I bid you adieu

[Question.Everything]

To all those that spent time answering my questions, I appreciate it.

I've learned there is really no purpose in seeking out ways to validate or invalidate religious belief; only when it impedes on my personal freedom. I still think any religious belief (especially one principled in violence) is irrational, but personal choice is personal choice.

Always keep an open mind, and always rest your principles on non-violence. Constantly expand the lens of your own perception with knowledge, and don't be afraid of what you might find. There are no scary monsters behind the doors of rationality.

I'm not sure if it's allowed, but if anybody has any closing questions for me on my worldview and how it's changed over the past year or two (which I've spent a lot of here), shoot away. If it's not allowed, feel free to private message me.

See ya!

 

[drich0150]

In 314 posts what did you learn that you did not know before?

 

[food4thought]

Have any answers given you by Christians here increased your estimation of the rationality of the Christian faith?

Considering the broad range of viewpoints expressed here that are still considered Christian, have you come to understand that what the media portrays about Christianity is often not typical?

 

[GrayAngel]

To all those that spent time answering my questions, I appreciate it.

I've learned there is really no purpose in seeking out ways to validate or invalidate religious belief; only when it impedes on my personal freedom. I still think any religious belief (especially one principled in violence) is irrational, but personal choice is personal choice.

Is Christianity based on violence? Are you aware of how often the word "love" appears in the Bible? The commands of Christ are not to just extend His fan club, but to give to the poor, to show kindness even to the people who want to kill us, to share our burdens with one another, etc.

Always keep an open mind, and always rest your principles on non-violence. Constantly expand the lens of your own perception with knowledge, and don't be afraid of what you might find. There are no scary monsters behind the doors of rationality.

I've never been afraid of rationality. In fact, if you've read many of my posts (and you have, because I've responded in a lot of your threads), you'd notice that my posts are quite often balanced in both scripture and rational argument.

I'm not sure if it's allowed, but if anybody has any closing questions for me on my worldview and how it's changed over the past year or two (which I've spent a lot of here), shoot away. If it's not allowed, feel free to private message me.

See ya!

I don't have to be in your shoes to notice the wide variety of responses one gets when asking questions on theology. Some are more accurate than others, but it takes effort and can be confusing when everyone is arguing something different. The natural response to this for a non-Christian is to assume that the Bible cannot be known, and it's just so obscure that anyone can make anything of it that they want. I hope that this wasn't your conclusion.

People are very good at cherrypicking verses, taking things out of context, and mistaking personal opinion for Biblical fact. That doesn't make their arguments valid. I hope that you realize that there are right and wrong ways of interpreting scripture.

If you ever feel the urge to come back, feel free. Until then, God bless.

 

[Humble Pie]

Good-bye, take care.

 

[Question.Everything]

In 314 posts what did you learn that you did not know before?

Mainly that there is no purpose in arguing the logic of a creator. If God created everything, he created logic and there is no arguing it. Since it's not entirely illogical that we had a creator, literally nobody can win that argument. It comes down to personal choice.

I've slowly tapered my aggression down with people of opposing beliefs as well. That's not entirely a product of this forum, but it contributed. I remain aggressive towards those who impose things on my personal freedom, but beyond that I have no interest in trying to ruin any Christian's day with arguments against their worldview. The only thing I wish is that people continue towards a philosophy of non-violence. It is unfortunate that Christianity doesn't fill this philosophy, but it's not my place to speak of someone else's belief.

 

[Question.Everything]

Have any answers given you by Christians here increased your estimation of the rationality of the Christian faith?

Short answer: no.

While it has loosened my aggression towards a logical belief in a creator, I still think it is entirely irrational (and immoral) that our lives are built on the foundation of a God who rules over us with violence as a penalty for nonviolent crimes. It's even more immoral that our only saving grace from this violent penalty is a horrifyingly violent human sacrifice. There is way, way too much violence embedded in Christianity for my liking.

