If I understand Calvin correctly, that God's purpose for our redemption is to restore His image, and there may be a certain number souls to accomplish this, would that not limit the number who can be covered by the Blood of Jesus?
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How is "justification" defined?
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Why would there be a limit? To my knowledge we're all made in the image of God. Of course the restoration won't be finished until the End.
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I probably misunderstood the writing. It sounded to me that God may have a number in which He will be satisfied that His image has been restored. Thanks for helping me out with this.
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Christ would stand justified before God because Christ followed the perfectly and the following of the Law perfectly would make a person justified before God.
Christ is described as the righteous one and “righteous” can have the same meaning as justified.
My question about “justification” has to do with the mechanism of how we become justified through faith in Jesus?
The faithful are surely followers (faithful and faith are the same Greek word).
Again, I am looking for the “action” man plays in justification?
Agree
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But being justified isn’t a thing you do. it’s a thing God does. He sets you right with himself. According to Paul, he does this is Christ. Or according to the other definition of justification, it’s how you can be recognized as being right with God.
When does it happen? As always, there’s more than one possible answer. 30 AD, or according to the more speculative sections of the NT, before the creation of the world. But it becomes real in your life through faith (Paul) or being a follower of Jesus (Jesus). Paul’s description in Rom 6 is that we die with Christ and rise to him in new life, something he associates with Baptism. The reason for my caution when I responded to the questions on regeneration is that this doesn’t always happen in the same way. Some people grow up as Christians, and never experience not being a follower of Jesus, though their understanding certainly changes. Others are like Paul, experiencing a dramatic change in their hearts. So I don’t think being justified is a specific experience but that (depending upon your definition) that it reflects a basic orientation of your life.
There is, of course, one action associated with it, namely baptism. John 3:5, Rom 6:4.
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I full agree it is God’s doing through Christ’s sacrifice (ransom payment) on the cross, but that does not explain how/why it happens for some and does not happen for others.
I think we can also look at it logically:
What does it take for a rebellious disobedient child to stand justifiably beside his Loving father?
We understand the loving father forgiving the child and the child repenting and humbly accepting the forgiveness, but is there more that needs to be done if possible?
I have written fair treatment parables:
Parable 1
In an old house there sits above the fireplace a unique large Tiffany Vase with a rich family history. One of seven sons returns home after partying mad at his parents and took the vase and smashes it on the floor. The next day the son is truly sorry about what he has done and asks his parents for forgiveness and the parents are willing to forgive the son, but this is not the first time he has acted rashly. The father has collected every piece of glass from the vase and says to the son: “we will work two hours each night for as long as it takes with super glue putting the vase back together as best we can”. After a month the vase is returned to the mantel for all to see.
Did the family receive restitution from son that smashed the vase?
Was the father looking to repair the old vase with a glued up vase or was the father trying to accomplish something else with this month long effort?
Did the father just need to forgive the son and not go through all this waste of time?
Was the son punished or disciplined and did atonement take place?
In the end did the son return to his pre-smashing status or should he have moved to an even better relationship with his father even a justified/righteous position?
Why return the vase to a place where all can see?
Parable 2
In another house sitting above the fireplace is a unique large Tiffany vase with a rich family history. One of seven sons, who lift home five years earlier, breaks into his parent’s house and takes that vase and smashes it on the floor. This is all caught on the security cameras, so the next day the loving father goes to the son’s house and tells the son he forgives him and is carrying a box with all the glass from the vase and super glue. They are to work together two hours each night to put the vase back together, but the son totally refuses to do anything and throws his father out in the street. The insurance company then goes after the son and takes all he has and puts him in jail.
The father said he forgave the son, but did forgiveness take place? (Matt. 18: 21-35)
Could this son stand “righteous” and “justified” by his father even after spend jail time?
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In the first case no justification is needed. The son is accepted by his father as being in good standing as son the entire time. He is disciplined, but he is disciplined as a son. Forgiveness is needed for the specific offense, but not justification. At least in Protestant theology, justification remains even though we sin. There is disagreement whether it can ever be lost, but not due to a single sin.
In the second case there is reason to doubt whether the son is justified. Not so much because he doesn't make restitution, as because he does not acknowledge his father as Lord. He may be in some sense forgiven for the specific offense. That offense may no longer stand between him and his father. But that may largely be moot.
