I found a road map on how to get Rome working with Orthodoxy

[rturner76]

If Rome is willing to scale back the powers of the ope a little bit. Making him "First among Bishops" and not the Vicar in the East. This plan I saw online looks like it could be a good plan to get the two sides together. It actually cited a few differing roles for the Pope in the East.

On the Roman Side they said they would give up the Filioque and there was a bunch of other stuff in this document. Too much to quote it all, it;s here if you want to read it. It was from The North American Orthodox-Catholic Theological Consultation. The U.S. Conference of American Bishops website.

http://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-te...al/orthodox/steps-towards-reunited-church.cfm

Can we make it happen or what? Will we heal the Schism?

 

[Philip_B]

Mark 10:42-43 and related synoptic references clearly ask a question.

My feeling is that the first four Ecumenical Councils were received by the Patriarchs East and West (Not sure about Alexandria and the Council of Chalcedon). It is clear that the matter of the Priority of Patriarchs was matter that interested them. The role of the Bishop of Rome as first among the Patriarchs belonged to his position as the inheritor of Peter.

There is a model in Acts 15, in how James appears to have conducted the work of the Council in Jerusalem.

My general feeling is that most people who have looked for any time at the matter of the filioque have come to the conclusion that it is either wrong, or wrongly added, or adds nothing of note. (I note that there are exceptions and they include Packer and Barth).

I have read to document on the link previously, and along with a range of dialogues between the Orthodox and other communions including my own, there is much to encourage us.

It should be remembered that time in the Orthodox Tradition is a strange beast and 1000 years can seem like yesterday passing.

Somehow we need to let our leaders know that we do think that this is important. That we do stand in solidarity with our brothers and sisters in Christ in the middle east as they face appalling persecution.

​

 

[thecolorsblend]

If Rome is willing to scale back the powers of the ope a little bit. Making him "First among Bishops" and not the Vicar in the East.

Don't forget about the entire Church converting to Orthodoxy. If we all do that, sure, the Orthodox will "reunite" with us.

Honestly, I'd abandon the Filioque tomorrow if that was the only thing standing in the way. But it won't stop there. If anything, Filioque is just the tip of the iceberg.

When these discussions come along, the question invariably comes down to what compromises Rome is prepared to make to achieve reunification. I've yet to hear what the Orthodox are prepared to do. Should they convoke a council to figure that out?

By way of example, a lot of Orthodox seem to believe they have the right to dictate Catholic liturgies such as Novus Ordo. And I'm neither defending nor condemning Novus Ordo; simply questioning where the Orthodox get off telling us what we can and cannot do with OUR liturgy.

I always include a disclaimer to let everyone know that I well understand that right doctrine is not and cannot be determined by membership rolls. But, that said, the Orthodox don't have much with which to bargain if worldwide membership numbers are anything to go by.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Don't forget about the entire Church converting to Orthodoxy. If we all do that, sure, the Orthodox will "reunite" with us.

Honestly, I'd abandon the Filioque tomorrow if that was the only thing standing in the way. But it won't stop there. If anything, Filioque is just the tip of the iceberg.

When these discussions come along, the question invariably comes down to what compromises Rome is prepared to make to achieve reunification. I've yet to hear what the Orthodox are prepared to do. Should they convoke a council to figure that out?

By way of example, a lot of Orthodox seem to believe they have the right to dictate Catholic liturgies such as Novus Ordo. And I'm neither defending nor condemning Novus Ordo; simply questioning where the Orthodox get off telling us what we can and cannot do with OUR liturgy.

I always include a disclaimer to let everyone know that I well understand that right doctrine is not and cannot be determined by membership rolls. But, that said, the Orthodox don't have much with which to bargain if worldwide membership numbers are anything to go by.

Worldwide membership numbers? It is rather like observing a political map of the United States. Although Democrats slightly outnumber registered Republicans, a map shows a sea of red between east and west borders of blue. Likewise, if you take Russia alone, virtually all of its citizens are members of the Russian Orthodox Church and Russia is vastly larger than all of the Catholic countries combined.

 

[thecolorsblend]

Golly, I guess that's why I specified the worldwide membership numbers rather than breaking things down one nation at a time.

 

[rturner76]

I did notice that while the Catholic is willing to compromise on some points and flat out change her stance on others, the Orthodox people I have seen at least on this website and on some Google searches, not only will not compromise on a single issue, but I have seen some people say the Pope needs to repent and ask for forgiveness from the Orthodox Church.

I doubt we will ever see that so we must make sure what we are asking of each other is reasonable. Physical and cultural barriers are as big as philosophical barriers in some cases so we must approach this with the understanding that we will compromise on our side in as many ways as humanly possible while still remaining Catholic.

Some things we don't have to agree on but allow the other to have their point of view on the matter as long as it does not interfere with both of our understanding of the sacraments and some other core beliefs that are essential to keeping the message of Christ true to what was taught by Christ and the Apostles.

I won't get into specific differences here and now but I'm sure they will be discussed if this thread develops. Right now there is not much interest in it so I'm hesitant to start researching if the topic is going nowhere.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Since it is in the section General Theology
I'll answer what I think if I can.
If not, no worries - delete this or ask me to and I will edit-delete it.

