How Rom 11 used the OT

[Interplanner]

11:3. Others before Paul have been frustrated with the lack of response in Israel.

11:4. God has reserve believers that we don't know about; that Israel didn't know about. Their existence is not due to works, which doesn't get anywhere (v5).

11:8. So the elect believe, and recognize their unbelief, but the others just harden because they can't get credit. This thought will show again in 25 as the permanent condition of Israel, which he had already expressed back in 9:7.

11:9. All we know of David in Romans is that he knows what forgiveness for sins is, and here, that nothing can be done about the hardened. Almost (v12). If they don't persist in unbelief, they can thrive.

11:26. So the humble remnant will be saved; Israel's hardness is not a surprise that has God stumped. The Isaiah quote is historic and fulfilled, the new covenant that took away sins. All this business is wrapped up as the "nows" and past tenses of v32 show.

11:35. God is not obligated by human "payment"--this is a theme that goes as far back as Job.

 

[riverrat]

Preterist garbage!

 

[Biblewriter]

11:3. Others before Paul have been frustrated with the lack of response in Israel.

11:4. God has reserve believers that we don't know about; that Israel didn't know about. Their existence is not due to works, which doesn't get anywhere (v5).

11:8. So the elect believe, and recognize their unbelief, but the others just harden because they can't get credit. This thought will show again in 25 as the permanent condition of Israel, which he had already expressed back in 9:7.

11:9. All we know of David in Romans is that he knows what forgiveness for sins is, and here, that nothing can be done about the hardened. Almost (v12). If they don't persist in unbelief, they can thrive.

11:26. So the humble remnant will be saved; Israel's hardness is not a surprise that has God stumped. The Isaiah quote is historic and fulfilled, the new covenant that took away sins. All this business is wrapped up as the "nows" and past tenses of v32 show.

11:35. God is not obligated by human "payment"--this is a theme that goes as far back as Job.

Again we notice that this wresting of scripture required the writer to omit everything from verse 10 to verse 25.

But what did the Holy Spirit say in this section?

“I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness! For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?” (Romans 11:11-15)

How much more clearly could the Holy Spirit have stated this? They were not caused to stumble “that they should fall,” but to provoke them to jealousy. We have already noticed that this act of provoking to jealousy is an act designed to restore a relationship, not an act of final rejection. So the Apostle Paul was earnest in his ministry in hopes of provoking jealousy in “those who are my flesh,” in hopes of saving “some of them.” But these statements are interspersed with two others of even greater significance. These are, “Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!” and “For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?” These last two statements highlight two things. First, they both refer to Israel’s future acceptance, and second, they answer the unbelieving complaint that preferring Israel in a future day would be unjust. God here is stressing that when Israel is finally once again accepted, it will be such blessing for the Gentiles as to seem as if they had risen from the dead.

The Holy Spirit now begins a solemn warning to those that He knew would in a future day deny this wonderful truth. “For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, ‘Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.’ Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.” (Romans 11:16-22)

This is not just an idle threat. When we study the history of the church, we find that at about the same time as the essentially universal acceptance of the doctrine that Israel was permanently set aside, the “church” also lost the essential doctrine of salvation by grace through faith. This was the beginning of what we call the dark ages, a period of well over thousand years in which “the church” taught salvation by works, not by faith. Indeed, they were cut off the tree of blessing, even as these ancient Jews had been. For it is “not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us.” (Titus 3:5)

But after this warning, the Holy Spirit continues with his subject, saying, “And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?” (Romans 11:23-25) Here God stresses his ability to graft these, the natural branches, back into their own olive tree. Many have stressed the application of this principle to individual Jews in the present day. And that application is both true and appropriate, for today God will graft any believing Jew back into that olive tree of blessing. But that is not the only correct application of this promise.

The promise has a condition attached to it. That condition is “if they do not continue in unbelief.” God has explicitly promised that if Israel does “not continue in unbelief,” He will graft them back into their own olive tree. This promise is indeed conditional, and thus will not be kept unless Israel indeed does “not continue in unbelief.” But if that is the case, how can God have so explicitly promised their eventual restoration in so many places? It is because He, who declares “the end from the beginning” (Isaiah 46:10) Has already told us, in no uncertain language, that in a future day they will indeed “not continue in unbelief.” We have already noticed two scriptures about this, that in a coming day “he who is left in Zion and remains in Jerusalem will be called holy—everyone who is recorded among the living in Jerusalem.” (Isaiah 4:3) and “No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them.” (Jeremiah 31:34) But now we need to notice several others.

