Hypocrisy of pointing to OT?

[woodpecker]

hi, achristianforlife,

The Law of the OT was was to demonstrate how holy our God is, that we alone can not obey the Law, we are sin, and all the sacrifices, all the rules we try to obey can never be fulfilled in our own right.

Our goodness our works (trying to be good) will never please God....what pleases God?

FAITH.

It was never a covenant or the Law that saved, but faith in God.

8First, Christ said, “You (you being God) did not want animal sacrifices or sin offerings or burnt offerings or other offerings for sin, nor were you pleased with them” (though they are required by the law of Moses).

9Then he said, “Look, I have come to do your will.” He (he being God) cancels the first covenant in order to put the second into effect.

10For God’s will was for us to be made holy by the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ, once for all time (Hebrews 10)

Christians should read the OT to know their family tree, born again believers are now adopted into the family of Abraham, Issac and Jacob.

Something strange happened 100yrs ago,...

... some Christians started to believe the Jews are special people, even when Apostle Paul makes it clear, '28There is no longer Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male and female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus.' (Galatians 3)

they started to believe the old covenant of Abraham was still valid, and promises made in Ot still need to be fufilled,....ugh? All promises were broken because of their disobedience, and the New Covenant.

They misinterpret Romans. Apostles Paul's teaching in Romans is teaching the gentiles not to get all 'full of themselves' thinking God now favors gentiles over Jews, Paul says no, Jews are still welcome if they except Christ as their savior.

thus all the confusion between believers.

God is not a God of confusion, Jesus says 'my yoke is like'...people make it all so confusing and difficult.

If we are born again Christians are concern should be our focus on Jesus, the covenant of grace. Jesus says this new covenant consist of 'love your God, then your neighbors.'

we live holy for God, we spread the good new of His salvation, we help the poor, the sick, the orphans, the widows and imprisoned.

praise God!

 

[tzadik]

hi, achristianforlife,
The Law of the OT was was to demonstrate how holy our God is, that we alone can not obey the Law, we are sin, and all the sacrifices, all the rules we try to obey can never be fulfilled in our own right.

Couple of things real quick. I think we’re better off calling the Law of God, the Law of God. Because A. there’s no Biblical basis whatsoever for splitting the Word of God into “OT” and “NT”. (that’s actually a man-made tradition. Look up Marcion) B. God’s Law, remains His Law, no matter when He wrote it, spoke it or gave it. And finally C. The Law, Instructions, Commandments and Ordinances of God were not solely given to demonstrate how Holy God is and how we can’t measure up.
If you look real quick at Exodus 24:12 you’d see a purpose of God’s Laws that perhaps you’ve missed “Now the LORD said to Moses, "Come up to Me on the mountain and remain there, and I will give you the stone tablets with the law and the commandment which I have written for their instruction."
His Laws and Commandments were given to be followed, so that they could learn to walk in God’s ways.

"And you shall again obey the LORD, and observe all His commandments which I command you today.
if you obey the LORD your God to keep His commandments and His statutes which are written in this book of the law, if you turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and soul. "For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it.”
"I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,”
“by loving the LORD your God, by obeying His voice, and by holding fast to Him; for this is your life and the length of your days, that you may live in the land which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them."
Does that sound to you that God didn’t want His people to obey Him and walk in His ways? Does it sound like it was simply an “I knew you couldn’t keep it, now I will punish you for not keeping it” deal?

Our goodness our works (trying to be good) will never please God....what pleases God?

FAITH.

Without works? Are you sure about that? Because last time I checked James disagrees with that.
Faith means nothing without obedience and doing the good works that were prepared for us before the foundation of the world.
[Matt 5:16, Ephesians 2:10, Colossians 1:10, 2 Thessalonians 2:17, 1 Timothy 2:10, 1 Timothy 5:10, 1 Timothy 6:18, 2 Timothy 2:21, 2 Timothy 3:17.]
On the contrary it is our faith and love in God that will manifest into obedience and carrying out the good works that God created us to do for His glory. A faith without fruit is dead faith. No faith.
Remember that even the demons believe. Belief alone does not cover it. In fact even belief itself is equated to obedience in John 3:36 - "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

It was never a covenant or the Law that saved, but faith in God.

NO one has argued that keeping God’s commandment saved anyone. The issue here is whether or not we are to continue obeying God’s Instructions after salvation. The answer is clearly yes. Tis what all the believers from Genesis to Revelation did. They obeyed and lived according to God’s Word. Why would it be different for us today? Why are we the ones who want to pick and choose what Instructions we feel like obeying?

