How would "post-tribbers" respond to the excerpt below?

[CGL1023]

"A post tribulation (rapture) perspective would lead us to store up food and survival equipment out of fear. How can our children grow in their love for the Lord when they believe that He (God) will make them endure years of undeserved judgment and punishment? They would be subjected to seeing their friends, neighbors and relatives dying all around them."

This excerpt is from a report entitled "The Rapture Explained" by Linda Vegh. Her report on the Rapture takes the Pre-Tribulation point of view.

 

[ewq1938]

"A post tribulation (rapture) perspective would lead us to store up food and survival equipment out of fear. How can our children grow in their love for the Lord when they believe that He (God) will make them endure years of undeserved judgment and punishment? They would be subjected to seeing their friends, neighbors and relatives dying all around them."

This basically ignores all of history where God's people have suffered at various times. It's just the way it is.

Joh_16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Act_14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Rom_8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?



Paul is clear the rapture happens after the resurrection and the resurrection happens after the second coming. There is no pre-trib rapture in scripture.


1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Context is the second coming!

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Context is the second coming!

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

This is the second coming!


1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


This is the rapture! The Greek word for rapture is harpazo and that's the term used by Paul!

So, the proper order of events according to scripture:

1. the second coming begins/Christ leaves heaven. (1Th 4:16) (this doesn't happen until the tribulation has ended, Mat_24:29)
2. the resurrection. (dead saints resurrect bodily in heaven and follow Christ as he returns to the Earth-second coming) (1Th 4:14-16)
3. the rapture. (living saints on Earth are gathered together from where ever they are on the Earth in order to meet Christ in the clouds when he arrives)(1Th 4:17)
This proves the pre-trib (and mid-trib) rapture to be false because the second coming comes after the tribulation not before or during it, Mat 24:29-30

 

[John Hyperspace]

"A post tribulation (rapture) perspective would lead us to store up food and survival equipment out of fear.

I believe in a "post-trib catching up" and have not stored a single thing. I certainly have no "fear" of anything. I look forward to the hardships, and the strengthening of my faith and hope, and my reliance on God alone during such times. I'm always surprised by those who seek to "flee from hardship" and can only presume they don't understand what trials and tribulations give to the faithful; let alone GREAT trial and tribulation.

How can our children grow in their love for the Lord when they believe that He (God) will make them endure years of undeserved judgment and punishment?

I would first question why the writer is suggesting that this would not be "deserved"; since if they are experiencing it, it must be necessary. I would also question the teachings which are being taught to the "children" if these teachings have not made clear and understandable to the child, the purpose of tribulation, and chastisement.

They would be subjected to seeing their friends, neighbors and relatives dying all around them."

This is something everyone is subject to, at all times. That this person even brings this line of reasoning to the front shows me that this writer is very shallow and egocentric. Does the writer not know that Christian children are experiencing this right now, in the world, on a daily basis? Or, does this writer feel that Christian children in persecuted countries "don't matter to God" and only the writer's "precious loved ones" should be free of subjection to witnessing atrocities?

 

[John Davidson]

"A post tribulation (rapture) perspective would lead us to store up food and survival equipment out of fear. How can our children grow in their love for the Lord when they believe that He (God) will make them endure years of undeserved judgment and punishment? They would be subjected to seeing their friends, neighbors and relatives dying all around them."

This excerpt is from a report entitled "The Rapture Explained" by Linda Vegh. Her report on the Rapture takes the Pre-Tribulation point of view.

And yet there has been suffering, dying, and tribulation for the past 2,000 years.

 

[keras]

"A post tribulation (rapture) perspective would lead us to store up food and survival equipment out of fear. How can our children grow in their love for the Lord when they believe that He (God) will make them endure years of undeserved judgment and punishment? They would be subjected to seeing their friends, neighbors and relatives dying all around them."

What this shows is a complete lack of understanding of God's plans for His people.
What is coming will be the great test of our faith and for those who stand firm and call out to the Lord for His protection on the terrible Day of the Lord's wrath; the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster, will receive His protection. Isaiah 43:2, Psalms 50:3-6
There is no need to store food, because the Lord has promised to care for His people. Isaiah 35:1-10, Ezekiel 36:8-12, Amos 9:13-15

 

[Postvieww]

To store food or not is not the question. To obey God or not, is the question. If you feel led by God to store food you better store food or suffer the consequences.

Noah obeyed God and stored food. Genesis 6:21, Genesis 7:5

Joseph obeyed God and stored food. Genesis 41:48-49

If God tells you to go here or there and take no provisions He will provide. If He tells you prepare then that is His provision.

For those that think making no preparation for anything is a badge of holiness, better reconsider before you find yourself in a mess.

