How should Christian handle matters outside of public humiliation, even among Baptists?

[Lik3]

When I say public humiliation and fights posted among church member on YouTube or some other video site like "World Star", how should a member specifically a pastor, trustee, or deacon accused be handled? How is it that some people seem to revel in what goes on in churches? So for that alone, I will not post any videos as I have been guilty of that and have reveled in watching them in the past.

Here are some real-life scenarios:
1. A pastor has been accused of misappropriating funds. Well there were a group of people who exposed him within the confines of the church during service. All that went down was posted on YouTube.

2. This was based on a news story but posted nevertheless. Without hypocrisy there was a woman who was a member of the trustee board getting into a physical confrontation with the pastor. She slaps him first only for the pastor to try to hit at her. (In this situation or any situation, if a woman were to hit first, how should a man respond?)

3. There was fighting in the middle of a Baptist church service. The pastor has been accused of poor leadership and financial misdeeds. According to one member, the pastor is a rather arrogant man who brings up the building of the church was his family church. Anyway, it was a news story that was posted on YouTube.

4. Two older men were fighting in the church over melodies of all things. By the way, one of them carried a gun and it looked to be that the man was about to use it. Anyways, the two older men, who looked to be in their 60s and 70s were fighting within the confines of the church. The video posted on YouTube was not very long though.

My questions are:
1. How should Christians handle any kind of disputes?
2. What should happen to anyone who misappropriates church funds?
3. What should be done before tempers flare? How should believers handle issues that could in fact cause in-fighting among church members?
4. Why do so many people in the church seem to abuse their power by misappropriating funds? Could it also be the fault of some of the church members for allowing that to happen in some of these situations, not just the scenarios listed above?
5. Do these often make you wonder why non-believers, including atheists, believe that professing Christians are nothing but a bunch of hypocrites?
6. How come it seems that while many believers are persecuted elsewhere, there are members here in the US, and some other countries who seem to have no clue about persecuted? Would it be because of church violence?

I know it is long, but I wonder if Baptists have a different take on what I had written compared to say, Catholics or Methodists.

 

[twin1954]

When I say public humiliation and fights posted among church member on YouTube or some other video site like "World Star", how should a member specifically a pastor, trustee, or deacon accused be handled? How is it that some people seem to revel in what goes on in churches? So for that alone, I will not post any videos as I have been guilty of that and have reveled in watching them in the past.

Here are some real-life scenarios:
1. A pastor has been accused of misappropriating funds. Well there were a group of people who exposed him within the confines of the church during service. All that went down was posted on YouTube.

2. This was based on a news story but posted nevertheless. Without hypocrisy there was a woman who was a member of the trustee board getting into a physical confrontation with the pastor. She slaps him first only for the pastor to try to hit at her. (In this situation or any situation, if a woman were to hit first, how should a man respond?)

3. There was fighting in the middle of a Baptist church service. The pastor has been accused of poor leadership and financial misdeeds. According to one member, the pastor is a rather arrogant man who brings up the building of the church was his family church. Anyway, it was a news story that was posted on YouTube.

4. Two older men were fighting in the church over melodies of all things. By the way, one of them carried a gun and it looked to be that the man was about to use it. Anyways, the two older men, who looked to be in their 60s and 70s were fighting within the confines of the church. The video posted on YouTube was not very long though.

My questions are:
1. How should Christians handle any kind of disputes?
2. What should happen to anyone who misappropriates church funds?
3. What should be done before tempers flare? How should believers handle issues that could in fact cause in-fighting among church members?
4. Why do so many people in the church seem to abuse their power by misappropriating funds? Could it also be the fault of some of the church members for allowing that to happen in some of these situations, not just the scenarios listed above?
5. Do these often make you wonder why non-believers, including atheists, believe that professing Christians are nothing but a bunch of hypocrites?
6. How come it seems that while many believers are persecuted elsewhere, there are members here in the US, and some other countries who seem to have no clue about persecuted? Would it be because of church violence?

I know it is long, but I wonder if Baptists have a different take on what I had written compared to say, Catholics or Methodists.

