I believe the Catholic and Orthodox churches teach a false gospel (warning: may offend some)

[NCTPremill]

I believe the Catholic and Orthodox "denominations" teach a false gospel of works. They stand under condemnation of Galatians 1:8-9 because they teach that justification is not by faith alone in Christ's merits alone but that our good works or obedience to God's commandments after baptism, albeit aided by grace, is necessary in order to remain justified in God's eyes. To me this is heresy. I believe even some Arminian groups, like the Churches of Christ and Seventh-Day Adventists, also can be deemed heretical because they believe that our obedience to God's commandment is necessary to stay justified.

In conclusion, I believe that these groups have stepped outside the bounds of orthodox biblical Christianity and should not be deemed "Christian" in the biblical sense.

 

[RC1970]

You may want to try a more diplomatic approach. Try dealing with the doctrines you object to rather than throwing bombs in every direction.

 

[Near]

Eph 2:8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God.

Justification is brought about by God's grace. I'm not a catholic, or EO, but I bet they believe at least, that they have faith in Christ's merits. They also have a lot of other things. It's not faith alone in faith alone that saves, otherwise that negates faith alone in Christ's merits alone, because it would be faith in Christ merits, plus you must believe you must not believe in needing to stay justified through obedience.
So... faith alone in faith alone seems to be a self-defeating belief that cannot be rationally tenable.

Also,

James 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Why James?

20But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

For faith to be effectual, it has to have works. Without works, it goes nowhere.

We should think of it this way: It's a faith that (not plus) works which saves.

Our works contribute to the vitality of our faith, and faith is the substance through which we are saved, which is by grace.

 

[NCTPremill]

I didn't say that faith alone in faith alone saves a sinner. I said that faith alone in Christ's merits alone justifies and saves a sinner. However, when you say that we must obey God's commandments in order to stay justified then you have basically rejected faith alone in Christ's merits alone. According to Paul, that kind of doctrine leads people to hell (Gal 1:8-9).

 

[Near]

I didn't say that faith alone in faith alone saves a sinner. I said that faith alone in Christ's merits alone justifies and saves a sinner. However, when you say that we must obey God's commandments in order to stay justified then you have basically rejected faith alone in Christ's merits alone. According to Paul, that kind of doctrine leads people to hell (Gal 1:8-9).

Do people have to "have faith" in "faith alone in Christ's merits alone in order to be saved"?
(also please respond to James 2 quotes)

EDIT:
Additionally, must the faith which you speak of have any works? Or it is a workless faith in Christ's merits which saves?

 

[Near]

However, when you say that we must obey God's commandments in order to stay justified then you have basically rejected faith alone in Christ's merits alone.

I also believe we have to abstain from being atheists in order to remain justified.

 

[Butch5]

I believe the Catholic and Orthodox "denominations" teach a false gospel of works. They stand under condemnation of Galatians 1:8-9 because they teach that justification is not by faith alone in Christ's merits alone but that our good works or obedience to God's commandments after baptism, albeit aided by grace, is necessary in order to remain justified in God's eyes. To me this is heresy. I believe even some Arminian groups, like the Churches of Christ and Seventh-Day Adventists, also can be deemed heretical because they believe that our obedience to God's commandment is necessary to stay justified.

In conclusion, I believe that these groups have stepped outside the bounds of orthodox biblical Christianity and should not be deemed "Christian" in the biblical sense.

If that's the case then the same has to be said of "justification by faith alone" as the doctrine is not found in Scripture. It is a Reformation doctrine whose basis is in a misunderstanding of the apostle Paul's teachings on works. So if you say that Catholic and Orthodox denominations should not be deemed Christian then the same should to be said about your belief

 

[Butch5]

I didn't say that faith alone in faith alone saves a sinner. I said that faith alone in Christ's merits alone justifies and saves a sinner. However, when you say that we must obey God's commandments in order to stay justified then you have basically rejected faith alone in Christ's merits alone. According to Paul, that kind of doctrine leads people to hell (Gal 1:8-9).

Where do you find anything that says one is justified by faith alone in Christ's merits alone? In Galatians Paul is addressing the Mosaic Law. What does the Mosaic Law have to do with Christians today?

