How to co-exist

[mikedsjr]

One thing I'm trying to learn is to be able to co-exist with those i disagree with and are Christians. This is a very very difficult thing for me. Put me in a room of non-christians and I have no expectation level of what they should know or believe. I view them as haters of God so there is not expectation level of moral or spiritual behavior i should expect, unlike my expectation level is with Christians. My biggest issue is what Christians should know from Scripture or interpret it, not how they should act.

So an example of this has now happened at my new church. The Sunday School that I'm in has finished the book of Romans, which I enjoyed, and now has started a video series discussion which Andy Stanley is the speaker. its an 8 week course and this is partially to ties us over until a new church wide study is starting in the fall, which i'm thinking might be the Gospel Project, and I'm excited about that.

So Andy Stanley is the stereotypical preacher I find misses the mark in interpreting Scripture to make a point that Scripture doesn't actually say. For instance, I believe this first video was about Matthew being asked by Jesus, "Follow Me", in which Andy says this is all Jesus asks us to do. Not rules. Not regulations. just follow like Matthew.

I find this completely misses the context. The previous verses where of the lame man asked to rise and take his bed and walk. This was something the man could not do except Jesus commanded it so. And next was Matthew with Jesus saying Follow Me. Again and command incapable of Matthew to do, except Jesus commanding it so.

So at first my response with a bit of angst, while trying not to show it. Then as the video went, then entering conversation in group i stayed silent to gather my thoughts and to try to find something useful to say without showing disagreement with the video and my angst towards Andy, because the leader, and my friend, loves some Andy Stanley and gets fired up.

There were certainly some better things i thought of after the class that i shall at least keep my focus on for the series. But the same issue arises here. There are some here i drastically disagree with here, but I know the same respect and love for one another should be displayed here. But I'm not sure everyone is capable of properly doing this AND disagreeing. I'm not quite sure I am.

Dr. James White went on the Dr. Drew Show to discuss Gay Marriage with other gay people. His first time he wasn't there but on video, and the guest at the show were overly frustrated at Dr. White. The second time around Dr. White went to the studio and received a different reaction despite a very openly view on gay marriage from a Scriptural stance. However Dr. White also used Psychological data that Dr. Drew agreed with to show support for his view. What Dr. White did was educate himself and presented a stance most Christians would probably not do, despite knowing the Scriptural stance more than most Christians and pastors do.

I'm arrogant. I think i know more than most Christians, but I'm also quite immature as well. I have weakness and some fall in the "how to disagree respectfully" area. I try. Its difficult. Usually I end up being quiet in church when I do disagree.

The odds are in a baptist church, where people beleive you can make the choice on your own to be saved, I'm going to disagree with many since my background is calvinistic but also turning Lutheran in many areas. So I'm no stranger to disagreements in church.

Any thoughts on disagreements and how you handle them?

 

[twin1954]

One thing I'm trying to learn is to be able to co-exist with those i disagree with and are Christians. This is a very very difficult thing for me. Put me in a room of non-christians and I have no expectation level of what they should know or believe. I view them as haters of God so there is not expectation level of moral or spiritual behavior i should expect, unlike my expectation level is with Christians. My biggest issue is what Christians should know from Scripture or interpret it, not how they should act.

So an example of this has now happened at my new church. The Sunday School that I'm in has finished the book of Romans, which I enjoyed, and now has started a video series discussion which Andy Stanley is the speaker. its an 8 week course and this is partially to ties us over until a new church wide study is starting in the fall, which i'm thinking might be the Gospel Project, and I'm excited about that.

So Andy Stanley is the stereotypical preacher I find misses the mark in interpreting Scripture to make a point that Scripture doesn't actually say. For instance, I believe this first video was about Matthew being asked by Jesus, "Follow Me", in which Andy says this is all Jesus asks us to do. Not rules. Not regulations. just follow like Matthew.

I find this completely misses the context. The previous verses where of the lame man asked to rise and take his bed and walk. This was something the man could not do except Jesus commanded it so. And next was Matthew with Jesus saying Follow Me. Again and command incapable of Matthew to do, except Jesus commanding it so.

