else. He himself has "by nature" been a child of God's wrath, he is saying, "just as the others."

Also, our apostle Peter says, for leaders >

"nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)

I understand that a leader is an example of all which is for all of us. An example is a sample

As we grow in Jesus in us > Galatians 4:19 > we grow in all Jesus has and shares with us. We might start with specialized gifts and callings, but in Jesus we mature in all the best of everything. So, if someone is concerned with only revelations, this is very limited, anyway.

There are falsely apostolic people who try to make it all about themselves and how they, only, can tell us anything. But even if we have real gifts, this is not the same as growing in grace with all its ability for loving.

 

[tulipbee]

The OP for this thread is based on defining the word "we", which doesn't even occur in Eph 1:4.

The ones who were chosen are "us", not "we". - just as He chose US in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him.

And Paul defines who the "us" are in 1:19 - and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might

What is needed is evidence that the "us" in 1:4 is different than the "us" in 1:19.

The reality is that chapters 1 and 2 contain the word "we" 5 times; "us" 13 times.

And there are several verses that use both "us" and "we" in the same breath, obviously equating the meaning of the words.

For example: 2:5 - even when WE were dead in our transgressions, made US alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

2:10 - For WE are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for US to do.

Then, in 2:18 we find this point: For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.

Here, Paul includes the Ephesians as well as himself.

All the verses containing the word "us" applies BOTH to Paul as an apostle and the Ephesian believers.

The OP is based on a false notion.

Your theology has been false for a long time.
The we we we isn't you you you

 

[FreeGrace2]

Your theology has been false for a long time.

Please address post #34 and point out anything in that post that is incorrect. Just throwing opinions out benefits no one.

The we we we isn't you you you

Who said it was?

 

[tulipbee]

Please address post #34 and point out anything in that post that is incorrect. Just throwing opinions out benefits no one.


Who said it was?

The ones who were chosen are limited. Certian number were chosen. Go search that in your bible

 

[FreeGrace2]

The ones who were chosen are limited.

Of course they are. Paul was very clear about who was chosen by the word "us". He actually defined what he meant by "us" a little farther in chapter one: "and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe." v.19

Certian number were chosen. Go search that in your bible

No need to. I already know all about who are chosen. I know that there are at least 6 different categories of the "elect"?

Regarding my request in post #37:

"tulipbee said: ↑
Your theology has been false for a long time."

And I replied:
"Please address post #34 and point out anything in that post that is incorrect. Just throwing opinions out benefits no one."

I'll take the lack of response to my request as not finding anything that was incorrect in post #34.

 

[Jack Terrence]

mistake