The first mistake that you are making is assuming that those "churches", pastors and others are actually God called assemblies and God called men. The fact is that most of what goes by the name of Christianity has never been called or gathered by God. Most of the men who call themselves pastors were called by men not by God. They are not sheepfolds under the Great Shepherd but goat barns full of unbelievers. The pastors are not undershepherds but goat herders and hirelings. That is why you have such behavior in them. I can tell you that such things do not happen in a true church with a God called pastor. I have known many over the years and have never seen it happen in a single one of churches where the people are truly called by the Gospel and the pastor a God called man.

This is also a problem with a democratic system of church government. When everyone gets a vote on how things should be done in the church you have unbelievers who are actually running things. The church was never set up to be a democracy it is a theocracy under the Lord Jesus Christ as its Head and King. God called pastors are one of the ascension gifts of Christ to His churches. Believers are to follow them as they follow Christ.

 

[Lik3]

Those are all valid points. Thanks. Anyways, I believe that many who profess Christ isn't necessarily a true believer. I believe that a church that is Christian is God's house. At least that is my point of view but your views on a pastor are quite interesting.

 

[Goodbook]

Matthew 18 comes to mind. Esp verse 15-18

 

[twin1954]

Those are all valid points. Thanks. Anyways, I believe that many who profess Christ isn't necessarily a true believer. I believe that a church that is Christian is God's house. At least that is my point of view but your views on a pastor are quite interesting.

As always the question is are my views Scriptural?

 

[AGTG]

God called pastors are one of the ascension gifts of Christ to His churches. Believers are to follow them as they follow Christ.

Wrong. No one should come between a Christian and Father God, but the man Christ Jesus. Anyone else is an idol.

Godly submission and authority means everyone is at the same level because God is no respecter of persons.

The term "pastor" is found only once in the New Testament. The term "teacher" is found in numerous forms well over 100 times.

Why? Because congregations are only bound by one thing: Truth. And that truth can only come forth through study of the word and sound doctrine empowered by the Holy Spirit.

Any leader who attempts to inject themselves between congregants and Father God is in for a rude awakening as that position is only meant for the One who is worthy: Christ Jesus.

Any congregant that allows a leader to weasel their way between themselves and Jesus is caught in idolatry.

Leaders teach the truth, and people can believe it and follow, but that truth will always point people to Father and the only way to get to Father: Jesus.

 

[twin1954]

Wrong. No one should come between a Christian and Father God, but the man Christ Jesus. Anyone else is an idol.

Godly submission and authority means everyone is at the same level because God is no respecter of persons.

The term "pastor" is found only once in the New Testament. The term "teacher" is found in numerous forms well over 100 times.

Why? Because congregations are only bound by one thing: Truth. And that truth can only come forth through study of the word and sound doctrine empowered by the Holy Spirit.

Any leader who attempts to inject themselves between congregants and Father God is in for a rude awakening as that position is only meant for the One who is worthy: Christ Jesus.

Any congregant that allows a leader to weasel their way between themselves and Jesus is caught in idolatry.

Leaders teach the truth, and people can believe it and follow, but that truth will always point people to Father and the only way to get to Father: Jesus.

As a Baptist I hold firmly to the priesthood of the believer. I wasn't remotely suggesting that pastors are between Christ and His people. Both of my statements are quotes from the Scriptures actually.

The ascension gifts are from Eph. 4:8-12 and Paul told the Corinthians in 1Cor. 11:1 to be followers of him as he is a follower of Christ. We are told to esteem them highly who have the rule over us. 1Tim. 5:17; Heb. 13:7,17,24.

 

[JCFantasy23]

Disputes like that? I hate to see them on Youtube. They'll just be used for ammunition to make non-believers talk about hypocrisy in church and bring forth more doubts. People lose their tempers, even in church setting, but it can be twisted into appearing worse than it actually is. I think it should be handled privately within the church as the first step, never social media.

 

[AGTG]

As a Baptist I hold firmly to the priesthood of the believer. I wasn't remotely suggesting that pastors are between Christ and His people. Both of my statements are quotes from the Scriptures actually.

