How to Reduce Abortions in the United States

[Mountain_Girl406]

An excellent point. It really is an outrage how a woman can murder another man's child without his knowledge or consent. It's about time we stand up for the rights of men who are fathers.

What about those men who force their girlfriends to have abortions?

 

[samir]

While I do not know you, and while my comment is general, it seems to me that only an exceptionally cold-blooded person could make a blanket judgment about the motives, trials, difficulties, and emotions of many thousands of women about whom the person has absolutely no knowledge.

It's Catholic teaching that a child is a human being from the moment of conception so aborting a child prior to delivery is no different than murdering a child after she is born. What do you think about murdering two year old children? Is it judgmental to call it cold-blooded and evil?

I know you are acting out of your concern for the unborn babies--and perhaps you do not realize that your extremely misguided solution, if enacted, would leave millions of infants, toddlers, and children orphaned

I'm fully aware it would lead to children being orphaned. Since the Catholic Church says unborn babies are human beings just like born babies, if it's okay to murder an unborn baby to avoid poverty then it's okay to murder a baby after it's born to avoid poverty. Do you see the problem with your reasoning?

It used to be legal to kill babies after they were born before Christians fought to make it illegal. Do you opposed what they did given that some of those babies will be orphaned?

That would be just one side-effect of such a misguided solution--millions of orphans, weeping for their mother and cursing the heartless villains who enacted such a law.

There are plenty of people who were adopted at birth who have happy lives. If you were an orphan would you curse the people who saved your life and allowed you to live and consider them heartless villains because they opposed allowing your mother to murder you?

 

[Mountain_Girl406]

Might also be with pointing out that promoting the execution of hundreds of thousands of women goes pretty much against Catholic teaching and thus probably doesn't belong in a Catholic forum.

 

[samir]

What about those men who force their girlfriends to have abortions?

I consider them murderers and am glad it is illegal for men to force their girlfriends to abort.

 

[samir]

Might also be with pointing out that promoting the execution of hundreds of thousands of women goes pretty much against Catholic teaching and thus probably doesn't belong in a Catholic forum.

Mothers who kill their children after they give birth can face the death penalty and that's not opposed to Catholic teaching. It used to be common but is rare now that is it illegal and women who abort their child's lives after birth can be charged with murder. If abortion became illegal and women could be charged with murder then abortion would become extremely rare and very few women would be put to death, far less than the 40 million babies they have murdered since abortion became legal in America.

 

[Mountain_Girl406]

The United States Conference of Catholic Bishops states that "Our fundamental respect for every human life and for God, who created each person in his image, requires that we choose not to end a human life in response to violent crimes if non-lethal options are available."[12]

 

[samir]

The United States Conference of Catholic Bishops states that "Our fundamental respect for every human life and for God, who created each person in his image, requires that we choose not to end a human life in response to violent crimes if non-lethal options are available."[12]

That means if there's another alternative that will deter someone from a violent crime (such as abortion) just as much as the death penalty then the death penalty should be avoided. I agree.

I think the death penalty would be a greater deterent that would save more lives than are killed so it would be permissible. My point wasn't to promote the death penalty. My point is that more needs to be done to save the lives of innocent children who are being murdered. Life in prison is an alternative that I would support.

Since Catholic teaching is that an unborn child's life is just as valuable and just as much of a human being as a born child, I believe the penalty should be the same for both (currently the penalty is life in prison or death penalty).

 

[Mountain_Girl406]

That means if there's another alternative that will deter someone from a violent crime (such as abortion) just as much as the death penalty then the death penalty should be avoided. I agree.

I think the death penalty would be a greater deterent that would save more lives than are killed so it would be permissible. My point wasn't to promote the death penalty. My point is that more needs to be done to save the lives of innocent children who are being murdered. Life in prison is an alternative that I would support.

Since Catholic teaching is that an unborn child's life is just as valuable and just as much of a human being as a born child, I believe the penalty should be the same for both (currently the penalty is life in prison or death penalty).

The point of the above quote is not about a deterrent, but about protecting people from further attacks from a convicted violent offender. In othervwords, in the absence of a prison system, the death penalty might be necessary to protect people from a convicted criminal left alone to wander thr streets.

 

[Fantine]

At the moment abortion is constitutional. Should it eventually be ruled unconstitutional, states would have the ability to decide how they should restrict abortions--or if they should restrict them at all.

So all these women you would like to put to death for having abortions would just go to other states to have abortions. Your proposed legislation would accomplish nothing other than to make our country seem like a nation of barbarians.