In the second case there is reason to doubt whether the son is justified. Not so much because he doesn't make restitution, as because he does not acknowledge his father as Lord. He may be in some sense forgiven for the specific offense. That offense may no longer stand between him and his father. But that may largely be moot.
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You also asked whether the sons are righteous. That’s hard to answer for your analogy, because that’s not a word we typically use in that situation.
The term righteous came to be used Jewish theology for a person who lives the way God wants. I’ve looked at uses of the term in Scripture. It doesn’t seem to be used for someone’s momentary status. When people are called righteous, it seems to be referring to their lives as a whole. It doesn’t refer to moral perfection, but to one’s general orientation. A righteous person would repent when they sin. In Greek, righteous and justified are closely related, so the similarity of my definitions should not be a surprise. Justified would be, depending upon meaning, either the recognition that one is righteous or God making / declaring us righteous.
(I note for Protestant reading this, that Scripture does in fact refer to people as righteous. The only place where it is said that no one is righteous is Ps 14:3 and a couple of similar places. But these are clearly laments for the bad condition of the nation, and are not intended to be taken literally or as general doctrinal statements. It is obviously not true, for example, that no one has done good. People are referred to routinely as righteous men in both OT and NT.)
Hence it would be perfectly possible to say that the son was a righteous man who made a mistake. At least in the first example.
The term righteous came to be used Jewish theology for a person who lives the way God wants. I’ve looked at uses of the term in Scripture. It doesn’t seem to be used for someone’s momentary status. When people are called righteous, it seems to be referring to their lives as a whole. It doesn’t refer to moral perfection, but to one’s general orientation. A righteous person would repent when they sin. In Greek, righteous and justified are closely related, so the similarity of my definitions should not be a surprise. Justified would be, depending upon meaning, either the recognition that one is righteous or God making / declaring us righteous.
(I note for Protestant reading this, that Scripture does in fact refer to people as righteous. The only place where it is said that no one is righteous is Ps 14:3 and a couple of similar places. But these are clearly laments for the bad condition of the nation, and are not intended to be taken literally or as general doctrinal statements. It is obviously not true, for example, that no one has done good. People are referred to routinely as righteous men in both OT and NT.)
Hence it would be perfectly possible to say that the son was a righteous man who made a mistake. At least in the first example.
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Galatians 3:6Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.
The confusion with justification arises because of another related term, righteousness, which translators fail when trying to convey what it meant in the honor shame societies of the ANE, in the context of the client patron relationship.
Righteousness had the connotation of, not being found moral, but of being found loyal.
Justification in the Old and the New Covenants
Old Covenant
Luke 18: 10“Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11“The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12‘I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.’ 13“But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, the sinner!’ 14“I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.”
What exactly did the Pharisee do wrong?
The Pharisees did NOT obey the law. They rationalized that since the promise to Abraham was unconditional, all a person had to do to receive the promise was to be born a Jew. To distinguish themselves as Jews they followed the part of the law that identified them as Jews. They observed the rituals, read out loud from the law. They left out justice, mercy and faithfulness to be the image of God.
Luke 11:42"Woe to you Pharisees, because you give God a tenth of your mint, rue and all other kinds of garden herbs, but you neglect justice and the love of God. You should have practiced the latter without leaving the former undone.
Romans 2:13For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God,
but the doers of the law who will be justified.
What did the publican do right? He confessed he was a sinner. Obviously you can't confess your inadequacy unless you try to do good things, and fail. And then you find out that you need God to forgive you, overlook your inadequacy. Jesus knew that the rich young ruler was not following ALL the law, because no one could follow all the law. Different people have different thresholds. Some reach their limit of ability with the ten commandments, some with the 613 precepts. Instead of going through all the requirements, Jesus went to the extreme requirement, to make the young man realise his need for God.
Justification in the old covenant was exaltation, but there is no indication that the publican in the Temple knew he was exalted. Indicating an exaltation in Abraham's bosom, in the afterlife. The temporal life of the publican never changed, he would keep coming back to the Temple and keep asking for forgiveness, chained as he was to a body of death. This is the curse of the law.
However, even though the law killed the ability of the believer to be blessings to the world, because they believed God and attempted to observe all the law, they were exalted in Abraham's bosom, like Lazarus, unlike the rich man who never attempted to follow all the law. When Christ descended to the grave, He released these believers. They were judged, and since they believed God's word, their spirits sit with Him in high places. Since their bodies could not be subdued, these were not resurrected to a resurrection of life, but were discarded. This is why the least in the kingdom of God is greater than the greatest in the old covenant.