The ascension gifts are from Eph. 4:8-12 and Paul told the Corinthians in 1Cor. 11:1 to be followers of him as he is a follower of Christ. We are told to esteem them highly who have the rule over us. 1Tim. 5:17; Heb. 13:7,17,24.

You spoke in error, allow me to point it out because even a single word can twist the whole idea into a warped, unBiblical doctrine.

You said, "Believers are to follow them as they follow Christ."

But that is not so. What those scriptures really mean is that we are to follow Christ "like" they follow Christ. There's a very big difference between those two ideas (emphasis mine):

Hebrews 13:7
7 Remember your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God. Consider the outcome of their way of life, and imitate their faith.

1 Cor. 11:1
1 Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ.

Now if we really want to understand what Godly submission looks like, any idea that comes forth must align with Christ's plain teaching that leaders are not to "lord" over others.

Also, we need to understand the difference between preaching and teaching, as the modern church is quite off in that.

Preaching = Sowing Seed = Bringing the lost to Christ
Teaching = Watering the Seed = Training/Equipping those who have come to saving faith.

Knowing that the leaders of the church are basically role-models for others, and knowing that their primary job was to teach the people the truth and point everyone to Jesus, we would have a more Biblical and godly perspective when we come upon passages that say we should submit to them like this passage:

Hebrews 13:17
17 Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.

Have you ever tried to teach a classroom full of people? Imagine trying to teach Biblical truth to people steeped in Judaic culture and tradition? Do you think they might have their own unBiblical ideas to argue with? How about teaching a group of former pagans who've recently found Christ?

If you have, you'd realize order is necessary. If people are arguing, divisive, or just plain causing trouble, it's going to hinder the people from learning. How about the guy in the back corner of the group who thinks he can run his own little class while the leader is trying to teach? Teaching groups of people requires management, and that's all that passage is referring to.

You cannot uphold the priesthood of every believer, and suggest that anyone besides Christ is to "rule" over us.

Also, 1 Tim. 5:17 is in reference to giving compensation and aid to someone who has dedicated themselves to the expansion of the Kingdom of God, and not a secular job. Again, the term "preaching" is almost exclusively used by Paul throughout the New Testament in reference to bringing people who are outside the church into relationship with Father God by sharing the gospel with them.

Preaching and teaching are two distinctly different things, and the modern church has allowed "dynamic speaking" replace solid teaching. That's a big mistake, and part of the reason why the modern church is in the mess that it's in.

 

[twin1954]

You spoke in error, allow me to point it out because even a single word can twist the whole idea into a warped, unBiblical doctrine.

I did not speak in error you understood in error. I suspect that you have been hurt by a man who was not truly called of God. You cannot judge all men by one who has hurt you. I actually know what it is to set a man up on a pedestal and have him fall off. It never hurts the man but it can almost destroy you. Don't allow your anger to shape your understanding of the Scriptures. Don't allow a sinful man to poison what you know to be truth.

You said, "Believers are to follow them as they follow Christ."

But that is not so. What those scriptures really mean is that we are to follow Christ "like" they follow Christ. There's a very big difference between those two ideas (emphasis mine):

And I meant exactly what I said. We are to follow men who are called and gifted of God as he, they in the plural, follow Christ. We are to Judge everything a man who claims to be called of God by the Scriptures but when he follows Christ we are to follow him. It certainly isn't a blind robotic mimicking of the man but a conscience that understands the truth of the Gospel and grasps the fact that Christ gave us pastors/teachers to lead us. To refuse to bow to the God given authority of God's men is to refuse to bow to Christ.

Oh yeah, I am always wary when someone says "what those Scripture actually mean." I am very aware of what those Scriptures mean.

Hebrews 13:7

7 Remember your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God. Consider the outcome of their way of life, and imitate their faith.

1 Cor. 11:1
1 Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ.

Now if we really want to understand what Godly submission looks like, any idea that comes forth must align with Christ's plain teaching that leaders are not to "lord" over others.