So at first my response with a bit of angst, while trying not to show it. Then as the video went, then entering conversation in group i stayed silent to gather my thoughts and to try to find something useful to say without showing disagreement with the video and my angst towards Andy, because the leader, and my friend, loves some Andy Stanley and gets fired up.

There were certainly some better things i thought of after the class that i shall at least keep my focus on for the series. But the same issue arises here. There are some here i drastically disagree with here, but I know the same respect and love for one another should be displayed here. But I'm not sure everyone is capable of properly doing this AND disagreeing. I'm not quite sure I am.

Dr. James White went on the Dr. Drew Show to discuss Gay Marriage with other gay people. His first time he wasn't there but on video, and the guest at the show were overly frustrated at Dr. White. The second time around Dr. White went to the studio and received a different reaction despite a very openly view on gay marriage from a Scriptural stance. However Dr. White also used Psychological data that Dr. Drew agreed with to show support for his view. What Dr. White did was educate himself and presented a stance most Christians would probably not do, despite knowing the Scriptural stance more than most Christians and pastors do.

I'm arrogant. I think i know more than most Christians, but I'm also quite immature as well. I have weakness and some fall in the "how to disagree respectfully" area. I try. Its difficult. Usually I end up being quiet in church when I do disagree.

The odds are in a baptist church, where people beleive you can make the choice on your own to be saved, I'm going to disagree with many since my background is calvinistic but also turning Lutheran in many areas. So I'm no stranger to disagreements in church.

Any thoughts on disagreements and how you handle them?

First of all disagreeing with some one face to face is much different than disagreeing on a forum. The person can read your tone and body language and see that you are not getting angry but just disagree with them. On a forum it is extremely difficult to communicate tone and emotion. Moreover folks tend to be much more adversarial on a forum because there is anonymity. They feel more free to say things in such a way as to be belligerent.

I think the key is, and this is a do as I say not as I do statement, is to thoughtfully consider what you want to say and how you can say it without be accusing or automatically causing people to throw up walls. It is very hard but try to write your responses in a Word document and read it over again as though you were the other person before posting it.

Those of us who are more mature and knowledgeable in the Scriptures who are trying to teach others have the responsibility to do so in love and care in how we communicate what we want to say.

 

[twin1954]

Steve Brown, of radio fame, has written a book called " How To Talk So People Will Listen". I have read it but I probably need to read it again. It is actually very good.

http://www.amazon.com/How-Talk-People-Will-Listen/dp/0801016487

 

[Soyeong]

Tolerance is being egalitarian towards people and elitist towards ideas. If you are more knowledgeable about Scripture, then you have the responsibility to correct something that you think is false in a way that respects the person and interacts with their view by explaining both why you think it is false and why you think your view is true. I don't think any one of us has a completely correct interpretation of everything in Scripture, so also be open to the possibility that you are the one who is wrong, and be willing carefully consider any rebuttal.

Of course you also need to be careful about when and how you voice your disagreement. Doing it during a sermon would be inappropriate, while talking to your pastor or priest afterwards in private would be better. It seems to me that a discussion group is also an ideal time to voice a disagreement so that you can discuss it.

So Andy Stanley is the stereotypical preacher I find misses the mark in interpreting Scripture to make a point that Scripture doesn't actually say. For instance, I believe this first video was about Matthew being asked by Jesus, "Follow Me", in which Andy says this is all Jesus asks us to do. Not rules. Not regulations. just follow like Matthew.

I wouldn't let this pass either. The goal of a disciple was to learn how to think and act like their rabbi by memorizing everything they taught about how to understand the Torah and by obeying it like they did. In other words, their goal was essentially to become an imitation of their rabbi. Jesus kept the Torah perfectly and taught how to obey it both by word and by example, so learning rules and regulations is an essential part of what it means to follow him and become his disciple. This verse still blows me away every time I read it that Paul was at the point where he could say it:

1 Corinthians 11:1 Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ.

I hope to one day be able to say the same about me.