Matthew 10:7-14

1 Timothy 5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

Proverbs 6:6-11

Luke 12:29 And seek not ye what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink, neither be ye of doubtful mind.

30 For all these things do the nations of the world seek after: and your Father knoweth that ye have need of these things.

31 But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Proverbs 28:19

Passages that seem to contradict actually do not, obeying and seeking God first is the theme.

 

[Straightshot]

Some people do not understand the difference between the trials and tribulations of this present life and the coming of the Lord's wrath and judgment upon an unbelieving world

The purpose for the coming tribulation is punish a lost world of unbelief, so severe that billions will die in its wake [Psalms 2; Revelation 6:12-17]

The Lord will not subject His true ecclesia living at the time to this unprecedented unmitigated upheaval that is coming

Those who have been blindsided by the false teachings of men on the matter are heading for a dangerous place to be with little chance to repent

The period will last for 2550 days and if anyone thinks that they can store up anything for surviving they are fooling themselves

If you are one of them better think again

Tell the forum how you have prepared so far and how you intend to escape the Lord's wrath upon the earth during the tribulation

 

[Postvieww]

Some people do not understand the difference between the trials and tribulations of this present life and the coming of the Lord's wrath and judgment upon an unbelieving world

The purpose for the coming tribulation is punish a lost world of unbelief, so severe that billions will die in its wake [Psalms 2; Revelation 6:12-17]

The Lord will not subject His true ecclesia living at the time to this unprecedented unmitigated upheaval that is coming

Those who have been blindsided by the false teachings of men on the matter are heading for a dangerous place to be with little chance to repent

The period will last for 2550 days and if anyone thinks that they can store up anything for surviving they are fooling themselves

If you are one of them better think again

Tell the forum how you have prepared so far and how you intend to escape the Lord's wrath upon the earth during the tribulation

There is no pretrib rapture escape to heaven unless you die in Christ!

Daniel 7:21

Daniel 7:25

Revelation 13:7

Revelation 6:9

Revelation 7:14

Revelation 20:4

2 Thessalonians 2:3

John 17:15

John 6:39-40

John 6:44

John 6:54

Matthew 16:27 Revelation 11:18

Matthew 24:29-31

 

[Goatee]

Put all your faith in God. No need to store things, build big tunnels or hide under ground!

 

[Straightshot]

"There is no pretrib rapture escape to heaven unless you die in Christ!"


There will not a be call for you .... no doubt

Your statement is exactly the position of the RCC

You can team up with ant

 

[Goatee]

"There is no pretrib rapture escape to heaven unless you die in Christ!"


There will not a be call for you .... no doubt

Your statement is exactly the position of the RCC

You can team up with ant

Put 'ALL' your faith in Jesus. /End thread!

 

[Another Lazarus]

Luke 17:36 "Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other will be left."
34 I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left.

Why would God need to take them away ?

May Jesus bless you all HalleluYAH

 

[tatteredsoul]

"A post tribulation (rapture) perspective would lead us to store up food and survival equipment out of fear. How can our children grow in their love for the Lord when they believe that He (God) will make them endure years of undeserved judgment and punishment? They would be subjected to seeing their friends, neighbors and relatives dying all around them."

This excerpt is from a report entitled "The Rapture Explained" by Linda Vegh. Her report on the Rapture takes the Pre-Tribulation point of view.

I would respond:

Eden, and having to go through losing actual perfection, and growing old (eventually dying.)

The Deluge/Flood: had to watch the entire planetary life die before you.

Exodus: had to watch the entire culture/home only known thus far be completely destroyed - including the power and faith you had in the 10 specific Egyptian gods God embarrassed.

Post Exodus: seeing your newly-saved family go back to their ways, and die out over several decades.

Nephilim/Anakim/Emim/Rephaim: These entities aND their remnant terrorized the Hebrews. They enticed the Hebrews to sacrifice their own children, practice witchcraft and even ate them.

Christ: imagine the trauma of the believers seeing their Savior tortured to death by the tyrannical Roman government.


The tribulation will be a horrible time. But, God does not REMOVE us, nor has He ever removed us from TEOTWAWKI situations. He always gives us a way through it, and protects His faithful. The tribulation is no different.

God isn't angry at us, so His faithful won't be judged. He has already said this. But, the world is not majority faithful. He isn't going to, therefore, remove the witnesses He knows from the event.

Also, there has to be people left to teach the people who/what the Antichrist actually is. Because, remember this beast will be so convincing that even the "elect" would be deceived if it was possible. So, surely the unfaithful world would not recognize the entity - they will need some help.

People alive today are being tortured and mutilated in horrible ways just for being Christian. The West may not have had its time of trying yet (although, the last 600+ years of Western imperialism was a trial for indigenous peoples,) but that isn't to say it is because it is warded from the tribuations that are to come.