 

[KWCrazy]

Accepting Christ as your Lord and Savior is the only requirement for salvation.
If you want to live contrary to God's laws that's your call. Heaven certainly needs someone to scrub the floors and the unsaved won't be there. Think of it this way. Entry to the Kingdom of Heaven is a great thing, but dining at the table of the King is far better than simply being in the kingdom. How you live your life will determine how you spend eternity.

 

[Dialogist]

Hi, there -

I wonder if you wouldn't mind clarifying what you think "justification" means.

Thanks.

 

[Butch5]

Hi, there -

I wonder if you wouldn't mind clarifying what you think "justification" means.

Thanks.

Who are you requesting clarification from?

 

[Dialogist]

Who are you requesting clarification from?

The author

 

[rnmomof7]

I believe the Catholic and Orthodox "denominations" teach a false gospel of works. They stand under condemnation of Galatians 1:8-9 because they teach that justification is not by faith alone in Christ's merits alone but that our good works or obedience to God's commandments after baptism, albeit aided by grace, is necessary in order to remain justified in God's eyes. To me this is heresy. I believe even some Arminian groups, like the Churches of Christ and Seventh-Day Adventists, also can be deemed heretical because they believe that our obedience to God's commandment is necessary to stay justified.

In conclusion, I believe that these groups have stepped outside the bounds of orthodox biblical Christianity and should not be deemed "Christian" in the biblical sense.

Actually most Catholics freeze up if you ask them what the gospel is.. because they just do not know

 

[rnmomof7]

Where do you find anything that says one is justified by faith alone in Christ's merits alone? In Galatians Paul is addressing the Mosaic Law. What does the Mosaic Law have to do with Christians today?

When you say it is Christ = anything it is a false gospel
In the case of the Galatians it was the jewish law tat was being added..

But the principle is the same..
If you add baptism to Christ it is a false gospel
If you add keeping the law of the Ot or your church ..it is a false gospel
If you add good works to Christ... it is a false gospel

 

[rnmomof7]

Do people have to "have faith" in "faith alone in Christ's merits alone in order to be saved"?
(also please respond to James 2 quotes)

EDIT:
Additionally, must the faith which you speak of have any works? Or it is a workless faith in Christ's merits which saves?

Jam 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.


This is an amplification of the teaching of Jesus that we know a tree by the fruit it bears. It is how we know the saved from the unsaved. It does not declare that the man has faith ...but that he SAYS he has faith.



This addresses a hollow profession of faith , not a saving one .Can a hollow profession save him? NO, any more than works can save.This scripture says to the church that this faith is non existent , it is dead.



The key word here is faith.. Faith PRODUCES WORKS..works do not produce faith ... Being saved by works only produces doubt... have I done enough? been good enough



The bible is clear that it is God that gives the faith and it is God that ordains the works of the saved

 

[Butch5]

When you say it is Christ = anything it is a false gospel
In the case of the Galatians it was the jewish law tat was being added..

But the principle is the same..
If you add baptism to Christ it is a false gospel
If you add keeping the law of the Ot or your church ..it is a false gospel
If you add good works to Christ... it is a false gospel

Not at all. Paul was addressing a specific issue. He didn't say Christ plus anything. He said the Law. In the historical setting Paul was addressing the Judaizers, Jews who were telling his converts that in addition to faith in Christ they also needed to be circumcised and keep the Law of Moses. This is what he was arguing about. If we're going to talk about a false gospel it's taking the writing of Scripture out of context to fit a man made doctrine. To say one needs nothing other than to believe is not supported by the Scriptures. Jesus Himself said those who don't obey Him don't love Him and Paul said that Christ became the author of salvation to those who obey Him/

 

[NCTPremill]

Not at all. Paul was addressing a specific issue. He didn't say Christ plus anything. He said the Law. In the historical setting Paul was addressing the Judaizers, Jews who were telling his converts that in addition to faith in Christ they also needed to be circumcised and keep the Law of Moses. This is what he was arguing about. If we're going to talk about a false gospel it's taking the writing of Scripture out of context to fit a man made doctrine. To say one needs nothing other than to believe is not supported by the Scriptures. Jesus Himself said those who don't obey Him don't love Him and Paul said that Christ became the author of salvation to those who obey Him/

Yes, the law of Moses which also included the 10 commandments (the MORAL law). Therefore, when you say the "Law of Moses" Paul is also referring to anything contained in the Mosaic covenant laws which not only includes circumcision, dietary laws, special days, etc. but also commandments like "Thou shalt not murder," "Thou shalt not steal," "Thou shalt not covet," etc. etc.

