How to Reduce Abortions in the United States

[samir]

No, how did you arrive at that conclusion?

Your faith says Catholic and the Catholic Church says life begins at conception. If you believe that, then I don't think it should make any difference when a child is killed because it's an innocent human being anytime after conception. Why should it matter whether someone murders a child 20, 30, or 50 weeks after conception if his/her life is just as valuable. Do you think women who abort their children 30 weeks after conception should be charged with murder?

 

[samir]

It would only result in poverty or orphanages being overcrowded because you plan on taking at least half the caregivers and breadwinners out of the picture.
We would however still need better social safety nets in place even if abortions were greatly reduced without having to resort to killing women. Are you willing to help build them by fighting for better welfare, universal healthcare, public education, etc

I don't like these kind of questions because it seems to imply that poverty is worse than death which can be used to justify murder. Depending on the number of abortions and amount of money available, it may not be possible to give all of them an optimal lifestyle but I would absolutely support providing them the necessities of life such as food and basic healthcare.

 

[Mountain_Girl406]

Your faith says Catholic and the Catholic Church says life begins at conception. If you believe that, then I don't think it should make any difference when a child is killed because it's an innocent human being anytime after conception. Why should it matter whether someone murders a child 20, 30, or 50 weeks after conception if his/her life is just as valuable. Do you think women who abort their children 30 weeks after conception should be charged with murder?

You're assuming I think abortion shouldn't be illegal. I might well support abortion being illegal but that doesn't mean I support punishing the woman who get abortions by imprisoning or executing them.
It's a combination of nuance and practicality that I've developed by being intimately connected to abortion and adoption issues from a number of sides.
Surprisingly enough, my pro life views have less to do with my Catholic views than my creeping agnosticism. As a Catholic I believe that unborn children are with God, with no chance of being condemned to hell...but my agnostic side says this may well be it, the only shot at life we have, and I want that experience to be available to all concieved.

 

[samir]

You're assuming I think abortion shouldn't be illegal. I might well support abortion being illegal but that doesn't mean I support punishing the woman who get abortions by imprisoning or executing them.

It's a combination of nuance and practicality that I've developed by being intimately connected to abortion and adoption issues from a number of sides.
Surprisingly enough, my pro life views have less to do with my Catholic views than my creeping agnosticism. As a Catholic I believe that unborn children are with God, with no chance of being condemned to hell...but my agnostic side says this may well be it, the only shot at life we have, and I want that experience to be available to all conceived.

I can understand the practicality of it. One reason pro-lifers oppose punishing women is because women won't testify against abortion providers if they could go to prison for it even though in an ideal world they would go to jail since they're guilty of murder.

The current legal situation is odd because each state sets a different age when a fetus is considered a child so performing an abortion at 22 weeks after conception may be legal in one state but result in a murder charge in another state. Women can and have been charged and imprisoned for aborting their children beyond the cutoff date when a fetus is considered a person so it's really a question of why a woman who performs an abortion on herself 15 weeks after conception shouldn't be subject to the same penalty as a woman who performs an abortion on herself 30 weeks after conception.

 

[Mountain_Girl406]

I can understand the practicality of it. One reason pro-lifers oppose punishing women is because women won't testify against abortion providers if they could go to prison for it even though in an ideal world they would go to jail since they're guilty of murder.

The current legal situation is odd because each state sets a different age when a fetus is considered a child so performing an abortion at 22 weeks after conception may be legal in one state but result in a murder charge in another state. Women can and have been charged and imprisoned for aborting their children beyond the cutoff date when a fetus is considered a person so it's really a question of why a woman who performs an abortion on herself 15 weeks after conception shouldn't be subject to the same penalty as a woman who performs an abortion on herself 30 weeks after conception.

Samir, I don't think you are picking up on what I'm saying when I speak about practicality in seeking solutions to stop abortions. I've said my piece and shared some of my experience, and perhaps it's time to bow out and leave you to your views.

 

[Rhamiel]

@samir why do you talk more about punishing the women who hire the abortionists then the actual abortionists?

I am not an expert in legal matters, but do not hitmen get rougher sentences then those who hire the hitman?

 

[Rhamiel]

on a positive note, I think maybe the Catholic Church could bring back orphanages

rather then focus on a foster care system, the bringing back orphanages might do more good

with modern back ground checks, and institutional standards that things like how we run boarding schools
we might be able to have something a lot better then our current foster care system

 

[Rhamiel]

It's Catholic teaching that a child is a human being from the moment of conception so aborting a child prior to delivery is no different than murdering a child after she is born. What do you think about murdering two year old children? Is it judgmental to call it cold-blooded and evil?

well we should take into account that many of these women have been brainwashed since a very young age to think of unborn babies as subhuman

kind of like Nazi propaganda showed Jews as subhuman to make it easier for them to be killed
it is interesting that vile abortionists and Nazis both use the term "parasite" a lot

Might also be with pointing out that promoting the execution of hundreds of thousands of women goes pretty much against Catholic teaching and thus probably doesn't belong in a Catholic forum.

well the teaching is that we should not use the death penalty if we have other options
it could be argued that our culture is so inundated with the culture of death, using harsher punishments might be the only way to get rid of these problems in the culture

Your proposed legislation would accomplish nothing other than to make our country seem like a nation of barbarians.