 

[woodpecker]

loving God, loving your neighbor, helping the poor, the sick, the orphans, the widows, visiting those in prison, evangelizing are following and obeying Gods instruction and commands.

Are you saying we should still follow the laws of Moses? Jesus and the apostles teach we are now in the grace of the New Covenant.

FAITH alone in Christ makes us right with the Lord, James was teaching if you are saved, if you have faith, works, good deeds should be evidence of your faith.
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6In the same way, “Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his FAITH.” (Galatians 3)
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What was that? Abraham was counted as righteous because of his works? Not, it was faith in God.
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7The real children of Abraham, then, are those who put their faith in God. (Galatians 3)
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Demons believe, but they are not saved, they are cursed for all eternity, they did not put their FAITH in God, but themselves, same as humans who have no faith in God.
A person can believe all he/she wants but until you put your FAITH AND TRUST IN GOD, YOU ARE NOT SAVED.
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apostle Paul:
24Let me put it another way. The law was our guardian until Christ came; it protected us until we could be made right with God through FAITH. 25And now that the way of faith has come, we no longer need the law as our guardian (Galatians 3)
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The bible is separated for a very good reason, the men whom put the bible together, wanted readers to understand the covenant of grace is separate from the old covenants.

If you want to follow the ways of your Jewish traditions there is nothing wrong with this, but do not place this yoke upon the gentile believers,
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16So don’t let anyone condemn you for what you eat or drink, or for not celebrating certain holy days or new moon ceremonies or Sabbaths. (Collossians 2)
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and do not place the burden of works on their salvation, for none can boast through works they are saved
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8God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. 9Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it (Ephesians 2)

 

[tzadik]

loving God, loving your neighbor, helping the poor, the sick, the orphans, the widows, visiting those in prison, evangelizing are following and obeying Gods instruction and commands.

True. But God gave us more than just 8 Instructions to follow. He gave us a whole book of Instructions

Are you saying we should still follow the laws of Moses?

It's called the Law of God. Are you a son of God? Why wouldn't you live by every word that proceeds from Him? Matt 4:4

Jesus and the apostles teach we are now in the grace of the New Covenant.

Grace without obedience to your Messiah? How can Jesus be your savior but not your Lord? You can't believe in the Son unless you obey the Son. John 3:36.

FAITH alone in Christ makes us right with the Lord, James was teaching if you are saved, if you have faith, works, good deeds should be evidence of your faith.

Without works, without obedience, faith is dead.
Even the demons believe and tremble. It's not about saying "Lord Lord", but our fruits will show our true colors. That is why He said "depart from me you who works lawlessness"
What do you think that means?

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6In the same way, “Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his FAITH.” (Galatians 3)
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What was that? Abraham was counted as righteous because of his works? Not, it was faith in God.

James 2:
21. Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
22. You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;
23. and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.
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Demons believe, but they are not saved, they are cursed for all eternity, they did not put their FAITH in God, but themselves, same as humans who have no faith in God.
A person can believe all he/she wants but until you put your FAITH AND TRUST IN GOD, YOU ARE NOT SAVED.

What do you think "work out your salvation with fear and trembling" mean? If you trust your dad, do you obey him? or do you trust him, but do your own thing?

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apostle Paul:
24Let me put it another way. The law was our guardian until Christ came; it protected us until we could be made right with God through FAITH. 25And now that the way of faith has come, we no longer need the law as our guardian (Galatians 3)

You can't only look at your relationship with the Law of God only from an unbeliever's perspective. It was a guardian that led you to Messiah. Now that you believe, do you put away His Instruction? Nay--Romans 3:31, we establish it.

The bible is separated for a very good reason, the men whom put the bible together, wanted readers to understand the covenant of grace is separate from the old covenants.

This unfortunately is very far from the truth. Marcion wanted to split the "testaments" because he despised the God of the "OT". His Word is one. Man changed that.

If you want to follow the ways of your Jewish traditions there is nothing wrong with this, but do not place this yoke upon the gentile believers,
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16So don’t let anyone condemn you for what you eat or drink, or for not celebrating certain holy days or new moon ceremonies or Sabbaths. (Collossians 2)

Again not quoting verse 17. Why don't you quote verse 17 with it? Is it because it explicitly says that the Sabbath day and Holy Days ARE a shadow of things TO COME? How do you reconcile that?

and do not place the burden of works on their salvation, for none can boast through works they are saved
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8God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. 9Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it (Ephesians 2)

I'm not boasting, but simply living by Matthew 4:4, and not just the ones I feel like.