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

If you have Calvinistic leanings, then I would assume that you do not take too much upon yourself. Is it not the work of the Holy Spirit to draw people to the truth? I would think you'd consider yourself the hammer and not the blacksmith. You say what you know, when it's appropriate to say it, and you say it with love and humility. Whether or not they accept it is their story, and their life, and their relationship with God.

 

[Soyeong]

NT

 

[Avid]

First of all disagreeing with some one face to face is much different than disagreeing on a forum. The person can read your tone and body language and see that you are not getting angry but just disagree with them. On a forum it is extremely difficult to communicate tone and emotion. Moreover folks tend to be much more adversarial on a forum because there is anonymity. They feel more free to say things in such a way as to be belligerent...

My very thoughts as I read the OP and considered how I'd reply.

A big part of this is that preaching (the way I look at most posts I make,) is not always intended to make people feel good, but convey the attitude of God. If we read Jonathan Edwards' "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" with the thought that he was our pal, we may ask, "How is it love to tell someone things that way?"

If we look at this as preaching, and not a personal attack, we may learn something valuable, and shrug off what may otherwise seem to be a very insensitive way of putting things. I listened to a preacher for years who would remind us of how our sensitivities keep us from getting the truth. If we concentrate on how it feels to be humiliated by the truth as it is preached, we miss most or all the true spiritual value!

 

[twin1954]

My very thoughts as I read the OP and considered how I'd reply.

A big part of this is that preaching (the way I look at most posts I make,) is not always intended to make people feel good, but convey the attitude of God. If we read Jonathan Edwards' "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" with the thought that he was our pal, we may ask, "How is it love to tell someone things that way?"

If we look at this as preaching, and not a personal attack, we may learn something valuable, and shrug off what may otherwise seem to be a very insensitive way of putting things. I listened to a preach for years who would remind us of how our sensitivities keep us from getting the truth. If we concentrate on how it feels to be humiliated by the truth as it is preached, we miss most or all the true spiritual value!

As a preacher of the Gospel I can tell you that it is paramount in my heart to reach the heart of those who hear(or read) me.
I preach from my heart trying to reach the hearts of my hearers. But I will not compromise or sugar coat the truth of God because eternal souls are at stake. I do not answer to men I answer to God.

When a man is hired and can be fired he will do what it takes to keep his job. When a man is called and put in the ministry he follows the leading of the Spirit no matter the consequences.

 

[mikedsjr]

Thanks for all the comments. It's food for thought for me. I might feel i know more than others, but it doesn't mean my maturity level is better when discussing. I'm working on it. I have a difficulty with expressing a thought without using the right words that sound less offensive. Honestly a forum seems easier. I can delete what i write and rewrite it. I can't tell you how many times i've done that and then either didn't post or stripped it down to a few comments.

 

[Pedrito]

I float the thought that problems of the type highlighted by mikedsjr may be environmental, and not necessarily correctable.

Some environments have a particular leaning, based on the perspective of a leader like mikedsjr's friend.

Other environments train people to swallow the latest flavour of the month without thinking, when each new one is presented.

That leads to the very common state of people simultaneously holding mutually inconsistent thoughts.

Some people just take a stance and that's it.

Could it be that sometimes the only thing to do for intellectual peace of mind is to look for another fellowship that approaches God's Word with a sense of purpose and detail similar to that evidenced by mikedsjr?

As a tangential case in point to let mikedsjr know that I understand, I once attended a seminar on evangelism. Relationship Evangelism. The attendees were taught how to target individuals and become their “real friends” with the object of converting them, without their targets realising that that was the purpose of the “real friendship”.

Psychological techniques were taught to lead the target to the point where the well-known diagram of two cliffs facing each other, with the person on one side, and God on the other side, and the Cross bridging the gap, could be presented, and an emotional acceptance of Jesus' sacrifice obtained. Once that acceptance was obtained, another person was to be targeted for a new “real friendship”.

I stated at the time (with obvious tongue in cheek):

What a pity St. Paul didn't have these techniques in his day. How much more successful he would have been had he had them! And how much more quickly would the church have grown!

I don't think deception was high on Paul's priority list.

Nor on that of the apostolic church.