----edit ---
while he was a bit extreme in his views
I think having a strong sense of law and order, with impartial juries and judges, with a professional police force that has rules of conduct, well even with stricter laws, the case could be made that such a system is less barbaric then the current practice of legal abortion

 

[Godlovesmetwo]

I think living in a country where a mother can, on a whim, choose to have her own unborn child rip apart is rather barbaric

Not sure this kind of emotional terminology is helpful. However, of course I fear that when abortion is readily available , it is abused. Used as a contraceptive in some cases. That is morally wrong and irresponsible I admit.

 

[Rhamiel]

Not sure this kind of emotional terminology is helpful. However, of course I fear that when abortion is readily available , it is abused. Used as a contraceptive in some cases. That is morally wrong and irresponsible I admit.

I agree
but I was responding to someone who already calling people barbarians
but you are right, that is no excuse

 

[samir]

@samir why do you talk more about punishing the women who hire the abortionists then the actual abortionists?

I am not an expert in legal matters, but do not hitmen get rougher sentences then those who hire the hitman?

I'm assuming there wouldn't be any (or very few) abortion doctors if abortion became illegal because they do it for the money and would probably find another career rather than risk going to prison. The pro-abortionists I met at a pro-life rally told me if abortion became illegal women would use coat hangers to perform abortions on themselves.

 

[samir]

well we should take into account that many of these women have been brainwashed since a very young age to think of unborn babies as subhuman

Changing the law would change the perception of unborn babies. The law already considers unborn babies to be human beings after about 6 months after conception and people can be charged with murder for killing an unborn baby that is more than 6 months old. If the law were changed so that killing a 3 month old child carried the same penalty as killing a 6 month old child then society would begin to recognize the 3 month old child as a human being.

kind of like Nazi propaganda showed Jews as subhuman to make it easier for them to be killed
it is interesting that vile abortionists and Nazis both use the term "parasite" a lot

That's a good example. Germans have zero tolerance for Nazism now that they realized the horror of what they did after the law and culture was changed.

 

[s_gunter]

Steve Waldman, the founder of Beliefnet.com, looks seriously at both parties' political positions and success in reducing abortion rates. His conclusions find fault with both approaches--and he suggests cooperation on the mutually acceptable initiatives that would reduce abortion rates. Some of the non-coercive means of reducing abortion--increasing payments for Women, Infants, and Children; improving male employment; sex education (including abstinence education, which could be supported by all faiths) all have been found to reduce abortions.

There is also discussion about how politics often trumps practicality in the pro-life movement. In order to keep the Catholic Church, it opposes contraception. In order to keep the evangelicals, it opposes all types of sex education. In order to keep the conservatives, it alleges that social programs lead to moral decline. The result is that you have a strong pro-life coalition so concerned about keeping all its component groups happy that many initiatives which would greatly reduce abortions are vetoed by one or another of the components.

The impact of overturning Roe v. Wade would not be great.



I would like to see legislators of good faith work together on every aspect of reducing abortion that can be mutually agreed upon. It's a good start, and if they actually did start working together maybe a lot of the wild, mean-spirited accusations that prevail would end as they supported their goal.

As someone else has already pointed out, none of the suggestions are directed at the men involved. Last I checked, it takes both a male or female to create a baby.

While also increasing payments to WIC, how about we also increase child-support payments? Today, the court ordered monthly payments won't even put food on the table for a week. It barely covers diapers for the week. Then, have the courts actually enforce the order. There are way too many women granted child support orders but still do not receive a dime from the baby's father. Same thing with health insurance. Most fathers are court ordered to provide health insurance for their children, but get away with not providing it for years because the court won't enforce the order.

In regards to sex education, don't direct it all at women. Teach the males too. Right now, the abstinence only education is directed only at girls/women, which has the effect of "loose woman" shaming her, but nothing is said about guys "giving it way" to a different woman every night. (Everyone knows that a guy is given a pat on the back for this type behavior while a woman is shamed...)

Pro-lifers: Actually act like your pro-life instead of merely pro-birth. Once the baby is born, don't starve that baby if the woman cannot afford to provide it on her own. Do not take away the safety net (Section 8, SNAP, Medicaid) if the courts won't adequately provide for the child via child support. You do NOT make the slightest bit of difference to a woman approaching the Planned Parenthood doors by bullying her and by telling untruths on your signage or in your chants. If anything, you make her more determined to complete the act. Real help (money to purchase food, shelter, utilities, and medical care) and real support (education on how to care for the little one, helping her find work/daycare she can afford, etc.) goes a long way. Bullying a woman to accept your religious beliefs does not. That only works on those women who are already believers.

