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I am an intrinsically disordered human being...

Discussion in 'One Bread, One Body - Catholic' started by Michie, Mar 12, 2013.

  1. Michie

    Michie Manipulation Resistance Team Supporter

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    I am an intrinsically disordered human being...
     
  2. Needing_Grace

    Needing_Grace Chief of Sinners

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    Oooh, goody. Yet another article comparing the life-destroying issue of same-sex attraction to someone's peccadilloes (in this case, gluttony).

    The most useful thing written on the link was the following comment:

    "A person with a predisposition to overeat who by whatever strategies and efforts does *not* overeat is not a glutton. But according to the Church, a man with a homosexual orientation who forever chaste in both thought and deed is "damaged goods." He may not become a priest, because he can never be a "father type." He also, according to the Church, may be barred from being a coach, a teacher, or from joining the military based on orientation *alone*. "

    And this is exactly why I feel I have no place in the Church.
     
  3. Cosmic Charlie

    Cosmic Charlie New Member

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    1) I've never heard of a "Chinese auction", and to be perfectly honest term sounds a little judicial. Sort of like using the word "gyp" or "Jew" when refer to being fleeced by someone.

    2) The internet, dual edged sword that it may be, is not a vast wasteland.

    3) The use of as obscure a Yiddish word as "tchotchke" only exacerbates the whole uncomfortable feeling of xenophobia.

    4) This whole article is twisting the use and meaning of "intrinsically disordered" in the CCC in order to trivialize the fate of gay people: "If we're all intrinsically disordered you're not special and don't need protection.

    While I understand the point she could have left homosexuals out of it.

    Unless, of course, that was the real point of this article.

    Which it was, lets be honest here
     
  4. Michie

    Michie Manipulation Resistance Team Supporter

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  5. Michie

    Michie Manipulation Resistance Team Supporter

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    LOL! You two & your homosexual victim cards on everything.

    Read the article & quit the dramatics. You are just making the author's point. Sheesh.
     
    Imperiuz likes this.
  6. Needing_Grace

    Needing_Grace Chief of Sinners

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    I did read the article.

    She's comparing a peccadillo to something that poisons every aspect of my existence.

    Gluttony is nowhere defined in the catechism as any sort of disorder. It's one of the Seven Capital Sins. Homosexuality is defined, specifically as objectively AND intrinsically disordered. They're in completely separate universes with regards to gravity and effect.

    As previously stated, a person who likes to eat too much is no big deal. SSA, on the other hand..."well, just sit in the pew, go to confession and just shut your mouth! Stop being so dramatic. It's no biggie that we have no use or need for you."

    She's comparing her little necklace-sized cross with the ancient California Redwood sized cross of SSA.

    So she has to practice a little discipline with regards to food.

    Well cry me a river.

    Sent from my iPhone using CF
     
  7. Michie

    Michie Manipulation Resistance Team Supporter

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    *sigh* I think you missed the point but hang on to your bitterness if it makes you feel better.
     
  8. Cosmic Charlie

    Cosmic Charlie New Member

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    Homosexuals ARE victims Mich.

    School systems have exceptions to anti-bullying policies that allow people to bully them for "religious reasons"

    They are routinely denied service of all sorts just because they're gay.

    They get curbed, beaten and killed because people are scared/panicked/grossed out by them.

    Imprisoned and put to death in Muslim and Christian nations all over the world

    And of course

    They are ostracized by trivialized by Christian Churches everywhere who on one hand claim that they are to be treated fairly and on the other hand work to ensure that they don't have to treat them fairly because it would interfere with their "religious liberty".

    And of course,

    over-eaters have to suffer all but none of this but are somehow just the same as homosexuals.

    Just WHO is claiming false victim-hood here Mich ?
     
  9. Michie

    Michie Manipulation Resistance Team Supporter

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    I say we get to the topic of the OP. I'm tired of every thread being used for coming in with both snark barrels blasting while ignoring the point of the OP to turn the article into something it isn't.
     
  10. Cosmic Charlie

    Cosmic Charlie New Member

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    .....snark barrels .... ?

    Look, if you don't like my interpretation of this article (and I think it's a reasonable one) fine I'm gone.
     
  11. Michie

    Michie Manipulation Resistance Team Supporter

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    I'm not asking you to leave. I'm asking you to address the point of the article. Not turn it into imaginary hate speech.
     
  12. Michie

    Michie Manipulation Resistance Team Supporter

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    So to get back to the point of the op. The author's personal reflection.


     
  13. Needing_Grace

    Needing_Grace Chief of Sinners

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    I think I get her point. Recognize that we're poor, miserable sinners, each in his own way and rely on Divine Grace.