Considering the broad range of viewpoints expressed here that are still considered Christian, have you come to understand that what the media portrays about Christianity is often not typical?

I don't pay much attention to the media, but I do not stereotype all Christians as "Bible belt fundamentalists", no.

 

[Question.Everything]

Is Christianity based on violence? Are you aware of how often the word "love" appears in the Bible? The commands of Christ are not to just extend His fan club, but to give to the poor, to show kindness even to the people who want to kill us, to share our burdens with one another, etc.

I am not lying when I say I have read the Bible cover to cover multiple times. I agree with a lot of what Jesus has to say on morality, and am very aware of the theme of love in the Bible.

That being said, the themes in the Bible are very clear. If you do not abide by His rules, you will pay the price violently. God's justice is a critical aspect of himself, and his justice entails excruciating violence (drowning, stoning, human sacrifice, hellfire). This is the foundation of Christianity, both the justice and mercy of God. I believe there is absolutely no justice in violence against innocent people.

The more violence there is to pay in religion, the more popular it becomes (fear). This is why most of our ancestors worshipped the gods of nature; out of fear that their crops wouldn't grow. In any reincarnation-oriented religion it's fear that they will have a horrid second life. In Christianity it's either that you'll burn in hellfire or miss out on eternal life due to death. Die, die, die.

As much as you love God, the fear is within you. God wants you to fear him (the Bible supports me on this). This is fundamentally immoral and I will not have any of it.

I've never been afraid of rationality. In fact, if you've read many of my posts (and you have, because I've responded in a lot of your threads), you'd notice that my posts are quite often balanced in both scripture and rational argument.

Rationality does not "balance" with anything, it is an argument within itself. That's why you have to approach the Bible (or religion) from an entirely rational standpoint if you want to be fair.

It takes courage to approach a situation with unbiased and pure rationality, trust me. I often get into the same argument with anybody that supports government of any kind (which is most people). The government is based on the principle that you will be forced to do things with violence, and that is fundamentally corrupt. It is not freedom, it is coercion. It is the exact same with God; if you do not believe (pay your taxes), you die (go to jail, or die).

I hope that you realize that there are right and wrong ways of interpreting scripture.

I don't. If there is a "right" way to interpret scripture, God could (and should) have let us know how to interpret it. I can't conceive of any good or loving reason why a God would create a religion based on interpretation. As far as I know, there's no answer key as to how to interpret scripture or Biblical events. It's one of the reasons why I think the concept is irrational; it would be an extremely stupid way for an intelligent (and loving) creator to act.

 

[DCJazz]

Define rationality. I see a lot of non-theists that are highly irrational, after all.

 

[Question.Everything]

Define rationality. I see a lot of non-theists that are highly irrational, after all.

Rationality = coming to a conclusion with logic and reason. Example:

Christianity is irrational because it's a belief based on violence that is created by a being of pure love. The terms are contradictory. A being that is fully love cannot rule with violence, because that is not loving.

 

[golgotha61]

Rationality = coming to a conclusion with logic and reason. Example:

Christianity is irrational because it's a belief based on violence that is created by a being of pure love. The terms are contradictory. A being that is fully love cannot rule with violence, because that is not loving.

Christianity is not based on violence, it is based on love that is evidenced by God giving His life to spare our eternity separated from Him. Where is the violence against us here? He is the one who suffered mankind's violence.

If you are equating violence for the punishment as judgment for rejecting the Christ and His sacrifice, the supposed violence is chosen by the one who refuses the substitutionary death of Christ. How can I rationally be angry with God for judgment when He offers Paradise? How can I be angry with Him for a violent eternity when it is what I can choose or reject.

You have given your own admission of guilt when you state that you will not tolerate any religion that interferes with you personal freedom. In reality you have taken the position of God and this is violence in His eyes to His authority. You have in effect claimed Satan's theology of "I will be as the most high" (Isaiah 14:14).