 

[woodpecker]

God gave laws, and Moses made laws, even Jesus said Moses was wrong about his laws of divorce.

If you live by the law, you are cursed.

So tell me, are you out stoning to death homosexuals and adulterist,...how ridiculous to say we still live under the law of the Sabbath and works.

good luck with that, hope your works get you into heaven...not.
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"But those who depend on the law to make them right with God are under his curse, for the Scriptures say, "Cursed is everyone who does not observe and obey all the commands that are written in God's Book of the Law." (Galatians 3)

 

[tzadik]

God gave laws, and Moses made laws

Where do you get your theology?
Moses made the Laws? What? The Law of God was spoken by God’s own Mouth. Can you show me where Matthew 4:4 excludes the Holy Law of God from the verse?
Moses made the Laws is the most absurd statement I’ve ever heard in my life, as if the Law of God is a man-made law.

If you live by the law, you are cursed.

If you are an unbeliever and you try to live by the law, you are absolutely cursed. You wouldn't even be able to, because of the flesh. Romans 8:7-8.
But if you are a believer living by the Instructions of God, you are absolutely not cursed. Quite on the contrary...

I think the Messiah completely disagrees with you on that one.

Luke 10:25-28
25. And a lawyer stood up and put Him to the test, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"
26. And He said to him, "What is written in the Law? How does it read to you?"
27. And he answered, "YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND; AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."
28. And He said to him, "You have answered correctly; DO THIS AND YOU WILL LIVE."

John 12:50
"I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me."

Matthew 19:17
“And He said to him, "Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments."

So does God:
Deuteronomy 30:19-20
19. "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,
20. by loving the LORD your God, by obeying His voice, and by holding fast to Him; for this is your life and the length of your days, that you may live in the land which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them."

So does Paul:
Romans 7:10
“and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me;

And Solomon:
Proverbs 6:23
“For the commandment is a lamp and the teaching is light; And reproofs for discipline are the way of life”

And David:
Psalm 119:1
“How blessed are those whose way is blameless, Who walk in the law of the LORD.”

55. “O LORD, I remember Your name in the night, And keep Your law.”

Psalm 1:2
“But his delight is in the law of the LORD, And in His law he meditates day and night.”

Psalm 19:7
“The law of the LORD is perfect, restoring the soul; The testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.”

Psalm 37:31
“The law of his God is in his heart; His steps do not slip.”

Psalm 40:8
“I delight to do Your will, O my God; Your Law is within my heart."

I’m gonna go ahead and believe Scripture over you.
All these people were saved by grace through faith, just like I am today. Yet they continued to keep God's Instructions. Why? Because they were sons of God! As children of God, you listen and obey your daddy!
No one is talking about keeping God's Law to earn our salvation. I'm ALREADY SAVED!
His Law is for my Instruction.

 

[woodpecker]

go ahead and live by the laws of the OT, like I said, have you stoned to death a homosexual lately?

Matthew 5, Jesus is teaching the crowd His purpose is to fulfill the Law, He teaches the crowd "Don’t misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to accomplish their purpose."

Why, because we could never follow the law, Jesus then goes on to say 'your ancestor said murder brings judgment against the murder, but I say even anger brings judgment!. You have heard the commandment that says, ‘You must not commit adultery.’k 28But I say, anyone who even looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Peter, and some of the Church's kept trying to go back to the rules they lived by before the covenant of grace, Paul was angry about this, and said do not burden the gentiles with such things.

I will believe scripture over your theology, touché

I will not respond anymore, you will not change my theology and it seems you still want to live under the rules of moses, though I really doubt you are following all 600 some of those rules.

God bless

 

[tzadik]

go ahead and live by the laws of the OT, like I said, have you stoned to death a homosexual lately?

Why don't you practice it? Is it not because it would go against God's Will outlined in His Word??

Matthew 5, Jesus is teaching the crowd His purpose is to fulfill the Law, He teaches the crowd "Don’t misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to accomplish their purpose."

Immediately followed by NOTHING will pass from the Law that I came to fulfill until HEAVEN and EARTH pass and EVERYTHING is accomplished. Do you live in a heavenless, earthless part of the world were Messiah has already come back a second time?