    The problem I have is the comparison between a peccadillo and a serious life altering issue that ultimately results in a life lived in isolation with only the promise of "pie in the sky" to sustain hope (virtue that, I think, is the source of joy) that something better and more fulfilling is coming.

    Someone who likes to overeat still has all kinds of choices in life s/he can take...provided they're not homosexual. Then it's the unconsecrated single state for life, no choice.

    Imagine that...seriously. Unconsecrated. Single. For life. No choice.

    Oh, and I never mention this but it's something I frequently think about...Word and Sacrament. I love both and would love to be able to share both, but I'm barred from that vocation because I have no choice but to be unconsecrated and single for life because I lack "affective maturity." I don't blame the Church for this. I don't blame anyone. It's something that I see as me missing what I was actually supposed to do and that's really hard to take.

    So call me a drama queen if you like, but do try to see it from my point of view...just this once. ;)
     
  14. Rhamiel

    Rhamiel Member of the Round Table

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    gluttony is a deadly sin
    all sin is life-destroying...
     
  15. Michie

    Michie Manipulation Resistance Team Supporter

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    I absolutely see your point of view when you put it out there rationally. I sympathize, I really do. But it is really hard to compare crosses that we carry because we are not the same people with the same strengths, weaknesses, or circumstances.

    Calling your cross bigger or more painful than another... there is no way to measure than from each individual's perspective.

    There are many unhappily married & lonely people out there with all sorts of issues. There are many celibate people out there that are quite happy. I depends on each individual & their situation.

    The point is we are all intrinsically disordered in some way or the other. It does not just apply to homosexuals. I applies to all of us. We should not only be understanding & supportive of each other & ourselves but we should not see the Church or one another as an enemy. God & the Church under Him molds us & advises in the way we should go. But we have to listen & try to understand why that is without disregarding ourselves, each other or the Church all together. For our growth & betterment. We all struggle.

    We can't compare our sins or struggles. Because we all sin & struggle. We were all born with original sin & are disordered in one way or the other.

    How do you know she's not sticking her finger own her throat every night?

    How do you know that couple does not struggle with addiction or domestic abuse?

    The list goes on & on.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2013
  16. Needing_Grace

    Needing_Grace Chief of Sinners

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    Okay. I can accept that we're all poor, miserable sinners each in his own way.

    However, as I did point out, gluttony is not classified by the Church as an intrinsic or objective disorder. It appears only once in the Catechism in the list of the seven deadly sins. I'd say that it's an inordinate (it's not what is desired, it's how much) desire for food.

    Now, homosexuality is specifically described by the Church in the official Catechism as intrinsically and objectively disordered (because of the issue of who is desiring whom in a sexual way). That's the teaching of the Church we all have to accept.

    That both are a manifestation of concupiscence, meaning we're all poor, miserable sinners each in his own way...absolutely accepted. That we all must rely on Divine Grace as provided for completely and utterly by Christ for everything in our salvation...granted as fact. Word and Sacrament.

    Oh, and it was Ms. Scalia who made the comparison. I was actually calling out the flaw in the comparison. The comparison is made way too much as if to minimize what having same-sex attractions actually means (which I explained previously and you acknowledged, thank you :thumbsup:) to the same-sex attracted, not cool. I have issues with that. On the other hand, if the conclusion is the message of the cross (the preceding paragraph), cool.
     
  17. TheOtherHockeyMom

    TheOtherHockeyMom Contributor

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    I wonder about the comparison a lot...is it fair to compare a chaste homosexual to a person who struggles with gluttony but does not generally overeat... and a person engaging in homosexual sex to a person who regularly overeats?
     
  18. Michie

    Michie Manipulation Resistance Team Supporter

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    It was a personal reflection that she shared in light of certain events. I get where you re coming from but I don't think it was a comparison but more of a tie in given recent events. Maybe not perfect but you know, I don't expect perfection. The intent was good. It was not a brazenly bigoted reflection as was first implied right down to the word 'tchotchke' being 'xenophobic'.

    It's about the intent not how many politically incorrect boo boos you can catch a person in & missing the point completely.

    Reminds me of our sue happy society that is just spoiling or a fight.
     
  19. Michie

    Michie Manipulation Resistance Team Supporter

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    She was saying we are all instrinsically disordered. Not the size of our crosses.
     
  20. TheOtherHockeyMom

    TheOtherHockeyMom Contributor

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    I get that, but I was thinking more along these lines...if you see two people of the same sex sharing public displays of affection, and an overweight person pushing a shopping cart loaded with junk food to the cashier, do you have the same reaction? Do we view not being able to successfully carry the cross and bear the temptation in both cases equally? Or is falling into sin worse in some cases than others?
     
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