Agreed! God's men are not lords but servants. We serve Christ and His people with all of ourselves. We give of ourselves to the good of His church and His people. We are not haughty but humble and the least of all saints. We are not CEO's who run an organization but servants who see to the needs of the Lord's people. We do not seek our own gain but the good of Christ's people.

Men who are called of men seek their own gain but men who are called of Christ seek the gain and good of His people.

Also, we need to understand the difference between preaching and teaching, as the modern church is quite off in that.

Preaching = Sowing Seed = Bringing the lost to Christ
Teaching = Watering the Seed = Training/Equipping those who have come to saving faith.

Show me where there is a difference in the Scriptures. The fact is, through years of experience, that when you preach Christ and His Gospel you not only call the unbeliever to faith in Christ but you teach the believer to rest in Him alone. We preach Christ crucifies in all of His wonder, purpose and glory. When we do that we preach Him as He is revealed in the Scriptures and all of His wonders. That Gospel truth reaches both the believe and the elect unbeliever.

Knowing that the leaders of the church are basically role-models for others, and knowing that their primary job was to teach the people the truth and point everyone to Jesus, we would have a more Biblical and godly perspective when we come upon passages that say we should submit to them like this passage:

Hebrews 13:17
17 Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.

No man truly called of God would expect otherwise. But when it comes to spiritual truth you will submit. Otherwise you are a rebel and close to apostacy. Sheep are not meant to be loners or to formulate their own ideas of what they should be. They require a pastor, which is simply another word for shepherd.

Have you ever tried to teach a classroom full of people? Imagine trying to teach Biblical truth to people steeped in Judaic culture and tradition? Do you think they might have their own unBiblical ideas to argue with? How about teaching a group of former pagans who've recently found Christ?

I have done all of these things over the years.

If you have, you'd realize order is necessary. If people are arguing, divisive, or just plain causing trouble, it's going to hinder the people from learning. How about the guy in the back corner of the group who thinks he can run his own little class while the leader is trying to teach? Teaching groups of people requires management, and that's all that passage is referring to.

Actually teaching is the same as preaching. There is no room for questions and discussion when a man of god is called to teach His people. Sunday School is a farce in most churches. We tell the truth to those who are gathered in the same way we tell the truth in the pulpit. A man called and gifted of God does not allow everybody to give their opinion but tells the people what the Scriptures teach and leaves it to the Spirit to bring it to their hearts.

You cannot uphold the priesthood of every believer, and suggest that anyone besides Christ is to "rule" over us.

I didn't suggest it the Scriptures do. You will either bow to the Scriptures or you will not. I am not trying to convince you of anything but just telling you what I know according to the light given me over the past 25 or so years that I have been studying and preaching the truth of God all over this wonderful country.

Also, 1 Tim. 5:17 is in reference to giving compensation and aid to someone who has dedicated themselves to the expansion of the Kingdom of God, and not a secular job. Again, the term "preaching" is almost exclusively used by Paul throughout the New Testament in reference to bringing people who are outside the church into relationship with Father God by sharing the gospel with them.

The first mistake you make is to infer a distinction between the preaching of the Gospel and teaching. In truth they are both the same. Again I know this by experience. When You preach
Christ in all of His wondrous glory you teach folks about Him and point them to Him alone because of all His wonder and accomplishments. You seek to point folks to Him alone and to rest in Him because He is all in all.

Preaching and teaching are two distinctly different things, and the modern church has allowed "dynamic speaking" replace solid teaching. That's a big mistake, and part of the reason why the modern church is in the mess that it's in.

Obviously you have never been under the preaching of a God called man. Preaching and teaching are not two distinct things they are one and the same. A person who sits in the pew under the preaching of a truly God called man will be a better theologian than those who have spent years in a seminary.

The "modern church' hasn't even a resemblance to the church established by the Lord. It is in a mess because most of the men who call themselves pastors were either called by other men or by themselves. They are nothing but hirelings who desire to be CEO's of a corporation instead of servants of God's people.

 

[Lik3]

As always the question is are my views Scriptural?

I think they are biblical.