Can we make it happen or what?

Yes.

Will we heal the Schism?

No.

 

[Philip_B]

Fact Check:

Population of Russia: 146 million
No Roman Catholics: 1.2 billion
Counts for Orthodox: 300 million
Counts for Anglicans: 85 million​

So you are good TCB you are still winning.

We have a patriotic song in Australia with the chorus

We are one, but we are many
And from all the lands on earth we come
We share a dream and sing with one voice:
I am, you are, we are Australian​

I am sure you get the sentiment

 

[thecolorsblend]

So you are good TCB you are still winning.

As I said above, it's not about numbers. But since the Orthodox all seem to think Catholic polity, doctrine, liturgy and other things are (or should be) on the table, well, the Orthodox have less with which to bargain.

So instead of trying to boss everyone else around, maybe the Orthodox should be as open to negotiation as they demand the Catholic Church be.

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

Only way to mend the schism is unconditional Catholic conversion.

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

So instead of trying to boss everyone else around, maybe the Orthodox should be as open to negotiation as they demand the Catholic Church be.

We never had, nor will we ever have, a Vatican II, so that's not going to happen. For us, unity must be predicated upon the truth, not the other way around.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Follow Y'SHUA.
Y'SHUA is TRUTH.
"I AM TRUTH" HE says.
"I AM the GOOD SHEPHERD" HE says.
"FOLLOW ME" HE says.
"MY SHEEP KNOW MY VOICE" [already] HE says.

So then, EVERYONE who is HIS SHEEP HEAR HIS VOICE and FOLLOW HIM, HE SAYS.
No matter what group they are in, or no group at all.

Or is there a group that says otherwise ?

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

Some things we don't have to agree on but allow the other to have their point of view

For theologoumena, sure. For doctrinal matters, absolutely not.

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

Follow Y'SHUA.
Y'SHUA is TRUTH.
"I AM TRUTH" HE says.
"I AM the GOOD SHEPHERD" HE says.
"FOLLOW ME" HE says.
"MY SHEEP KNOW MY VOICE" [already] HE says.

So then, EVERYONE who is HIS SHEEP HEAR HIS VOICE and FOLLOW HIM, HE SAYS.
No matter what group they are in, or no group at all.

Or is there a group that says otherwise ?

What following him entails differs among different groups. For instance, among Protestants, contrition is largely peripheral, whereas among the Orthodox it is central.

 

[Philip_B]

As I said above, it's not about numbers. But since the Orthodox all seem to think Catholic polity, doctrine, liturgy and other things are (or should be) on the table, well, the Orthodox have less with which to bargain.

So instead of trying to boss everyone else around, maybe the Orthodox should be as open to negotiation as they demand the Catholic Church be.

You are of course correct, it is not about the numbers. Jesus calls us not to be big or bigger, but to be faithful. With all the great mountains in the world, God chose a little hill in zion.

Only way to mend the schism is unconditional Catholic conversion.

I do take this to be true, in the sense that it means the unconditional universal conversion of us all.

 

[thecolorsblend]

We never had, nor will we ever have, a Vatican II, so that's not going to happen. For us, unity must be predicated upon the truth, not the other way around.

Ah. So the shorter version is "Hey Colors, you were right, we're not willing to negotiate anything".

If this is supposed to be an exclusively one-sided thing, just say so. My answer to that is the Catholic Church has a billion members worldwide and probably the strongest brand name in recorded history. Objectively speaking, we don't need you.

Maybe I'm just in a cranky mood, not having enough grace for others, blah blah blah, but every time this subject comes up, the Orthodox always get really quiet when asked what exactly they're willing to compromise on (apart from allowing the Catholics to convert and join them, that is). They have a litany of demands to which Rome must accede yesterday but they're pretty short on where they're willing to give ground.

Lest I be accused of being vague, that isn't "reunification"; it's conquest.

 

[rturner76]

Since it is in the section General Theology
I'll answer what I think if I can.
If not, no worries - delete this or ask me to and I will edit-delete it.Yes.

No.

That's why I put it in General Theology, so everybody can comment.

 

[rturner76]

Only way to mend the schism is unconditional Catholic conversion.

This is the attitude that makes it difficult for mutual benefit to be realized

Though there is a philosophical difference that goes to the core that is:
For Eastern Orthodoxy Christianity is the apodictic truth,
in contrast to Roman Catholicism proclaiming the dialectic truth

 

[bbbbbbb]

We never had, nor will we ever have, a Vatican II, so that's not going to happen. For us, unity must be predicated upon the truth, not the other way around.

One of the problems, as I see it, is that the Catholic Church has spent centuries building walls to keep out non-Catholics. Vatican II is merely one of the most recent walls. Until the Vatican decides to recant and remove the walls they and they alone have constructed, nothing can happen of meaningful consequence. However, in removing the walls the Vatican will need to confess their error which, for them, is an impossibility because they believe (quite wrongly IMO) that their Church is incapable of error.

 

[prodromos]

When these discussions come along, the question invariably comes down to what compromises Rome is prepared to make to achieve reunification. I've yet to hear what the Orthodox are prepared to do.

What is it that you believe we have changed in our faith since the early centuries? I believe even some of your popes have stated that we Orthodox have retained the faith.