Why, because we could never follow the law,

Really? How about everyone KEEPING, OBEYING, FOLLOWING the Law of God before Yeshua was even around. What does Luke 1:6 say...doesn't it say that they KEPT God's Commandments and the Law? hmmm. How about Yeshua's own words in Matthew 5:19, doesn't He explicitly say that those who KEEP His Father's commandments and teaches them will be great in the Kingdom? What about God in Deuteronomy 30:11, doesn't He say that HIs Law is not too difficult to keep, but near that we would observe it? I think you need to re-check your Bible. Cuz Everywhere I see God's Law being spoken of, it not only says it's keepable, but BLESSED

Peter, and some of the Church's kept trying to go back to the rules they lived by before the covenant of grace, Paul was angry about this, and said do not burden the gentiles with such things.

You must be talking about a different Paul than the one in the Bible cuz He died confessing to be a Law-observant believer. Acts 24:14, Acts 20:24.
Cheers.

 

[LLWHA]

Jesus said, "I am The Way, the Truth and the Life" and "no man comes to the Father except by me." The Covenant is called "The Way" in The Torah and Jesus was saying that he was a living demonstration of it (The Way) in action, demonstrating how YOU have to be if YOU want to survive and go home to Father.

Jesus came to abolish the priesthood except for himself alone as the sole representative of the priesthood, being both High-Priest and King, after the order of Melchizedek.
He told his followers including the apostles and it is written in the Gospel of Matthew, that they must not be priests (rabbi) and must not be called father:-

23:8 But be not ye called priest (etc.): for One is your Teacher, [even] Christ; and all ye are brethren.
23:9 And call no [man] your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
23:10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, [even] Christ.

Jesus told his TRUE followers, and it is written, again in Matthew, that they must NOT go to church and must NOT pray in church or in public, as the hypocrites DO.

6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt NOT be as the hypocrites [ARE]: for they love to pray standing in the churches and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. (They wanted to be seen by men and they have been).
6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and WHEN THOU HAST SHUT THY DOOR, pray to thy Father in private (telepathically); and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. (Because He will answer you because you obeyed His instructions about how to do it, and when He does you will be so amazed that everyone will notice the change in you).

Therefore the parts of The Old Covenant that relate to the priesthood, churches and the animal sacrifices, for redemption from sin, are now OBSOLETE.

5:17 Think [SIZE=+1]not[SIZE=+1] that I am come to destroy The Law, or the Prophets: I am [SIZE=+1]not [/SIZE][SIZE=+1]come to destroy, but to [/SIZE][SIZE=+1]fulfill[/SIZE][SIZE=+1].
5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, [/SIZE][SIZE=+1]one jot or one tittle[/SIZE][SIZE=+1] shall [/SIZE][SIZE=+1]in no way[/SIZE][SIZE=+1] pass from [/SIZE][SIZE=+1]The Law[/SIZE][SIZE=+1], till [/SIZE][SIZE=+1]all[/SIZE][SIZE=+1] be fulfilled.[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]

"Millions[SIZE=+1] of mischievous people who [SIZE=+1]misquote[SIZE=+1] the letters of Paul and say that The Law itself was abolished, and that everyone can therefore break The Law with impunity, just as long as they say the words "I believe that Jesus is the Son of God", [/SIZE][SIZE=+1]will burn[/SIZE][SIZE=+1], exactly as God says, [/SIZE][SIZE=+1]for [/SIZE][SIZE=+1]their [/SIZE][SIZE=+1]crimes[/SIZE][SIZE=+1] of misleading people and [/SIZE][SIZE=+1]calling Jesus a liar[/SIZE][SIZE=+1], along with the millions who were misled from The Way, by them, because they chose to believe [/SIZE][SIZE=+1]not[/SIZE][SIZE=+1] the Truth (2 Thessalonians 2:10-12)." Jesus said, "He that is [/SIZE][SIZE=+1]not with[/SIZE][SIZE=+1] (and fighting [/SIZE][SIZE=+1]for[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]) me, [/SIZE][SIZE=+1]is[/SIZE][SIZE=+1] (automatically) [/SIZE][SIZE=+1]AGAINST[/SIZE][SIZE=+1] me." [/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]J.A.Hill[/SIZE]

 

[LLWHA]

Why don't you practice it? Is it not because it would go against God's Will outlined in His Word??


Immediately followed by NOTHING will pass from the Law that I came to fulfill until HEAVEN and EARTH pass and EVERYTHING is accomplished. Do you live in a heavenless, earthless part of the world were Messiah has already come back a second time?