New Covenant
Galatians 3:2This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
In the New Covenant, the law has been abolished, since it was a part of the old covenant. Adam and His descendants lived in a situation where they knew good and evil, but could not obey God's Law because of the body of death. What was required to complete the old covenant?
The old covenant was a covenant of requirements and benefits. Like all contracts, it required one party to pay and the other party to provide goods or services. Humanity had lost the benefit of being in God's presence because of culpability, knowing good and evil and doing evil. In God's presence, Adam could, by the Holy Spirit subdue creation, subdue his body. This body had sinful thoughts, could think about disobeying God, could disbelieve God's warning, could attribute bad intentions of God's warning to a deprivation of good things by Him, things like withholding the power of being like God. The only reason Adam could be in God's presence was because these sinful thoughts and disbelief were not sin, because Adam did not have critical facilities, the ability to judge, the ability to know good from evil. This is called juvenility, the absence of complete critical ability, the reason minors are not prosecutable under criminal law. In God's presence, Adam could learn obedience, subdue his body, and then God would have allowed him to acquire the ability to know good from evil. Away from God's presence because of loss of juvenility and subsequent culpability, humanity was stuck. Thankfully, God sent Christ.
The work for Christ was to get humanity back into God's presence without dying, because they were sinful: Adam's original situation. Christ had to get humanity out of the jurisdiction of the law or protect them from the ill effects of being in God's presence whilst still sinful. He couldn't reverse loss of juvenility. However He could suspend law. Humanity was tied to law. The only way humanity could be untied was by death. Christ's death was the death of the old humanity, just as Adam's creation was the beginning of the first humanity's existence.
Christ's obedience led to redemption of humanity in the form of payment of restitution leading to lifting of a sentence, just as Adam's disobedience was the condemnation of humanity, in the form of the removal of juvenility and the pronouncement and execution of a sentence. One led to the end of the power of the law over humanity, the other had led to the operationalization of the jurisdiction of the law on humanity.
The first fruit of this act of obedience was Christ. His death was nullified and he was raised. Into an existence free of Law.
Those who are baptised into Christ are baptised into His death, losing their membership in the old humanity and share in His resurrection into a new life, the life of living an existence free of Law.
Justification in the new covenant is God recognizing our act of loyalty, obedience to the new command to confess our sin of serving Egypt, in order to love, to serve our fellow men, by becoming a child of Abraham, by believing Jesus is our Deliverer, sent to bring us out of Egypt, salvation being through following Him out of Egypt. In hearing with faith, confessing Christ was Lord, not Caesar, not Egypt, we are recognised as loyal members of God's People, and receive the Holy Spirit, moving from death to eternal living. As opposed to the old covenant of justification of doing the works of the law, confessing our failure, being recognized as loyal member of God's People, and being protected by the guardianship of the law. The curse of the law was to be in the old humanity, with no giving of the Holy Spirit, therefore no moving from death to eternal living, no option to being blessings to the world, able to bring demons to submission, heal blindness, lift the veil from eyes, in order to convince people to follow Christ out of Egypt.
In short, old covenant justification had the benefit of the guardianship of the law, protection and preservation from wrath, but no empowerment to eternal living. New Covenant justification had the empowerment to eternal living.
Point to take away
The old covenant requirements, works of the law, were necessary, to bring believer to the realisation of inadequacy, in order to receive forgiveness, and acceptance as a member of God's family, because they believed God's word, that the requirements were important and necessary, not second guess God, by asking as satan did, "Did God really say...?"
Works of the law could lead to justification, but the justification was the guardianship, protection of the law, not going to hell, like the rich man, but resting in Abraham's bosom, like Lazarus, until Christ released him.
Works of the law could not lead to receiving the Spirit, and justification, protection against the efforts of the world to take you back to Egypt. Works of the law could not seat you in high places, with Christ. Believers have the mind of Christ. Out of their inner beings flow streams of living water, words of eternal life. They have the ministry of Moses, of leading God's lost sheep out of Egypt, even the demons submit to them. They should however be happy not because of the latter, but because, like Moses, their names are written in the Book of Life Givers.
Works of Law cannot lead to sanctification, becoming unblemished sacrifices, having the qualification to share in the ministry of Christ, becoming the righteousness of God, becoming sin bearers, sharing in His affliction and making up what remains of His work, toward a better resurrection.