Our obedience to God's commandments is the fruit and evidence of saving faith in Christ. They do not make faith "fully formed" in order to make it justifiable before God (in fact, it is not faith itself that justifies us but Christ and his merits that justifies us, faith only being an instrument). Once saving faith has been exercised (which, btw, is also a gift of God's grace) we are forever justified and secured in Christ.

Therefore, your distinction that Paul is only referring to the Mosaic covenant laws doesn't necessarily undermine the standard Protestant position because Paul is also including the moral aspects of the Law of Moses.

 

[Dialogist]

As an Orthodox Christian, I have tried unsuccessfully to engage Mr. (Dr.? Rev.?) Premill in his argument, so perhaps the thread participants will work with me.

I understand there are two related arguments as follow, each intending to prove that the Orthodox Church is a heretical sect.


I think the argument chain goes like this.

First, there is argument pertaining to justification by faith:

(P1) [Understood] The teaching that justification is not by faith alone in Christ's merit is contrary to Paul's gospel

(P2) The Orthodox Church teaches that justification is not by faith alone in Christ's merit

Therefore:

(C1) The Orthodox Church preaches a gospel other than the one Paul preached


Then there is a second argument, pertaining to good works and obedience to God's commandments:

(P3) [Understood] The teaching that our good works, aided by grace, are necessary to remain justified in God's eyes is contrary to Paul's gospel

(P4) [Understood] The teaching that obedience to God's commandments, aided by Grace, is necessary to remain justified in God's eyes is contrary to Paul's gospel

(P5) The Orthodox Church teaches that our good works and/or obedience to God's commandments, aided by grace, is necessary to remain justified in God's eyes

Therefore, again (C1):

(C1) The Orthodox Church preaches a gospel other than the one Paul preached


Then, based on the witness of Paul in Galatians:

(P6) Any one that preaches a gospel other than the one that Paul preached is anathema

I will add:

(P7) [Understood] Anathema means heretical and not/no longer belonging to the Church


So by (C1)+(P6)+(P7), we have the main conclusion, I think:

(C) The Orthodox Church is a heretical sect


I guess I will run with this and try to argue, unless someone can tell me that I have not extracted the correct premises and conclusions of the argument.

 

[rnmomof7]

Not at all. Paul was addressing a specific issue. He didn't say Christ plus anything. He said the Law. In the historical setting Paul was addressing the Judaizers, Jews who were telling his converts that in addition to faith in Christ they also needed to be circumcised and keep the Law of Moses. This is what he was arguing about. If we're going to talk about a false gospel it's taking the writing of Scripture out of context to fit a man made doctrine. To say one needs nothing other than to believe is not supported by the Scriptures. Jesus Himself said those who don't obey Him don't love Him and Paul said that Christ became the author of salvation to those who obey Him/

And some that claim the title "christian" believe one must be baptized .....

Could you tell us what Jesus said we are to obey ?

 

[Hawkiz]

And some that claim the title "christian" believe one must be baptized .....

Could you tell us what Jesus said we are to obey ?

Matthew 28.19-20. 'Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, BAPTIZING them in the name of The Father, and The Son and The Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you and remember that I am with you always, until the end of the age.'

This takes place after the Resurrection. After Christ's work is finished. Yet He leaves us with things to do. Things like baptize others, (in a very specific way). Things like teach others to be obedient to Him and what He taught.

So YES, I can tell you what Jesus taught us to obey...because He taught those very things to His first disciples. Things such as loving God with all our hearts, minds, strength, soul...to forgive others as we wish to be forgiven...to be humble and never forget that we are nothing, we accomplish nothing without Him...to love others more than we love ourselves...that however we treat the least among us, that is how we are treating Him. Jesus taught a great many things; baptizing others just happens to be one of them. And if The Lord of Lords and The King of Kings said that we should do it, who is any of us to say differently?

Peace in Christ