Really? How about everyone KEEPING, OBEYING, FOLLOWING the Law of God before Yeshua was even around. What does Luke 1:6 say...doesn't it say that they KEPT God's Commandments and the Law? hmmm. How about Yeshua's own words in Matthew 5:19, doesn't He explicitly say that those who KEEP His Father's commandments and teaches them will be great in the Kingdom? What about God in Deuteronomy 30:11, doesn't He say that HIs Law is not too difficult to keep, but near that we would observe it? I think you need to re-check your Bible. Cuz Everywhere I see God's Law being spoken of, it not only says it's keepable, but BLESSED

You must be talking about a different Paul than the one in the Bible cuz He died confessing to be a Law-observant believer. Acts 24:14, Acts 20:24.
Cheers.

Gods Law should be enforced 24/7 and we should end this Babylonian market system, its usury, the demon-crazy idol worshiping government systems and live in peace and harmony obeying God.

 

[woodpecker]

LLWA, I am having trouble understanding your reasoning of Scripture, first you say we no longer need priest, or sacrifice, but we still need to do everything else in the OT?

so when is the last time you stoned to death a homosexual or an adulterous?

what commands did Jesus tell us to follow?

Luke 10:27 He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.

when we submit to these commands we are following the 10 commandments of the OT, under the Grace of Jesus, for no one could follow the Law, it leads to sin.

1 Peter 2
9 You (any born again believer) are royal PRIEST, a holy nation (not modern day Israel, but all those who believe in the Messiah), God’s very own possession.

As a result, you can show others the goodness of God, for he called you out of the darkness into his wonderful light.

10“Once you had no identity as a people;
now you are God’s people.
Once you received no mercy;
now you have received God’s mercy.”

Jesus said my yoke is light, and mercies are new everyday!! Thank you Jesus!!

 

[mothcorrupteth]

If Jesus nailed the OT to the cross with his death and came to bring a new covenant how come some Christians point to the OT to defend certain ideas? Aren't those ideas null and void since in Jeremiah 31 the prophecy was that the Chosen People did not obey the law and therefore a new covenant was made?

For the most part, the New Covenant is not new in terms of content. The content is mostly the same: we must repent unto life, we are justified by faith in the Christ, and being justified we are expected to obey the commands of God. The only thing that has changed is the ceremonies that teach this covenant of grace. Whereas the doctrines of grace were once taught with the many shadows of animal sacrifices and dietary laws, they are now taught to us more clearly with the preaching of the Word and the Sacraments. Also, given that the body politic of Israel is expired, many of its laws are expired, such as the laws about how to go about conquering the Promised Land. However, the moral law forever binds both Jew and Gentile alike and is common to both Old and New Covenant.

That there is such a division in the Law of Moses--into ceremonial, civil, and moral--is never explicitly stated, but it is readily inferred when one reads Scripture. For a full defense of this "threefold division," I would recommend reading From the Finger of God by Philip S. Ross, but I will attempt to give an abbreviated form of the arguments he advances in 350 pages. For starters, the prophets' common message that God desires mercy and not sacrifice not only speaks to a division of the Law, but to a priority of different parts of it. Second, there is the repeated reference to "statutes and ordinances" that are to be practiced "in the land," as opposed to laws that the Israelites are to observe while they are still in the wilderness; this also suggests a distinction and priority. And third, we cannot reconcile Jesus with Paul without posing a distinction.

Paul makes explicit reference to elements of the law that are being done away with (Eph. 2:15-16; Col. 2:14-17). Luke (Paul's documentarian) records the Jerusalem Council deciding that certain elements of the law are unnecessary to be observed (Acts 15:1-35). Then there's also the book of Hebrews, which is one long tract (possibly a prepared sermon) on why the old sacrificial system is now abolished. Yet Jesus says, "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished" (Mt. 5:17-20). If the the Law is one indivisible whole, then how can we reconcile Jesus with Paul (and Hebrews)? One says part of the law is abrogated, the other says it will continue until the end of time. Reconciling the two is easy, if we don't fall into hyper-literalism. Paul is clearly talking about ceremonial and religious rites that were closely connected with the Temple worship. Jesus, however, is delivering a sermon on moral duties. There is, then at least a distinction between moral laws and ceremonial laws--a distinction also made by the Prophets, as I noted a moment ago. The ceremonial laws stop with the heavenly enthronement of Christ (cf. Dan. 9:27), whereas not one iota of the moral laws will ever cease until the end of the world.