Those who turn back to the works of the law are turning back to a defunct covenant. They are trampling on the new covenant, saying the kingdom is not amongst us, but is yet to come. By observing Sabbath, continuing in works of the law, they are saying the rest has not been given, the rest from our own works.
Hebrews 4:10For the one who enters God's rest has also rested from his works, just as God did from his works.
The confusion with justification arises because of another related term, righteousness, which translators fail when trying to convey what it meant in the honor shame societies of the ANE, in the context of the client patron relationship.
Righteousness had the connotation of, not being found moral, but of being found loyal.
Justification in the Old and the New Covenants
Old Covenant
Luke 18: 10“Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11“The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12‘I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.’ 13“But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, the sinner!’ 14“I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.”
What exactly did the Pharisee do wrong?
The Pharisees did NOT obey the law. They rationalized that since the promise to Abraham was unconditional, all a person had to do to receive the promise was to be born a Jew. To distinguish themselves as Jews they followed the part of the law that identified them as Jews. They observed the rituals, read out loud from the law. They left out justice, mercy and faithfulness to be the image of God.
Luke 11:42"Woe to you Pharisees, because you give God a tenth of your mint, rue and all other kinds of garden herbs, but you neglect justice and the love of God. You should have practiced the latter without leaving the former undone.
Romans 2:13For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God,
but the doers of the law who will be justified.
What did the publican do right? He confessed he was a sinner. Obviously you can't confess your inadequacy unless you try to do good things, and fail. And then you find out that you need God to forgive you, overlook your inadequacy. Jesus knew that the rich young ruler was not following ALL the law, because no one could follow all the law. Different people have different thresholds. Some reach their limit of ability with the ten commandments, some with the 613 precepts. Instead of going through all the requirements, Jesus went to the extreme requirement, to make the young man realise his need for God.
Justification in the old covenant was exaltation, but there is no indication that the publican in the Temple knew he was exalted. Indicating an exaltation in Abraham's bosom, in the afterlife. The temporal life of the publican never changed, he would keep coming back to the Temple and keep asking for forgiveness, chained as he was to a body of death. This is the curse of the law.
However, even though the law killed the ability of the believer to be blessings to the world, because they believed God and attempted to observe all the law, they were exalted in Abraham's bosom, like Lazarus, unlike the rich man who never attempted to follow all the law. When Christ descended to the grave, He released these believers. They were judged, and since they believed God's word, their spirits sit with Him in high places. Since their bodies could not be subdued, these were not resurrected to a resurrection of life, but were discarded. This is why the least in the kingdom of God is greater than the greatest in the old covenant.
New Covenant
Galatians 3:2This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
In the New Covenant, the law has been abolished, since it was a part of the old covenant. Adam and His descendants lived in a situation where they knew good and evil, but could not obey God's Law because of the body of death. What was required to complete the old covenant?
The old covenant was a covenant of requirements and benefits. Like all contracts, it required one party to pay and the other party to provide goods or services. Humanity had lost the benefit of being in God's presence because of culpability, knowing good and evil and doing evil. In God's presence, Adam could, by the Holy Spirit subdue creation, subdue his body. This body had sinful thoughts, could think about disobeying God, could disbelieve God's warning, could attribute bad intentions of God's warning to a deprivation of good things by Him, things like withholding the power of being like God. The only reason Adam could be in God's presence was because these sinful thoughts and disbelief were not sin, because Adam did not have critical facilities, the ability to judge, the ability to know good from evil. This is called juvenility, the absence of complete critical ability, the reason minors are not prosecutable under criminal law. In God's presence, Adam could learn obedience, subdue his body, and then God would have allowed him to acquire the ability to know good from evil. Away from God's presence because of loss of juvenility and subsequent culpability, humanity was stuck. Thankfully, God sent Christ.
The work for Christ was to get humanity back into God's presence without dying, because they were sinful: Adam's original situation. Christ had to get humanity out of the jurisdiction of the law or protect them from the ill effects of being in God's presence whilst still sinful. He couldn't reverse loss of juvenility. However He could suspend law. Humanity was tied to law. The only way humanity could be untied was by death. Christ's death was the death of the old humanity, just as Adam's creation was the beginning of the first humanity's existence.
Christ's obedience led to redemption of humanity in the form of payment of restitution leading to lifting of a sentence, just as Adam's disobedience was the condemnation of humanity, in the form of the removal of juvenility and the pronouncement and execution of a sentence. One led to the end of the power of the law over humanity, the other had led to the operationalization of the jurisdiction of the law on humanity.