The repentance that will bring about this state is explicitly described in Zechariah 12:10-14, saying,
“I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. In that day there shall be a great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning at Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. And the land shall mourn, every family by itself: the family of the house of David by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Levi by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of Shimei by itself, and their wives by themselves; all the families that remain, every family by itself, and their wives by themselves.”

We have already noticed Isaiah 1:9, where we read, “Unless the Lord of hosts Had left to us a very small remnant, We would have become like Sodom, We would have been made like Gomorrah.” Those who repent in the way we have just seen will indeed be only a very small remnant, for this will only take place after “‘it shall come to pass in all the land,’ Says the Lord, ‘That two-thirds in it shall be cut off and die, But one-third shall be left in it: I will bring the one-third through the fire, Will refine them as silver is refined, And test them as gold is tested.’” (Zechariah 13:8-9a) Some have quite incorrectly pretended that this speaks of the time of the time of Titus, when he was used by God to destroy guilty Judea. But there is no way to even pretend that at that time two-thirds of all those in the land died, and all the rest became believers as described in the rest of this passage in the words, “They will call on My name, And I will answer them. I will say, ‘This is My people’; And each one will say, ‘The Lord is my God.’” (Zechariah 13:9b)

The prophesied repentance will also be after the time of which we read that “‘As I live,’ says the Lord GOD, ‘surely with a mighty hand, with an outstretched arm, and with fury poured out, I will rule over you. I will bring you out from the peoples and gather you out of the countries where you are scattered, with a mighty hand, with an outstretched arm, and with fury poured out. And I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there I will plead My case with you face to face. Just as I pleaded My case with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so I will plead My case with you,’ says the Lord GOD. 'I will make you pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant; I will purge the rebels from among you, and those who transgress against Me; I will bring them out of the country where they dwell, but they shall not enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the Lord.’” (Ezekiel 20:33-38)

So the God who cannot lie has told us that He will bring Israel through a time of intense trouble that will kill a full two-thirds of them, and even after that He will personally purge out all the rebels from their midst. Then, after that time, they will truly repent and turn to him with their whole hearts. Anyone who denies that this will indeed happen is denying explicitly stated scripture.

 

[Biblewriter]

Again, the OP wrests verse 26, but omits the context. for we read:

“For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: ‘The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins.’” (Romans 11:25-27)

The quotation here is from Isaiah 59:20-21, where we read, “‘The Redeemer will come to Zion, And to those who turn from transgression in Jacob,’ Says the Lord. ‘As for Me,’ says the Lord, ‘this is My covenant with them: My Spirit who is upon you, and My words which I have put in your mouth, shall not depart from your mouth, nor from the mouth of your descendants, nor from the mouth of your descendants’ descendants,” says the Lord, “from this time and forevermore.’” So once again, we see that the Old Testament passage quoted by the Holy Spirit was another one about the future restoration of Israel. How do we know it is not speaking of the present age? Someone who trusts in the Lord Jesus today receives salvation. But that salvation is not promised to their “descendants” and to their “descendant’s descendants... from this time and forevermore.” This is common language for promises to Israel, but no similar promise was ever made to the church, even a single time.

But returning now to Romans 11, we need to notice that the Holy Spirit defined a distinct limit to the time of Israel’s partial blindness. It was to last “until the fullness of the gentiles has come in.” Some want to pretend that this refers to the time of Jerusalem’s destruction in AD 70. But we see differently in the place where Jesus clearly predicted that destruction. For Jesus said, “when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.” (Luke 21:20-24)

Here we see clearly described the coming of the Roman armies and the instruction to flee when this happens. Jesus explicitly said it would be “the days of vengeance, that all things that are written may be fulfilled.” It is obvious that this could not mean that this was when absolutely everything written would be fulfilled, for there are many prophecies about other things. So it clearly means that at that time, all things written about the vengeance on Jerusalem would be fulfilled. That indeed came to pass at the hands of the Romans, including, exactly as Jesus said, “great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations.” We know from history, and even from logic if we did not know the history, that they were not “led away captive into all nations” until after Jerusalem was destroyed. But it is only after this that we read, “And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.” So we see, just from the stated order of the events Jesus referred to, that the time of trampling began when Jerusalem was destroyed. It did not end at that time. It began at that time. And it is still going on. Even to this very day, Jerusalem is still being “trampled by Gentiles.” This clearly demonstrates that “the times of the Gentiles” are not yet “fulfilled,” even to the present day.