What then of civil laws? There is no clear proof text to show that any or all of these have expired, the way that there is clear evidence that the moral law continues and the ceremonial law is abrogated. Dying, Jacob prophesies, "The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from between his feet, until Shiloh comes; and to him shall be the obedience of the peoples" (Gen. 29:10), which suggests a definite time at which the state of Israel would expire (and so it did, historically), but this isn't crystal clear. Really, the conclusion that many, if not all, of the civil laws expired mostly comes from the observation that Peter tells his Jewish audience to submit not to the political laws of Israel but to the political laws of Asia Minor as a Roman province: "Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme, or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do evil and to praise those who do good" (1 Pet. 2:13-14).

So, now that I've laid out the background of the threefold division and the arguments for it, let's answer your original question, AChristian4Life. Christians who are knowledgeable about the threefold distinction point to certain portions of the Old Testament to prove certain ideas (such as that homosexuality is morally evil) because they believe that those portions are part of the eternally binding moral law, rather than one of the civil laws that have passed away or the ceremonial law that was abrogated. That is not to say that civil and ceremonial laws are worthless. Many of the laws of Moses are mixed categories. That's why the Christians of the Westminster Assembly (1645-1648) regarded many of the "civil" laws outside of the Ten Commandments as properly moral laws. And moreover, the book of Hebrews explains in exhaustive detail what New Covenant realities the Old Covenant ceremonial laws were portraying. Christ also explained this symbolism to his disciples (Lk. 24:27). But when it comes to issues of morality, we refer to the OT because "the moral law does forever bind all" (Westminster Confession, xix.5).

 

[mothcorrupteth]

so when is the last time you stoned to death a homosexual or an adulterous?

what commands did Jesus tell us to follow?

Jesus implied that we should continue to uphold the capital punishments of the Old Testament. He criticizes the Pharisees for not upholding the capital punishment for incorrigible children: "And why do you break the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? For God commanded, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.’ But you say, ‘If anyone tells his father or his mother, “What you would have gained from me is given to God,” he need not honor his father.’ So for the sake of your tradition you have made void the word of God" (Mt. 15:3-6). To clarify, the Pharisees were saying that a man could neglect the financial needs of his parents by declaring in an oath that his financial resources are dedicated to God. Jesus' beef with the Pharisees was that they were not teaching the capital punishment prescribed by the Law.

Moreover, the law isn't that you just stone to death anybody who is homosexual or an adulterer. There must be a definite, witnessed act that two or three people can testify about. And not just anybody is permitted to stone anyone else. The witnesses cast the first stone, and they can only do so after the judge rules for the person's guilt. If the person is declared innocent, then the witness was false and was to be put to death. If we honored these moral standards in our own law systems, sexual immorality would be driven underground instead of being paraded in our faces.

 

[woodpecker]

Jesus criticized the Pharisees for many things, why, to show them the true nature of their hearts.

The sermon on the mount teaches us that the laws of Moses were not even close to how holy God truly is.

Jesus teaches, Divorce should not be permitted as Moses taught, but only if the spouse is an adulterous.
Jesus teaches it is not the act of murder that condemns you, but just the thought of hate against your neighbor, is murder in your heart, the same goes with lust, it is adultery.

All this to say without Christ we are retched, nothing we do can ever save us from sins that lead us to hell.

We are to live holy lives with the help of the Holy Spirit, if we do not submit to the Spirit, we live not for God, but for self.

Love God,
love your neighbor as yourself,
feed the hungry,
help the sick,
take care of the orphans and widows,
visit those in prison,
for when you do these things you do them unto the Lord.

faith=works

faith saves, the holy spirit leads to works, and repentances, when needed.

 

[LLWHA]

LLWA, I am having trouble understanding your reasoning of Scripture, first you say we no longer need priest, or sacrifice, but we still need to do everything else in the OT?

so when is the last time you stoned to death a homosexual or an adulterous?

what commands did Jesus tell us to follow?

Luke 10:27 He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.

when we submit to these commands we are following the 10 commandments of the OT, under the Grace of Jesus, for no one could follow the Law, it leads to sin.

1 Peter 2
9 You (any born again believer) are royal PRIEST, a holy nation (not modern day Israel, but all those who believe in the Messiah), God’s very own possession.

As a result, you can show others the goodness of God, for he called you out of the darkness into his wonderful light.

10“Once you had no identity as a people;
now you are God’s people.
Once you received no mercy;
now you have received God’s mercy.”