The first fruit of this act of obedience was Christ. His death was nullified and he was raised. Into an existence free of Law.
Those who are baptised into Christ are baptised into His death, losing their membership in the old humanity and share in His resurrection into a new life, the life of living an existence free of Law.
Justification in the new covenant is God recognizing our act of loyalty, obedience to the new command to confess our sin of serving Egypt, in order to love, to serve our fellow men, by becoming a child of Abraham, by believing Jesus is our Deliverer, sent to bring us out of Egypt, salvation being through following Him out of Egypt. In hearing with faith, confessing Christ was Lord, not Caesar, not Egypt, we are recognised as loyal members of God's People, and receive the Holy Spirit, moving from death to eternal living. As opposed to the old covenant of justification of doing the works of the law, confessing our failure, being recognized as loyal member of God's People, and being protected by the guardianship of the law. The curse of the law was to be in the old humanity, with no giving of the Holy Spirit, therefore no moving from death to eternal living, no option to being blessings to the world, able to bring demons to submission, heal blindness, lift the veil from eyes, in order to convince people to follow Christ out of Egypt.
In short, old covenant justification had the benefit of the guardianship of the law, protection and preservation from wrath, but no empowerment to eternal living. New Covenant justification had the empowerment to eternal living.
Point to take away
The old covenant requirements, works of the law, were necessary, to bring believer to the realisation of inadequacy, in order to receive forgiveness, and acceptance as a member of God's family, because they believed God's word, that the requirements were important and necessary, not second guess God, by asking as satan did, "Did God really say...?"
Works of the law could lead to justification, but the justification was the guardianship, protection of the law, not going to hell, like the rich man, but resting in Abraham's bosom, like Lazarus, until Christ released him.
Works of the law could not lead to receiving the Spirit, and justification, protection against the efforts of the world to take you back to Egypt. Works of the law could not seat you in high places, with Christ. Believers have the mind of Christ. Out of their inner beings flow streams of living water, words of eternal life. They have the ministry of Moses, of leading God's lost sheep out of Egypt, even the demons submit to them. They should however be happy not because of the latter, but because, like Moses, their names are written in the Book of Life Givers.
Works of Law cannot lead to sanctification, becoming unblemished sacrifices, having the qualification to share in the ministry of Christ, becoming the righteousness of God, becoming sin bearers, sharing in His affliction and making up what remains of His work, toward a better resurrection.
Those who turn back to the works of the law are turning back to a defunct covenant. They are trampling on the new covenant, saying the kingdom is not amongst us, but is yet to come. By observing Sabbath, continuing in works of the law, they are saying the rest has not been given, the rest from our own works.
Hebrews 4:10For the one who enters God's rest has also rested from his works, just as God did from his works.
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I was not suggesting both sons were part of the “elect” in a saved condition at the time of their disobedience, but child like all humans are children of the father.
Are you like I am suggesting and others have said assuming: being righteous and being justified convey the same idea (even though justified is a more legal term)?
If as rebellious disobedient children we are looking to stand “comfortably” by our father (on earth or in heaven) really in a close relationship, we need more than just being forgiven and even accepting that forgiveness. We all need the benefits that come from being Lovingly disciplined for our offences. This is in no way “restitution” just as an earthly parent does not require restitution from their children, but use the offence to train/teach/experience together/mature/benefit to develop an even better relationship then they had prior to the offence.
If we accept God’s loving disciplining correctly we be transformed into a better child by it and have a much closer relationship (God/Christ go through it with us).
Refusing to accept God’s Loving discipline in this life means you avoid being able to comfortably stand by your Father, being in a right relationship (righteous/justified).
Ro. 3:25-26 talks about our being justified:
From Romans 3: 25 Paul tells us: God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. …
Another way of saying this would be “God offers the ransom payment (Christ Crucified and the blood that flowed from Him) to those that have the faith to receive that ransom.
God is not the undeserving kidnapper nor is satan, but the unbeliever is himself is holding back the child of God from the Father, that child that is within every one of us.
Paul goes on to explain:
Ro. 3: 25 …He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished
I do not like the word “unpunished” since the same Greek word also means “undisciplined”.
So prior to the cross repentant forgiven people (saved individuals) could not be fairly and justly disciplined for the rebellious disobedience, but after the cross if we repent (come to our senses and turn to God) we can be fairly and justly disciplined and yet survive.