In Daniel there is no distinction between, or a breakup of tribulations. There are no 144,000, or "Two" witnesses, there are only the "wise ones." And, it specifically details their jobs, and how long they should ENDURE. This is an endurance trial, and part of the endurance is WITNESSING God is a Man of His Word.

 

[Postvieww]

Luke 17:36 "Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other will be left."
34 I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left.

Why would God need to take them away ?

May Jesus bless you all HalleluYAH

Look at verse 37 to find where they are taken, it’s not heaven!

Luke 17:37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

Sounds a lot like:

Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Ezekiel 39:17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord God; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.

18 Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.

19 And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.

20 Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord God.

21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.


Luke 17:34-37 is not about a rapture to heaven! Just look at Luke 17:26-30 those taken were destroyed.

 

[Straightshot]

"Luke 17:36 "Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other will be left."

This scripture has nothing to do with the Lord's pre-tribulation call for His true ecclesia

It is about Israel during the tribulation .... those taken will be killed in the Lord's judgment, and those left will enter His millennial kingdom upon the earth

He is going to pressure the nation and 1/3 will turn to Him as Messiah and King .... the balance will be killed in unbelief [Jeremiah 13:8-9; Ezekiel 20:33-44]

 

[ewq1938]

Luke 17:36 "Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other will be left."
34 I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left.

Why would God need to take them away ?

To fulfill prophecy concerning the rapture.

 

[tatteredsoul]

To fulfill prophecy concerning the rapture.

I do sort of hope there is a "rapture," mainly for my family. But, I personally have become too invested in this spiritual war. As crazy as it sounds, I actually want to see it to as far of an end as God allows me - horror and all.

Not because I am bloodthirsty, but because I want to be a witness to the prophecies yet to be fulfilled.

With that said, I don't see much or any scripture that definitively proves God (or His character) would rapture the "good ones," and leave everyone else to be damned by demons, terrestrial upheaval, and war.

Why is this such an accepted doctrine (and, I am being sincere)?

 

[Straightshot]

"Not because I am bloodthirsty, but because I want to be a witness to the prophecies yet to be fulfilled."


If you are a true Christian you will witness the tribulation period as an immortal .... from the heavenly state of existence [Revelation 19:1-9]

Here is the proof of the immortal pre-tribulation church dwelling heaven during the tribulation [Revelation 3:10; 4:4; 5:1-10; 7:9-17; 11:1; 13:6; 17:4; 18:4; 19:1-9; 19:14; 20:4 [those already on thrones]]

 

[keras]

If you are a true Christian you will witness the tribulation period as an immortal .... from the heavenly state of existence [Revelation 19:1-9]

Here is the proof of the immortal pre-tribulation church dwelling heaven during the tribulation [Revelation 3:10; 4:4; 5:1-10; 7:9-17; 11:1; 13:6; 17:4; 18:4; 19:1-9; 19:14; 20:4 [those already on thrones]]

Tattered Soul, you are correct, in that God never intended humans to go and live in heaven. Straightshot promotes a false, escapist and un-scriptural theory, that conflicts with the many prophesies saying how the Lord's people will go to live in all of the holy Land.

SS Bible quotes that do NOT prove a rapture:
Revelation 19:1-9 - is another description of the souls of the martyrs, kept under the Altar in heaven. Revelation 6:9-11
Revelation 3:10 - The Lord will protect His people from His wrath, removal is not even hinted here.
Revelation 4:4 - maybe you mean 4:2? John is taken to heaven and shown future events. No mention of anyone else in Revelation going there, other than the 2 Witnesses.
Revelation 5:1-10 - This is a flashback to when Jesus appears in heaven at His Ascension. Note God's people will reign with Him ON EARTH.
Revelation 7:9-17 - This is all an earthly scene, up to verse 14, soon after the Sixth Seal and verses 15-17, during the Millennium.
Revelation 11:1 - There will be a 3rd Temple in Jerusalem. Paul proves it in 2 Thess 2:4, plus the many OT prophesies about it. Ezekiel 40-48
Revelation 13:6 - The 'beast' blasphemes everyone, in heaven and on earth. No rapture here!
Revelation 17:4 - The great harlot? The RC church.
Revelation 18:4 - God is saying: Come out of Babylon, not come to heaven!
Revelation 19:14 The armies of heaven, angels, not humans, accompany Jesus at His Return. False exegesis.
Revelation 20:4 - 1 Corinthians 6:2 does say the saints will judge the world, so it be those who have kept their faith during all the testing times before Jesus Returns, who qualify.
Your mis-application and adding to scripture, to promote the rapture, especially Revelation, is a serious mistake and incurs the curse of Revelation 22:18-19