Thus we see that “the fullness of the gentiles” has even yet not “come in,” and thus Israel’s time of “blindness in part” is not yet ended. But it will end when “the fullness of the gentiles has come in.” This, then, is the context of the Holy Spirit’s statement, “And so all Israel will be saved.”

This is again demonstrated by what He said next, “Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.” (Romans 11:28-29) We first need to notice that the subject is most definitely not the church for the ones under discussion are called “they,” not “we,” and “Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake.” This very clearly shows that these are not Christians, not the church. But then what does the Holy Spirit say about them? “But concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.” So we see that these ones, who are most definitely not the church, “are beloved for the sake of the fathers.” Thus we are directed back to Abraham, Isaac, And Jacob, the fathers of Israel, to whom the promises were made.

Further, this is “concerning the election.” Many assume that whenever we find the term “the elect” in scripture, it is always speaking of the church. But here the concept is applied to these ones who are “enemies,” “concerning the gospel.” We find that Israel is called “my elect” three times in the book of Isaiah. The first of these is, “For Jacob My servant’s sake, And Israel My elect, I have even called you by your name; I have named you, though you have not known Me.” (Isaiah 45:4) The second one is, “I will bring forth descendants from Jacob, And from Judah an heir of My mountains; My elect shall inherit it, And My servants shall dwell there.” (Isaiah 65:9) And the third one is, “I will rejoice in Jerusalem, And joy in My people; The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her, Nor the voice of crying. No more shall an infant from there live but a few days, Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days; For the child shall die one hundred years old, But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed. They shall build houses and inhabit them; They shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit. They shall not build and another inhabit; They shall not plant and another eat; For as the days of a tree, so shall be the days of My people, And My elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.” (Isaiah 65:19-22)

Finally, the Holy Spirit gives his basic, essential reason for all this. “For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.” (Romans 11:29) This is the reason the fleshly descendants of the ancient nation of Israel must be restored to their land and blessed there. That reason is the faithfulness of God. It has nothing to do with the faithfulness of Israel, or with the lack thereof. It is based entirely on who God is, and what He is. He made promises to his ancient people, and He will keep those promises. Some imagine that his promises were not absolute, but only conditional. They say that since Israel did not fulfill the conditions, they lost the promises. But as we have already noticed, God has also clearly stated otherwise, saying, “My mercy I will keep for him forever, And My covenant shall stand firm with him. His seed also I will make to endure forever, And his throne as the days of heaven. If his sons forsake My law And do not walk in My judgments, If they break My statutes And do not keep My commandments, Then I will punish their transgression with the rod, And their iniquity with stripes. Nevertheless My lovingkindness I will not utterly take from him, Nor allow My faithfulness to fail. My covenant I will not break, Nor alter the word that has gone out of My lips. Once I have sworn by My holiness; I will not lie to David: His seed shall endure forever, And his throne as the sun before Me; It shall be established forever like the moon, Even like the faithful witness in the sky.” (Psalm 89:28-37) We already noticed that in this place God explicitly said that not even sin could cancel his covenant. He said that if they sinned, he would deal with that sin. But “nevertheless My lovingkindness I will not utterly take from him, Nor allow My faithfulness to fail. My covenant I will not break, Nor alter the word that has gone out of My lips.”

God closed this passage by saying that David’s throne would be “as the sun before Me; It shall be established forever like the moon, Even like the faithful witness in the sky.” He later expanded on this, saying, “Thus says the Lord: ‘If you can break My covenant with the day and My covenant with the night, so that there will not be day and night in their season, then My covenant may also be broken with David My servant, so that he shall not have a son to reign on his throne, and with the Levites, the priests, My ministers. As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, nor the sand of the sea measured, so will I multiply the descendants of David My servant and the Levites who minister to Me.’” (Jeremiah 33:20-22) Some will protest that the promise to David was fulfilled in Jesus. But we need to notice that this promise includes not only “a son to reign on his throne.” It also includes “the Levites, the priests, My ministers.” Levites and priests are parts of Jewish worship. They have no place in Christian worship.

So again we see, that this section, rather than "spiritualizing" the promises of the Old Testament, is applying them literally.

 

[Interplanner]

BW, it's not that complicated. The Gospel takes away sins. it is refering to debt. If you knew what justification and imputation and crediting was (Rom 4) you would know.

The Isaiah passage has happened. the tenses of the end of the next paragraph are past, and the paragraph has 3 nows in it.

One thing is for sure, if you go past Paul's present time, you turn this thing into a mess of multi-dimensional-prophecies etc that was not meant.

That is why Paul could summarize it all in Rom 15:8 in one line, and 4 wonderful pieces from Psalms and Isaiah.