God and Christ would have personally preferred Christ’s blood to remain flowing through his veins, but it is I that need to have that blood outside of Christ flowing over me and in me cleansing my heart. I need to feel that blood and know it is cleansing me.
If you think about the crucifixion, you would realize at the time, Christ was on the cross God in heaven out of empathy/Love for Christ would be experience an even greater pain than Christ. We as our Love grows and our realization of what we personally caused Christ to go through will feel the death blow to our hearts (Acts 2:37). We will experience the greatest pain we could experience and still live, which is the way God is disciplining us today and for all the right reasons because Loving discipline correctly accepted results in a wondrous right relationship with our Parent.
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I would say that the same people are righteous and justified, but the words don’t mean quite the same thing. Righteous, at least outside of Paul, focuses on people who live as God wants. Justification is either a recognition that one is righteous, or God making or declaring one righteous. I.e. it focuses more on status of being or being made righteous than on the way of life of the righteous.
Discipline is something a father does, but it’s not what makes someone their child. Nor does a parent’s choice not to discipline someone or the child’s evading of discipline, make them not a child. At a certain point (depending upon your position on whether salvation can be lost) someone can be completely apostate, but plenty of children and Christians manage to avoid discipline on many issues without being disowned by their fathers or Father. Not that it’s acceptable.
You sort of hate to call someone who is only remaining part of the family by grace either righteous or justified, but that’s most of us most of the time, and I think we still have to use the words. Even though that’s not the kind of person you’d really want to put forward as an example of a righteous man.
Fortunately, God considers even his disobedient children to be children, simply because they are part of the family (Paul: because they have faith, Jesus: because they are his followers). He still treats them as righteous. Paul's version of this is that he imputes our faith as righteousness.
Discipline is something a father does, but it’s not what makes someone their child. Nor does a parent’s choice not to discipline someone or the child’s evading of discipline, make them not a child. At a certain point (depending upon your position on whether salvation can be lost) someone can be completely apostate, but plenty of children and Christians manage to avoid discipline on many issues without being disowned by their fathers or Father. Not that it’s acceptable.
You sort of hate to call someone who is only remaining part of the family by grace either righteous or justified, but that’s most of us most of the time, and I think we still have to use the words. Even though that’s not the kind of person you’d really want to put forward as an example of a righteous man.
Fortunately, God considers even his disobedient children to be children, simply because they are part of the family (Paul: because they have faith, Jesus: because they are his followers). He still treats them as righteous. Paul's version of this is that he imputes our faith as righteousness.
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The only difference we might be having is the idea of God “making or declaring” a person righteous with or without the person being righteous? I would say being righteous includes being in a right relationship with God, which might include experiencing some kind of disciplining if disciplining is possible.
If the Father is not disciplining you when He can are you a child of His?
Heb. 12: 6
because the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son.”
7 Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children. For what children are not disciplined by their father? 8 If you are not disciplined—and everyone undergoes discipline—then you are not legitimate, not true sons and daughters at all. 9 Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of spirits and live! 10 They disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, in order that we may share in his holiness. 11 No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.
There are lots of “weak” Christians, but that may be due to the lack of severe persecution in the West. The underground church in China does not seem to be having the same problem.
The lamp stand was still in 5 of the 7 churches where the Christians were having huge issues, but they were being threatened with the removal of their lampstand if they did not straighten up, so how long will God wait?
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Open Heart
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Exactly. Thank you for pointing this out. So many Christians just don't understand the Jewish perspective.
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Open Heart
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I'm surprised there hasn't been much discussion of the Catholic view on Justification. For Catholics, Justifiction is divided into two categories. There is Initial Justification, or what protestants call getting saved, which is by faith alone. But that's just the beginning. It is followed by a lifetime of regular Justification, what protestants call sanctification, and this very much does include good works.
A key to understanding justification is that there is no "alone." Faith "alone" is dead. Works "alone" are futile. Only a working faith is real.
Salvation is not a one time event, but a process, a walk. "We are being saved," (2 Cor 2:15) and "we will be saved. (1 Cor 3:15) And so, "we work out our salvation with fear and trembling." (Phil 2:12) "He who perseveres to the end will be saved." (Matt 24:13)
A key to understanding justification is that there is no "alone." Faith "alone" is dead. Works "alone" are futile. Only a working faith is real.