 

[s_gunter]

An excellent point. It really is an outrage how a woman can murder another man's child without his knowledge or consent. It's about time we stand up for the rights of men who are fathers.

Without his knowledge: The only way he wouldn't know about it is if he abandoned his baby's mother. If you don't want her doing that, don't abandon your baby's mother. If you're so concerned about "what's yours,"(and a woman's body is NOT yours to treat as you wish, pregnant with your child or not), fully protect and care for "what's yours." Don't make her attempt to get it from you via the courts. Do it voluntarily. Don't force the woman to provide 90% of the care, while you only pay a meager amount, and then whine because that scant amount of your paycheck is taken.

 

[Tallguy88]

The Catholic Church doesn't advocate the death penalty for women who have abortions. And anyone suggesting that as the end goal is doing way more harm to the Pro Life cause than helping it. No reasonable American will support you and will instead vote Pro Choice just to keep extremists like you from killing their sisters and daughters. I know I would.

 

[Tallguy88]

For women who have abortions and need help coping, the Church has an apostolate called Project Rachel:

http://hopeafterabortion.com

 

[samir]

As someone else has already pointed out, none of the suggestions are directed at the men involved. Last I checked, it takes both a male or female to create a baby.

Last I checked, only females can get pregnant so it's her responsibility to keep her legs closed if she can't handle a baby.

While also increasing payments to WIC, how about we also increase child-support payments? Today, the court ordered monthly payments won't even put food on the table for a week. It barely covers diapers for the week. Then, have the courts actually enforce the order. There are way too many women granted child support orders but still do not receive a dime from the baby's father. Same thing with health insurance. Most fathers are court ordered to provide health insurance for their children, but get away with not providing it for years because the court won't enforce the order.

None of those socialist programs existed 100 years ago when abortion was illegal so they really aren't necessary nor a valid excuse to kill one's baby.

In regards to sex education, don't direct it all at women. Teach the males too. Right now, the abstinence only education is directed only at girls/women, which has the effect of "loose woman" shaming her, but nothing is said about guys "giving it way" to a different woman every night. (Everyone knows that a guy is given a pat on the back for this type behavior while a woman is shamed...)

I think most men are aware that having sex may result in a baby. If a woman doesn't want one she just has to say "no" and keep her legs closed.

Pro-lifers: Actually act like your pro-life instead of merely pro-birth. Once the baby is born, don't starve that baby if the woman cannot afford to provide it on her own. Do not take away the safety net (Section 8, SNAP, Medicaid) if the courts won't adequately provide for the child via child support.

It's not my responsibility to take care of other people's children. If women can't afford a baby all they have to do is keep their legs closed. Women who choose to fornicate need to accept the financial consequences of their actions.

You do NOT make the slightest bit of difference to a woman approaching the Planned Parenthood doors by bullying her and by telling untruths on your signage or in your chants. If anything, you make her more determined to complete the act. Real help (money to purchase food, shelter, utilities, and medical care) and real support (education on how to care for the little one, helping her find work/daycare she can afford, etc.) goes a long way. Bullying a woman to accept your religious beliefs does not. That only works on those women who are already believers.

Their conscience should tell them murder is wrong but sometimes they need to be reminded to listen to it. If that makes them more determined, then I'd say that indicates a real hardness of heart and there's not much we can do about it. Offering money and food may help if a woman has no morals but I'd rather put those kinds of women in prison.

 

[Hank77]

I believe ALL life is valuable. Although I don't want to see anyone killed, I realize that putting a few murderers to death to prevent them from murdering millions of innocent people is the best way to preserve life. It's no different than the police killing an active shooter to prevent him from killing more people.

It is very different. A convicted murderer doesn't have to be killed in order to keep them from killing again.

 

[Shiloh Raven]

Regarding post #57 and other posts similar to it in this thread.

If that is the kind of apathetic attitude that comes from being a conservative Christian, then I will gladly remain a liberal non-Christian. And if these posts are suppose to demonstrate the love of God and Christ, then they are an epic fail.

 

[Rhamiel]

Regarding post #57 and other posts similar to it in this thread.

If that is the kind of apathetic attitude that comes from being a conservative Christian, then I will gladly remain a liberal non-Christian. And if these posts are suppose to demonstrate the love of God and Christ, then they are an epic fail.

he has some misplaced zeal


both sides seem to be talking past each other, they view what they see as failings as excuses to not take the other person seriously

"how can you say you care about people when you do not care about the suffering of the poor!"
"how can you say you care about people when you do not care about the killing of the unborn!"

really both sides kind of sound the same