How long were the descendents of Abraham in Egypt?

[miamited]

Hi all,

On another thread the subject came up about the length of time the Israelites were really in Egypt before the exodus out of Egypt. One poster was kind enough to provide this link to support his position and everyone may want to read it through so that they are aware of most of the basis of this discussion: How Long Were the Israelites in Egypt? - Answers in Genesis

I generally support the position of AIG as to their teaching of the creation account, but I'm a bit perplexed about this particular issue and the position that this article seems to take on this specific subject. I have always trusted that the account given of the timeline of the descendents of Abraham, specifically the family of Israel and his sons and their families going to Egypt and establishing residence in Goshen and then finally leaving Israel, as the Scriptures claim, 430 years later as being accurate. However, that seems to be at question here in this article.

The other thread was about a different subject and the main posters had gone on to discuss bigger and better things so I thought I'd just bring this out as its own discussion.

Anyway, my understanding is:

There are, as far as I know, two references to the time the children of Israel and their descendents would sojourn in Egypt. The first being God's words to Abraham himself: "Know for certain that your descendants will be strangers in a country not their own, and they will be enslavedhttp://www.biblestudytools.com/genesis/15.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-28 and mistreated four hundred years. But I will punish the nation they serve as slaves, and afterward they will come outhttp://www.biblestudytools.com/genesis/15.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-30 with great possessions."

The second being the account of the day that the children of Israel left Egypt and it records the time this way: Now the length of time the Israelite people lived in Egypthttp://www.biblestudytools.com/exodus/12.html#fn-descriptionAnchor-b was 430 years. At the end of the 430 years, to the very day, all the LORD's divisionshttp://www.biblestudytools.com/exodus/12.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-72 left Egypt.

Now, this last one seems to make a fairly specific claim as to the number of years that the Israelites lived in Egypt. While the first one may leave some ambiguity, this one doesn't seem to leave similar wiggle room.

Many claim that there is then a discrepency found in the writings of Paul to the Galatians identified as chapter 3 vs. 16-17, but my study bible says that this reference is reckoning the time from God's repeating the part of His promise to Abraham about his descendents, to Jacob just as he (Jacob) was going down to Egypt. We find in Genesis chapter 46 that just as Jacob was leaving for Egypt, God says to him that he should not be concerned about going down to Egypt for He will bring him back again. So, here in Genesis 46 we find that God is reconfirming His word to Abraham, also to Jacob, that his descendents would go to a land not their own and after being enslaved for 400 years God would rescue them.

So, as I understand this timeline, Jacob and his sons and their families headed to Egypt and at first were welcomed in by the Pharoah at that time and given an area of land to be their own while Joseph remained second in command over all of Egypt. However, at some point a new Pharoah was set over Egypt and he wasn't so kindly to the Israelites and began to deal harshly with them. I rather imagine that this explains the 30 year difference in the two passages of Scripture first mentioned describing the time that the Israelites were in Egypt.

God said to Abraham that his descendents would go to a land not their own and be enslaved for 400 years. However, we know that when the Israelites first entered Egypt that they were not enslaved or oppressed. They seemed to have been welcomed as they were the family of the second highest man in all of Egypt. It is not until after the Pharoah who was ruler over Egypt when they came into Egypt dies, that another Pharoah comes on the scene who begins to be wary of the Israelites and fearful that they are becoming too great in number in the land of Egypt. And because they were set off to an area of their own and did not assimilate well into the general Egyptian population, they began to be looked on as a strange and possibly dangerous group among the Egyptians. This period of changeover has always been considered, by me, to explain the apparent discrepency of the 400 year prophecy given to Abraham and the actual 430 years that we are later told was the length of years that the Israelites actually lived in Egypt.

Anyway, that's my position and I was hoping that others might share their understanding and provide explanations as to why this may not be the correct understanding.

God bless.
In Christ, Ted

 

[Calminian]

Ted, I really didn't quite understand the point you're making in your OP, but I think you're confusing two different issues (or you may not be, like I said I wasn't quite following). Of course there is not discrepancy in scripture, but I think you're referring to two different ostensible discrepancies.

There's the issue of 400 vs. 430 years (easily resolved). And there's the issue of how long Israel was enslaved under pharaoh (also easily resolved).

But I'm still not sure what your position actually is. The answer to these question might help.

How do you define Israel?

How do you believe Moses was defining Israel?

How do define Egypt?

How do you believe Moses was defining Egypt?

From those I'll be able to determine where my disagreements may or may not be with you.

Oh and one other. If you don't mind, how many years do you think passed from Abram's entrance into Canaan based on God's promise to him, to the Exodus?

 

[Calminian]

BTW, I had recommended an article from AiG as sort of a short concise treatment of the issue (and still do).

But bravo to this article by Apologetics Press: How Long Was the Israelites’ Egyptian Bondage?

Having just read this, this has to be the most thorough (yet concise) handling of the subject I've seen thus far. Anyone wanting a good thorough overview and analysis of this subject might want to start here.

 

[ChetSinger]

Thanks, Calminian.