 

[Question.Everything]

If you are equating violence for the punishment as judgment for rejecting the Christ and His sacrifice, the supposed violence is chosen by the one who refuses the substitutionary death of Christ.

No, I do not choose violence. Who in their sane mind would choose to be slaughtered? The one who chooses violence is the one who enforces it. I have done nothing wrong to any person by simply believing there is no God.

How can I rationally be angry with God for judgment when He offers Paradise?

How can I be angry with Him for a violent eternity when it is what I can choose or reject.

Because the choice is either "Join me", or "Suffer violently". If you can't see how that's an immoral imposition, I think you would be insane. A loving God does not set up such a horrifying ultimatum.

You have given your own admission of guilt when you state that you will not tolerate any religion that interferes with you personal freedom. In reality you have taken the position of God and this is violence in His eyes to His authority. You have in effect claimed Satan's theology of "I will be as the most high" (Isaiah 14:14).

I don't claim to be above anybody else. I really don't know what you're talking about.

Why would I tolerate someone who wants to commit violence against me when I have done nothing?

 

[golgotha61]

No, I do not choose violence. Who in their sane mind would choose to be slaughtered? The one who chooses violence is the one who enforces it.

If you are referring to God, the choice belongs to us not the one who offers the choices. God is the judge, we simply have the option to choose which eternity we would accept for the choice we make.

I have done nothing wrong to any person by simply believing there is no God.

But it is Him you have wronged. He has provided the way for eternal life and you are on the fence to rebuke the value of His salvation.

Because the choice is either "Join me", or "Suffer violently". If you can't see how that's an immoral imposition, I think you would be insane. A loving God does not set up such a horrifying ultimatum.

It is not immoral because He is the author of what is and what is not righteous or moral. What is insane is to devise a standard of morality based on personal opinion and use it to judge a holy and righteous God. God is not only loving, He is also just which demands punishment for sin.

I don't claim to be above anybody else. I really don't know what you're talking about.

Your position of denying God's purpose for your life and demanding your own is putting yourself above Him. You have in effect made yourself God.

Why would I tolerate someone who wants to commit violence against me when I have done nothing?

Are you saying you have never done anything wrong?

 

[Question.Everything]

What is insane is to devise a standard of morality based on personal opinion and use it to judge a holy and righteous God.

My standard of morality is based on innate human goodness. Violence against innocent human beings is wrong. Any child knows this with no guidance, and I'm sure you do too.

God is not only loving, He is also just which demands punishment for sin.

I've already addressed the justice aspect of God. It is based on violence and is immoral.

Your position of denying God's purpose for your life and demanding your own is putting yourself above Him. You have in effect made yourself God.

You are saying that we must sacrifice free will to live according to God's plan and have eternal life. What is the purpose of free will if following it would lead to our death? How is free will a loving creation?

Are you saying you have never done anything wrong?

No. But I've never done something deserving of a violent death. God murders children that have done nothing wrong. If you support this action, we have nothing in common.

 

[golgotha61]

My standard of morality is based on innate human goodness. Violence against innocent human beings is wrong. Any child knows this with no guidance, and I'm sure you do too.

Actually, children need to be taught morality. I have never seen a child yet that needed to be taught how to lie.

I've already addressed the justice aspect of God. It is based on violence and is immoral.

I'm not being disrespectful, but the Bible is the only accurate revealer of God's character. Since He is the creator of all that is and He is just as well as without contradiction (2 Tim. 2:13), everything He does is moral, according to His righteousness, and just. That is because these qualities are a part of His character. Any characterization of God that is in contradiction to the Bible, is false.

You are saying that we must sacrifice free will to live according to God's plan and have eternal life. What is the purpose of free will if following it would lead to our death?

Free will isn't sacrificed, free will is employed in making the choices of life or death. It is your decision how to exercise your free will and if you exercise it in a foolish way, the cost is high.