Salvation is not a one time event, but a process, a walk. "We are being saved," (2 Cor 2:15) and "we will be saved. (1 Cor 3:15) And so, "we work out our salvation with fear and trembling." (Phil 2:12) "He who perseveres to the end will be saved." (Matt 24:13)
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expos4ever
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The phrase “justification by faith” is often interpreted in a lawcourt setting – we are on trial and would be sentenced to eternal loss for our sins but our faith in Jesus secures our acquittal since He takes the punishment otherwise due us. Or some close variant. But there is an argument that the most fundamental issue connected to the Biblical notion of justification is not so much our legal status but instead the matter of whether we are reckoned to belong to the true people of God (admittedly, what this means is perhaps obscure). Furthermore, this particular model of justification has an eschatological character – while the members of God’s true family will only be formally identified in the future, there are markers that tell us in advance who is “in”. Note that even if one insists that “legal status” and not covenant membership (being found to be in the true people of God) is the fundamental issue associated with justification, the eschatological dimension is still relevant inasmuch as those who will ultimately found to be “in the right” can be identified in the present. What is the eschatological marker in either case? Faith
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Hi Open Heart, ALL faith is not dead faith, it couldn't be, because a "dead faith" results in, well, nothing
The reason we choose to do "good works" and live a holy lifestyle (rather than continue in our sinful one), is due to the fact that we have faith and are already, "in Christ" As St. Paul tells us, "We are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works" (Ephesians 2:10), not because of them.So it is by "faith" (which is just another way of saying, by "faith alone"), that we gain the desire to please God and do the good works in the first place, and to do all the other things that "accompany" salvation
You continue:
Actually, I think you may have missed one, the part that actually 'begins' the process. John 5:24, in fact, could not be clearer about that "first" point, that, "We ARE saved". That whosoever "hears" and "believes" HAS (IOW, is in the present possession of) "eternal life", and that such a person will not be condemned in the judgment, but "has (already) passed" (perfect tense) from death to life. IOW, we are "saved" from the moment we first believe
(see John 5:24 below)
So while I, as a Protestant, certainly believe that we are justified by "faith alone", in a very real sense I am also in full agreement with you, because the kind of faith that justifies, is NEVER alone*. IOW, someone who "claims" to be a Christian but cannot show that he/she is one by what they do and by the way they choose to live, never became a Christian to begin with (no matter what they may "claim").
As for the last two verses, quickly, were are called to, "work out our salvation", but when we work something "out", we always "work out" that which we ALREADY possess! St. Paul, who was addressing the "believers" at Philippi, doesn't tell them (or us) to, "work up" or "work at" or "work for", their salvation, rather, he told them to "work out" that which they already possessed.
As for Christians, we "are" the ones who, persevere to the end, because the One who began a "good work" in us, is also the One who will see us through this life to Glory
(Philippians 1:6; Hebrews 7:25)Yours in Christ,
David
*One last time for clarity's sake
, that which "accompanies" our salvation (good works/holy living) is the "result", not the cause of our salvation ... or of its continuance. Salvation is all about God and what He did/does for us, it's not about us and what we do for Him 
"He who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me,
has eternal life, & does not come into judgment,
but has passed out of death into life"
John 5:24
has eternal life, & does not come into judgment,
but has passed out of death into life"
John 5:24
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Open Heart
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I agree 100% with what you said that I highlighted. If you say this, then how can you say we are saved by faith alone? It just doesn't make sense to me. It appears to me that you are doing logical back flips to try to make a doctrine work that just doesn't really work.
Peace to you this Lord's Day.
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Open Heart
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From Merriam Webster:
work out
verb
transitive verb
a : to bring about by labor and exertion <work out your own salvation — Philippians 2:12 (Authorized Version)>
b : to solve (as a problem) by a process of reasoning or calculation
c : to devise, arrange, or achieve by resolving difficulties
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EmSw
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So, a true Christian is one who has faith and shows he is one by what they do and choose to live. One who only professes faith, but does choose to live as a Christian, is not one. Am I correct? A hearer of the word and not a doer is not saved, correct?
That's pretty much what James says -
James 1
21 Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.
22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.
Notice the order James gave us?
1. Lay aside ALL filthiness and overflow of wickedness.
2. Receive the implanted word with meekness.
3. Salvation
James thus concludes - being a doer of the word (laying aside all filthiness) and receiving the word (believing) is able to save our soul. Being just a hearer and not a doer, we deceive ourselves.
One last time for clarity's sake
So, I will ask, is one saved if works are omitted?
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