I'd like to point something out for people who might be interested but didn't dig into this: the LXX text of Exodus 12:40 does not match the MT text.

Here's the MT, which is in most of our Bibles:

The time that the people of Israel lived in Egypt was 430 years.

Now, here's the LXX:

And the sojourning of the children of Israel, while they sojourned in the land of Mizraim{gr.Egypt} and the land of Canaan{gr.Chanaan}, [was] four hundred and thirty years.

So the LXX isn't stating that the Israelites lived in Egypt 400 years. That's only claimed in the MT. And while the MT is usually preferred, it's not always the best choice.

Hope this helps.

 

[Calminian]

Thanks, Calminian.

I'd like to point something out for people who might be interested but didn't dig into this: the LXX text of Exodus 12:40 does not match the MT text.

Here's the MT, which is in most of our Bibles:



Now, here's the LXX:



So the LXX isn't stating that the Israelites lived in Egypt 400 years. That's only claimed in the MT. And while the MT is usually preferred, it's not always the best choice.

Hope this helps.

Yes, very good point, as does the samaritan pentateuch. Josephus' sources also confirm this.

They left Egypt in the month of Xanthicus, on the fifteenth day of the lunar month; four hundred and thirty years after our forefather Abraham came into Canaan, but two hundred and fifteen years only after Jacob removed into Egypt. (Antiq. 2:318)​

Does this mean the MT has a scribal error??? Interestingly Josephus in other places refers to Abraham's descendants being in "Egypt" 400 years. Something tells me there are some idiomatic nuances modern readers may be missing.

But what can't be disputed in any way, is the fact that there were 430 years from Abram's promise to the giving of the law (Gal. 3:16-17), and that Israel (understood as including Abraham and Isaac) spent 215 years in Canaan and 215 years in Egypt. (for Abraham's seed, starting with Isaac at age 5, 190 years in Canaan [edit: that is 185 years in Canaan—215-30])

 

[ChetSinger]

Does this mean the MT has a scribal error??? Interestingly Josephus in other places refers to Abraham's descendants being in "Egypt" 400 years. Something tells me there are some idiomatic nuances modern readers may be missing.

Afaik, I think the MT's general superiority over the LXX is deserved. But I know it's not superior in each and every case. Or, as you say, perhaps we've lost some context across time and culture.

 

[miamited]

Hi calminian and chet,

Thanks both of you for the information. It does seem that the geneology record would preclude the Israelites having lived in Egypt for 430 years. I'll have to check out the LXX account of the days of Israel being in Egypt and Canaan.

Thanks for all the help and God bless you.
IN Christ, Ted

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Hi calminian and chet,

Thanks both of you for the information. It does seem that the geneology record would preclude the Israelites having lived in Egypt for 430 years. I'll have to check out the LXX account of the days of Israel being in Egypt and Canaan.

Thanks for all the help and God bless you.
IN Christ, Ted

Well, Paul said from the promise to the law was 430 years.
They came out of Egypt exactly 430 years after the promise, but they did not go in until Jacob was 137 years old.

So "X" years after the promise was given, Isaac was born to Abraham when Abraham was 100 years old, and they are not in Egypt.

Isaac was 60 years old when Jacob was born -and they are not in Egypt.

Jacob did enter Egypt when he was 130 years old.

So 130 +60 =190 years plus "X" years, from the promise to the time they entered Egypt.


The promise was that they would return to Canaan in the 4th generation, which generations were Abraham's, counted beginning with the birth of Isaac -and they did; for Moses was counted the 4th because he was the son of Levi's daughter, Jochebed, and was therefore counted as coming from Levi's loins [which he did, but through Kohath and Amram].

Moses was 82 when God brought them out, and Joseph lived 71 more years after Jacob entered.
Joseph died 71 years after they entered, so from the promise to Joseph's death was 261 years plus "x" years.

261 years plus "X" years, plus Moses' 82 years when they left is 343 years plus X plus Y years from the promise.
They came out 430 years after the promise, so that only leaves a gap of 87 years - the "X" years from the promise, and the years between Joseph's death and the Exodus.


The "X" years were 30, pr the Book of Jasher, given to Abraham when he was 70 years old and 30 years before Isaac -the first generation of Abraham's seed who were given the promise- was born.

That leaves the "Y" years as 57 years to account for, which is exactly the number of years after Joseph's death before Moses was born, as pr the Book of Jasher.

Moses' mother was born when Levi entered the gates of Egypt, and she bore Moses when she was 128 years old, as pr the book of Jasher.
128 plus 82 -Moses age at the Exodus =210 years in Egypt, and not until after Jospeh died did Israel begin to be oppressed, incrementally.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

So, as pr the record in my above post: Israel was oppressed beginning incrementally, only after Joseph's death.
The oppression did not begin the day Joseph died, but from Joseph's death to the departing of Israel from Egypt was only 139 years. Of those 139, part of them were not years of oppression, but by Miriam's birth, the people were oppressed, and embittered, which is what "Miriam" means, from two Hebrew root etymons meaning bitter and people.