How SHOULD Jesus have been sacrificed.

Hedgehog

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Maybe Im just dense, because I had never thought this before, but I had a thought the other day that I had never considered before.

Either way around it, Jesus was to be sacrificed.

If he had been accepted as the messiah, he was STILL here as the sacrifice.

John knew this, ( and this gives me shivers because its so deep and shows his understanding) when he said,

Jhn 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.


Am I wrong in thinking that had the Jews understood and accepted him, they would have lovingly sacrificed him on the altar instead of him being killed as a criminal on the cross?
 

Hedgehog

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Was hanging on a tree a part of the original intentions? Or just what God knew would happen.

Because wouldnt you think that which ever way a lamb was to be slain and sacrificed in the OT would have been the way God was foreshadowing that Jesus should have been slain? KWIM? a kosher type sacrifice?
 
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Maybe Im just dense, because I had never thought this before, but I had a thought the other day that I had never considered before.

Either way around it, Jesus was to be sacrificed.

If he had been accepted as the messiah, he was STILL here as the sacrifice.

John knew this, ( and this gives me shivers because its so deep and shows his understanding) when he said,

Jhn 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.


Am I wrong in thinking that had the Jews understood and accepted him, they would have lovingly sacrificed him on the altar instead of him being killed as a criminal on the cross?
That may have been the way that they should have looked at it. Yet God opposed human sacrifice like the Molech worshippers indulged in. If they had followed thru with God's plans He would have provided the Ram, so they would be sinless.

Yet, in the example of Abraham and Isaac the ram was also the substitute.

 
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Hedgehog

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Interesting! Thank you for your thoughts! So... had Jesus come, they accepted him, they began to sacrifice him... God would have stopped them and seen that they WOULD have given him up and then provided a ram?

What would happen then?
 
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Interesting! Thank you for your thoughts! So... had Jesus come, they accepted him, they began to sacrifice him... God would have stopped them and seen that they WOULD have given him up and then provided a ram?

What would happen then?
moot
they didn't.
But I think it does show how God doesn't change His character but how He could
and does change the means that He fulfills His purpose.
 
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tall73

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Maybe Im just dense, because I had never thought this before, but I had a thought the other day that I had never considered before.

Either way around it, Jesus was to be sacrificed.

If he had been accepted as the messiah, he was STILL here as the sacrifice.

John knew this, ( and this gives me shivers because its so deep and shows his understanding) when he said,

Jhn 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.


Am I wrong in thinking that had the Jews understood and accepted him, they would have lovingly sacrificed him on the altar instead of him being killed as a criminal on the cross?

I have thought on this question as well.

In one sense Jesus was still killed in the courtyard as the heavenly sanctuary which He entered into after His death is described as the true tabernacle.

On the other hand the altar was the place of sacrifice for the sin offerings.

Jesus anticipates the cross event, and indicates that the OT does as well with the serpent in the wilderness.


Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.



Mat 26:2 Ye know that after two days is the feast of the passover, and the Son of man is betrayed to be crucified.


Psalm 22 seems to anticipate something like the crucifixion as well.

Psa 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
Psa 22:17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
Psa 22:18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
Psa 22:19 But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me.

Mat 27:35 And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.


Hebrews notes that the bodies of the sacrificial animals were burned outside the camp, where also Jesus went for us.

Heb 13:10 We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle.
Heb 13:11 For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp.
Heb 13:12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.
Heb 13:13 Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.

 
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tall73

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Interesting! Thank you for your thoughts! So... had Jesus come, they accepted him, they began to sacrifice him... God would have stopped them and seen that they WOULD have given him up and then provided a ram?

What would happen then?

Hebrews indicates that the blood of bulls and goats is insufficient.

Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.


Offerings were required, but were never enough. But the sacrifice of Jesus provided sanctification once for all.

Heb 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Heb 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

Heb 10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.



Jesus IS the Ram that was provided for us, so that we and our children need not die.


What God asked Abraham to do, God did. He gave His only Son.



Gen 22:2 He said, "Take your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I shall tell you."


Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
 
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Because I have also wondered and never understood how God would NEED to have Jesus sacrificed when human sacrifice itself is a bad thing.
Yet, the whole point is that w/o a payment there isn't a way back (or payback :) and no reference point from which God could judge Lucifer or those who chose the prideful way. Including the judgement placed on the discisions of angels.
People playing god by sacrificing humans being as not being right, places approval of God's action that He was the only one that was supposed to be sacrificed to redeem humans.

Personally I felt sorry for the animals that God sanctified to die.
 
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tall73

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Because I have also wondered and never understood how God would NEED to have Jesus sacrificed when human sacrifice itself is a bad thing.

That is a bit tougher one to answer.

First we need to ask why human sacrifice was a bad thing.

Usually the context of human sacrifice was offering one's children to other gods, such as Molech.

The idea was to essentially "bribe" the god with something dear to you to appease them, in exchange for blessings, good crops, out of fear, etc.

The gods were those who must be appeased and man were there to serve them.

In the fulfillment God set's this on its head. We have nothing to offer God, nothing to bribe Him with, we have no righteousness of our own and nothing to bring.

He Himself offers the gift of His Son for us, the opposite of the demanding gods.

Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
Rom 3:25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.

He does so out of love, the opposite of the gods:

Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.



So apart from the fact that sacrificing people is horrible in itself, it also would give the exact opposite of the lesson God wanted to convey.

The sacrifices were substitutes for the sinner. The sinner would confess his sin and another would pay the price. If they gave their children they might view it as bribing God's favor. Instead it was grace in that this other life was allowed to atone for their sin.