How is free will a loving creation?

I thought you valued your ability to live free from the restraints of religion. Without free will and the ability to choose, you would be forced to follow what you detest. God has given you the right to choose. Either live like you please in this temporal life and live separated from God and His paradise for eternity or live according to God's plan for your life and spend eternity with Him in paradise.

No. But I've never done something deserving of a violent death. God murders children that have done nothing wrong. If you support this action, we have nothing in common.

The point is, you are guilty of sin deserving of death. We all are since to violate one of God's laws carries the same penalty as violating all of them.

God does not murder children.

 

[Amber Bird]

This adieu is the first I've read of you QE. If you feel your time here is over, I wish you the best. And I do appreciate your honesty in listing yourself as a seeker here.

Perhaps, given your observations of Christianity (violent) you might find an article I, a Christian seeker, have recently discovered and began to peruse. It's rather extensive however, thus far I find it well worth the time in answering many of the same questions I've had myself, that are similar to your own observation.

I don't have enough posts to link it here but, you can find it easily enough by searching for:Violence in Christian Theology by J. Denny Weaver.

Wishing you all the best.

 

[Question.Everything]

Actually, children need to be taught morality.

Research suggests they don't.

Psychologists say babies know right from wrong even at six months

Children are born to know right from wrong, new research shows | Mail Online

Learning Right From Wrong: How Does Morality Develop? | Psychology Today

I'm not being disrespectful, but the Bible is the only accurate revealer of God's character. Since He is the creator of all that is and He is just as well as without contradiction (2 Tim. 2:13), everything He does is moral, according to His righteousness, and just. That is because these qualities are a part of His character. Any characterization of God that is in contradiction to the Bible, is false.

I don't mean disrespect with this either, but are you capable of thinking independently? Does your heart tell you that killing a harmless child is justified in any way?

I would honestly take the fires of hell over supporting a doctrine that says it's okay to kill babies and drown harmless people as an act of justice or punishment. It's revolting to anybody with a true sense of morality.

 

[bsd31]

I just want to touch on one thing that Question.Everything stated. I'll paraphrase -

"Punishing a totally innocent person is wrong"

Yes that is true, but scripture makes it clear that no one is totally innocent. If one agrees with the Bible, that no one is innocent, would it be wrong to punish?

 

[golgotha61]

Research suggests they don't.

Psychologists say babies know right from wrong even at six months

Children are born to know right from wrong, new research shows | Mail Online

Learning Right From Wrong: How Does Morality Develop? | Psychology Today

My children and grandchildren don't read these studies so they just react to the two innate drives of behavior. One is a God given knowledge of right and wrong but also the innate Adam given drive to violate morality. That is the point, we all know right from wrong at some point, unless we are sociopaths, but we all violate what we know is right in favor of selfish advantage.

Like I said, a child does not need to be taught to lie, they need to be taught not to lie. If a child gains the desired outcome through lying without a deterrent, they will continue to lie and will eventually become pathalogical.

I don't mean disrespect with this either, but are you capable of thinking independently? Does your heart tell you that killing a harmless child is justified in any way?

I think independently and that is why I bucked the trend in the family of friends I had and chose Christ. I also study thoroughly and intently and that is why I can say that what God has done and does is justified.

I would honestly take the fires of hell over supporting a doctrine that says it's okay to kill babies and drown harmless people as an act of justice or punishment. It's revolting to anybody with a true sense of morality.

Unfortunately you will take the "fires of hell" because of your lack of knowledge and understanding of Old Testament theology. True morality belongs to God because righteousness is God's morality. I really don't care much for the term "morality" since it never is consistent from culture to culture. One person may consider an act immoral while another person does not and vice versa. So, whose morality is the true sense?

 

[Question.Everything]

If one agrees with the Bible, that no one is innocent, would it be wrong to punish?

By death, torture, and pain? Of course.

What is a baby guilty of that is deserving of death?