 

[samir]

The point of the above quote is not about a deterrent, but about protecting people from further attacks from a convicted violent offender. In othervwords, in the absence of a prison system, the death penalty might be necessary to protect people from a convicted criminal left alone to wander thr streets.

Fine. Would you support life in prison for women who have abortions?

 

[Mountain_Girl406]

There are already lots of great ways to prevent abortion that don't involve criminalizing it. Making it easier for people to adopt, providIng healthcare to all, better sex ed, better parental leave, better access to daycare, quality education for pregnant teens and children, more income support, etc.

 

[Mountain_Girl406]

Fine. Would you support life in prison for women who have abortions?

No, I'm more interested in ending abortion than punishing women. I support ways to do that like the ones I've listed above.

 

[Fantine]

Fine. Would you support life in prison for women who have abortions?

Part of effective advocacy to end abortion involves establishing realistic goals.

It seems as if your goal is designed to elicit shock value, and, since it would only be shared by perhaps .0001% (or less) of the population, it's not very realistic.

 

[samir]

At the moment abortion is constitutional. Should it eventually be ruled unconstitutional, states would have the ability to decide how they should restrict abortions--or if they should restrict them at all.

That would be the situation if Roe vs Wade is overturned but I don't see why we couldn't go further a pass a federal law outlawing abortion in every state.

So all these women you would like to put to death for having abortions would just go to other states to have abortions. Your proposed legislation would accomplish nothing other than to make our country seem like a nation of barbarians.

I wouldn't be opposed to life in prison. Do you believe the Catholic Church is right about life beginning at conception? If so, wouldn't that mean the penalty for women who kill their children in the womb should be the same as the penalty for women who kill their children after birth?

 

[samir]

No, I'm more interested in ending abortion than punishing women. I support ways to do that like the ones I've listed above.

Does that mean you oppose it being illegal for women to kill children after birth?

 

[samir]

Part of effective advocacy to end abortion involves establishing realistic goals.

It seems as if your goal is designed to elicit shock value, and, since it would only be shared by perhaps .0001% (or less) of the population, it's not very realistic.

My point is this - If life begins at conception, then why shouldn't the penalty be the same regardless of the age of the child?

As far as realistic goals, women can already be charged with murder for having an abortion. Although it's legal to abort 20 weeks after conception, a woman who aborts her child 30 weeks after conception can be jailed for murder because the law considers a 30 week old fetus a person.

So the question for someone who believes Catholic teaching that life begins at conception is why shouldn't a woman who aborts a child at 20 weeks suffer the same penalty as a woman who aborts a child at 30 weeks after conception?

 

[Mountain_Girl406]

Another thing...if you're right, and you save millions of babies from being aborted, because you've had their parents imprisoned or executed, then how do you propose they are provided for? It's going to require a level of social safety net that's hard to fathom.
Of course, personally as a liberal I think we can improve our social safety net and reduce abortions while allowing parents to be there to care for and provide for their kids. How do you propose to do it in your scenario? Are you willing to adopt and raise these motherless children and see your taxes go up to make sure they ate all well fed and educated?

 

[Mountain_Girl406]

Does that mean you oppose it being illegal for women to kill children after birth?

No, how did you arrive at that conclusion?

 

[samir]

Another thing...if you're right, and you save millions of babies from being aborted, because you've had their parents imprisoned or executed, then how do you propose they are provided for? It's going to require a level of social safety net that's hard to fathom.

Of course, personally as a liberal I think we can improve our social safety net and reduce abortions while allowing parents to be there to care for and provide for their kids. How do you propose to do it in your scenario? Are you willing to adopt and raise these motherless children and see your taxes go up to make sure they ate all well fed and educated?

I think that is a dangerous argument because you could say the same thing about killing children after birth. During the Roman empire, women who didn't want children would give birth and leave them in the mountains to starve to death or be eaten by lions. Christians opposed and eventually succeeded in making it illegal. I'm sure it resulted in poverty and children being orphans but I think that's better than being killed.

 

[Mountain_Girl406]

I think that is a dangerous argument because you could say the same thing about killing children after birth. During the Roman empire, women who didn't want children would give birth and leave them in the mountains to starve to death or be eaten by lions. Christians opposed and eventually succeeded in making it illegal. I'm sure it resulted in poverty and children being orphans but I think that's better than being killed.

It would only result in poverty or orphanages being overcrowded because you plan on taking at least half the caregivers and breadwinners out of the picture.
We would however still need better social safety nets in place even if abortions were greatly reduced without having to resort to killing women. Are you willing to help build them by fighting for better welfare, universal healthcare, public education, etc