Now some don't hold the the "substitution" model of atonement. But it certainly seems that the blood of Jesus, His sacrifice for us, is what cleanses us. Jesus died for our sins. He bore our sins in His body. He became sin for us so that we might become the righteousness of God.


2Co 5:21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.


Isa 53:4 Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted.
Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his stripes we are healed.
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned--every one--to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

We are healed by His wounds.

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit

Just as the innocent lamb died in the place of the sinner in the type so Jesus died once for sins, the Righteous for the unrighteous. This was the means of reconciling us to God.
 
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Hedgehog

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Personally I felt sorry for the animals that God sanctified to die.

I was just talking to someone the other day about this. You never see anywhere in scripture where it talks about how the people felt about it. and I wonder how if my family was gathered out back my house and it was time to kill an animal for our sins.. how would we feel watching that animal struggle and be killed and die for us?
 
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I was just talking to someone the other day about this. You never see anywhere in scripture where it talks about how the people felt about it. and I wonder how if my family was gathered out back my house and it was time to kill an animal for our sins.. how would we feel watching that animal struggle and be killed and die for us?
Ya, the passover lamb was treated as a household member to realise the significance of it. It's hard to understand why they didn't see that, but according to scripture they tried Him, and deemed Him defective to be that Lamb.
 
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I was just talking to someone the other day about this. You never see anywhere in scripture where it talks about how the people felt about it. and I wonder how if my family was gathered out back my house and it was time to kill an animal for our sins.. how would we feel watching that animal struggle and be killed and die for us?

I think of Adam and Eve in the garden when God made garments of skin.

Gen 3:21 And the LORD God made for Adam and for his wife garments of skins and clothed them.


Garments of skin don't just come from a clothes rack.

God had told them that eating the fruit would bring about death. And now they saw death first hand as God offered the first sacrifice to cover their nakedness due to sin.

Whether it was a goat or lamb or whatever we don't know. But Adam had likely named that very animal and to see it die and know that the same thing would eventually happen to him and those he loved because of his sin would be a hard lesson.

The sacrifices were reminders of sin:

Heb 10:3 But in these sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year.



God provided the animal then to cover them, and He provided the true Lamb of God for us.
 
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tall73

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I was just talking to someone the other day about this. You never see anywhere in scripture where it talks about how the people felt about it. and I wonder how if my family was gathered out back my house and it was time to kill an animal for our sins.. how would we feel watching that animal struggle and be killed and die for us?

Peter alludes to the rite when appealing to the people regarding the precious nature of the the blood of Christ.

1Pe 1:18 knowing that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your forefathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold,
1Pe 1:19 but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot.
 
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Hebrews indicates that the blood of bulls and goats is insufficient.

Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

Offerings were required, but were never enough. But the sacrifice of Jesus provided sanctification once for all.

Heb 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Heb 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
Heb 10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.



Jesus IS the Ram that was provided for us, so that we and our children need not die.


What God asked Abraham to do, God did. He gave His only Son.



Gen 22:2 He said, "Take your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I shall tell you."

Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Wasn't it the scapegoat that was outside the camp?

Leviticus 16

The Day of Atonement

1 The LORD spoke to Moses after the death of the two sons of Aaron who died when they approached the LORD. ........
20 "When Aaron has finished making atonement for the Most Holy Place, the Tent of Meeting and the altar, he shall bring forward the live goat. 21 He is to lay both hands on the head of the live goat and confess over it all the wickedness and rebellion of the Israelites—all their sins—and put them on the goat's head. He shall send the goat away into the desert in the care of a man appointed for the task. 22 The goat will carry on itself all their sins to a solitary place; and the man shall release it in the desert. .....
 
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tall73

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Wasn't it the scapegoat that was outside the camp?

Leviticus 16

The Day of Atonement

1 The LORD spoke to Moses after the death of the two sons of Aaron who died when they approached the LORD. ........
20 "When Aaron has finished making atonement for the Most Holy Place, the Tent of Meeting and the altar, he shall bring forward the live goat. 21 He is to lay both hands on the head of the live goat and confess over it all the wickedness and rebellion of the Israelites—all their sins—and put them on the goat's head. He shall send the goat away into the desert in the care of a man appointed for the task. 22 The goat will carry on itself all their sins to a solitary place; and the man shall release it in the desert. .....

The scapegoat was taken outside the camp, but it was not killed.

The author of Hebrews is here referring to the sin offerings, both in the regular ritual and perhaps particularly on the Day of Atonement as he references the high priest.

The sin offering for the whole congregation or for the anointed priest was killed and then blood was taken into the first compartment of the sanctuary, other elements were offered, etc. But then the rest of the animal was taken outside the camp and burned:

Lev 4:11 But the skin of the bull and all its flesh, with its head, its legs, its entrails, and its dung--
Lev 4:12 all the rest of the bull--he shall carry outside the camp to a clean place, to the ash heap, and shall burn it up on a fire of wood. On the ash heap it shall be burned up.


On the Day of Atonement we see this as well:


Lev 16:27 And the bull for the sin offering and the goat for the sin offering, whose blood was brought in to make atonement in the Holy Place, shall be carried outside the camp. Their skin and their flesh and their dung shall be burned up with fire.

Heb 13:11 For the bodies of those animals whose blood is brought into the holy places by the high priest as a sacrifice for sin are burned outside the camp.
 
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Heb 13:

10We have an altar from which those who minister at the tabernacle have no right to eat. 11The high priest carries the blood of animals into the Most Holy Place as a sin offering, but the bodies are burned outside the camp. 12And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood. 13Let us, then, go to him outside the camp, bearing the disgrace he bore.
 
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