Jesus said my yoke is light, and mercies are new everyday!! Thank you Jesus!!

If you love the Lord Your God, Love Good and Truth then you shall love, honour, cherish and obey the Lord your God with ALL your heart, with ALL your mind, with ALL your soul and with ALL your strength and Him ONLY shall you serve and OBEY, forsaking ALL others.


If you do this you should Honour your Father in Heaven and KEEP His COMMANDMENTS; LAWS; Statutes; Judgements; Economic Policy; Agricultural Policy and Diet.

When Jesus said you should not judge people its because God the Father had set His Judgements for mankind in the Torah.
Judging is God's job exclusively, as He is always unbiased, impartial, uncorruptible and just. He has given His judgements, in His Law Books given to you at Mt. Sinai, by which He judges those who break His Laws. There are NO other laws on this planet that are LEGAL. God has strictly FORBIDDEN man from making up laws (Deuteronomy 4:2). God's Laws are the same for everyone. God does NOT have separate Laws - one for the rich and another one for the poor as we have today under man made fake laws. Not following Gods Holy Law is what leads to sin.

I follow Jesus Christ and His and Fathers message not Peter or Paul.
2:9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal channel, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of Him who hath called you out of darkness into His marvellous Light:

People now follow and obey House of Lords or Some CON that gives them their rights and restricts them. We as Followers Of Jesus Christ and our Father in Heaven have God given rights and His Law and Jesus' Law to follow. We are under ORDERS to OBEY and Follow and Enforce Gods Law and Order. Its not being done and we are ruled by mass-murdering banker, gangster criminals that have made most people and governments on earth their slaves.

3:14 Ye have said, It [is] worthless to serve God: and what profit [is it] that we have kept His Ordinance, and that we have walked solemnly before the "I AM" Lord of hosts?
3:15 And now we call the proud happy; yea, they that work wickedness are set up; yea, [they that] tempt God are even saved.
3:16 Then they that feared the "I AM" spoke often one to another: and the "I AM" hearkened, and heard [it], and a Book of Remembrance was written before Him for them that feared the "I AM", and that thought upon His name.
3:17 And they shall be Mine, saith the "I AM" Lord of hosts, in that day when I make up My special treasure; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him
3:18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth Him not (Rev. 20:12-15; 21:27).
4:1 For, behold, the Day cometh, that shall burn like an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the "I AM" Lord of hosts, that it shall leave of them neither root nor branch (nothing).
4:2 But unto you that fear My name shall the Sun of Righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in The Day that I shall do [this], saith the "I AM" Lord of hosts.
4:4 Remember ye and return to The Law of Moses My servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, [with] the Statutes and Judgments.

Its your to choose, rule by House of Lords, president congress or Enforcing Gods Commandments. Will you "tread down the wicked" or go to the fire?
"And greetings in the markets, and to be called by men, Priest, Rabbi, Imam, etc.
But be not ye called priest (etc.): for One is your Teacher, [even] Christ; and all ye are brethren.
And call no [man] your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, [even] Christ." Jesus

 

[razeontherock]

If Jesus nailed the OT to the cross with his death and came to bring a new covenant how come some Christians point to the OT to defend certain ideas? Aren't those ideas null and void since in Jeremiah 31 the prophecy was that the Chosen People did not obey the law and therefore a new covenant was made?

No, the ideas aren't necessarily invalid; not unless you're promoting keeping the Law. Christ said those Scriptures testify of Him!

 

[someguy14]

Fulfill, accomplish. Spotless lamb. Worthy to do all that is required.
Stealing is still against God.

 

[razeontherock]

Why would God create laws only to later change them? Unless these laws weren't created by God at all and just the people of the time hence why Jesus said they no longer apply.

This is not a good way of looking at it.

Romans 7:12 Wherefore the law [is] holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good."

Fortunately, we are not under the Law. There is lots to the OT that isn't law (Of any sort)

 

[msortwell]

There remains in Christendom division regarding the proper role of God’s law for the NT believer. To examine the possibilities it is often of value to examine each possibility individually. First, we will limit our examination to whether or not the law is intended to have a role in the life of the NT believer. If it is concluded that the answer is, ‘yes’ we will examine what role or roles it should play. First, two possibilities will be explored.

1. The law has no role in the life of the NT believer.
2. The law has some role in the life of the NT believer.

Do the Scriptures teach, either directly or indirectly, that the NT believer is to make use of the law? Yes. Consider the following Scripture.

2 Tim 3:16-17
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. (KJV)

To answer other than ‘yes’ to the question I posed above, is to declare the law to be other than inspired text. Few Christians would take such a position. They would require us to believe that the law is of SOME use to the Christian. Now we are faced with the more difficult question regarding how the Christian should make use of the law.

To make this determination we will begin by determining if, and how, Christians are instructed during NT times to consider the implications of OT law upon how they should conduct themselves.

In some cases the OT law is essentially quoted. And the clear intent is that the recipients follow the instruction provided in the Law.

Consider James’ NT warning . . .

James 2:8-9
8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you do well;
9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. (NKJ)

. . . and the OT basis for that instruction.

Lev 19:15
15 Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honour the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour.
(KJV)

Consider Peter’s Command . . .

1 Pet 1:15-16
15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. (KJV)

. . . and the origins of that command.

Lev 11:44
44 For I am the LORD your God: ye shall therefore sanctify yourselves, and ye shall be holy; for I am holy: neither shall ye defile yourselves with any manner of creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. (KJV)

Lev 19:2
2 Speak unto all the congregation of the children of Israel, and say unto them, Ye shall be holy: for I the LORD your God am holy. (KJV)

Lev 20:7-8
7 Sanctify yourselves therefore, and be ye holy: for I am the LORD your God.
8 And ye shall keep my statutes, and do them: I am the LORD which sanctify you. (KJV)

And . . .

Rom 12:19
19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. (KJV)

Deut 32:35
35 To me belongeth vengeance, and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste. (KJV)

Paul also directly invoked the authority of one of the 10 Commandments.

Eph 6:1-3
1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.
2 Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise
3 That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth. (KJV)

Exod 20:12
12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee. (KJV)

In each of these cases, the authority of God’s law is considered sufficient to inform the NT Believer regarding what ought or ought not to be done.

One NT author, under the inspiration of the Spirit of God, applied the OT law as “case law,” using it as the source of a precept having more broad application in NT days.

1 Tim 5:17-18
17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward. (KJV)

Deut 25:4
4 Thou shalt not muzzle the ox when he treadeth out the corn. (KJV)

Again, in each case there is a direct reference to the law of God. In each case the instruction is to Christians within whom resides the Holy Ghost. And although it can be assured that the Spirit of God was a participant in the recipients’ ability to accept and apply the instruction, there is no direction from the NT teachers to specifically seek a Spiritual unction. Rather, direct reference is made to the law of God.

So we have seen clearly that the Law of God is, at times, treated as authoritative by the NT Authors. But is all of “the Law” to be treated equally? The Scriptures provide this answer as well.

Two aspects/categories of OT Law seem to have been fulfilled in Christ, bringing their purpose to fulfillment and their mandated observance to an end.

The dietary laws, along with the laws regarding particular days and dietary practices . . .

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]:
Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body [substance] [is] of Christ. (Col 2:16,17)

This would seem to clearly indicate that the laws governing food, drink, and OT observances were a picture/shadow of Christ and therefore no longer in effect while we are in Christ, (i.e., now that their purpose has been fulfilled).

The ceremonial laws regarding the sacrificial system . . .

From Heb 8

Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, [that] thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount. But now hath he [Christ] obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

From Heb 9

[It was] therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, [which are] the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

Clearly the OT worship and sacrificial laws were intended as a precursor to, and picture of, that which was fulfilled in Christ.

This seems to be part of what was meant in Heb 7:11-12 wherein it states, “Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be called according to the order of Aaron? For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.” [Emphasis Added]

This general principle, the cessation of observing some of the OT laws, while upholding others seems to be succinctly illustrated in the following verse.

1 Cor 7:19
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God. (KJV)

The aggregate indicates that those laws, ceremonies, and observances that foreshadowed or otherwise pictured the Christ who would come have been fulfilled in Him and therefore, the related laws and observances themselves, abrogated.

Clearly, none of this text teaches contrary to the commands to the believer to walk after the Spirit. Neither does it challenge the clear teaching that we cannot be justified (judged to be righteous) under the light of the law, but are fully dependent upon, and trusting in, the grace of God for our salvation – our right standing with Him.

Still, it is God’s law that reflects for the world His standard for righteousness, and we ought to be pleased and constrained to walk in obedience to it. What that means, exactly, remains a subject with which we might wrestle.

 

[visionary]

at least you hold to the moral laws.. ever wonder why the Jews get to be on the elders' seats and the judges' seats in His Kingdom...