How is God just?

[JGG]

This was a question I asked in a thread which was shut down some time after. Some people wished to answer it.

How is God just?

Let's suppose two men murder two women. Let's further suppose that one man is Christian, one man is not. Now, based on what I have been told the Christian man receives Grace and is allowed to enter heaven, while the non-Christian is sent to hell for all eternity.

Here's where I have problems:

First, if both men are guilty of the same crime, how is it just that they receive different punishments?

If the punishment for this crime is eternal punishment then God allows the Christian to escape justice rather than enforce it. Furthermore, one woman's killer sees justice the other's does not.

If the punishment for the crime is that one must confess and repent, the non-Christian's punishment is a few leagues beyond excessive and not just. The non-Christian is punished for eternity, the Christian is punished for relative moments. Also, it assumes that the Christian confesses and repents but the non-Christian does not. I don't see how such an assumption is made. Furthermore, if confession and repentance makes the balance of justice, what is the significance of Jesus' sacrifice?

But beyond that, how do we know God is just? How is God just?

 

[lt11]

This was a question I asked in a thread which was shut down some time after. Some people wished to answer it. [bless and do not curse] How is God just? [bless and do not curse] Let's suppose two men murder two women. Let's further suppose that one man is Christian, one man is not. Now, based on what I have been told the Christian man receives Grace and is allowed to enter heaven, while the non-Christian is sent to hell for all eternity. Here's where I have problems: [bless and do not curse] First, if both men are guilty of the same crime, how is it just that they receive different punishments? If the punishment for this crime is eternal punishment then God allows the Christian to escape justice rather than enforce it. Furthermore, one woman's killer sees justice the other's does not. If the punishment for the crime is that one must confess and repent, the non-Christian's punishment is a few leagues beyond excessive and not just. The non-Christian is punished for eternity, the Christian is punished for relative moments. Also, it assumes that the Christian confesses and repents but the non-Christian does not. I don't see how such an assumption is made. Furthermore, if confession and repentance makes the balance of justice, what is the significance of Jesus' sacrifice? But beyond that, how do we know God is just? How is God just?

Hi I really wish I knew how to highlight certain parts of your quote but I don't know how to do it. I doubt that the Killer who identifies as a Christian is really a follower of Christ. The Bible specifically says that there are people who identify as Christian who aren't saved not saying that they never can be saved but I doubt that the killer would be what the Bible describes as a true Follower if he is killing someone with the thought that it's ok because I'm covered by Jesus. The Bible does make it clear that there is nothing that you can do to earn salvation but that true believers will change because of receiving that salvation. True followers see things differently to how they saw things before there conversion. Believers of course will not be completely perfect but they will be changed enough to say that they wouldn't be going around thinking grace is a license to get away with whatever they want

 

[Colter]

This was a question I asked in a thread which was shut down some time after. Some people wished to answer it.
[bless and do not curse]
How is God just?
[bless and do not curse]
Let's suppose two men murder two women. Let's further suppose that one man is Christian, one man is not. Now, based on what I have been told the Christian man receives Grace and is allowed to enter heaven, while the non-Christian is sent to hell for all eternity.

Here's where I have problems:
[bless and do not curse]
First, if both men are guilty of the same crime, how is it just that they receive different punishments?

If the punishment for this crime is eternal punishment then God allows the Christian to escape justice rather than enforce it. Furthermore, one woman's killer sees justice the other's does not.

If the punishment for the crime is that one must confess and repent, the non-Christian's punishment is a few leagues beyond excessive and not just. The non-Christian is punished for eternity, the Christian is punished for relative moments. Also, it assumes that the Christian confesses and repents but the non-Christian does not. I don't see how such an assumption is made. Furthermore, if confession and repentance makes the balance of justice, what is the significance of Jesus' sacrifice?

But beyond that, how do we know God is just? How is God just?

I am a disciple of Jesus.

You have rightly pointed out and illustrated obvious inconsistencies within common Christian theology. I've noticed examples such as yours since I was a child and could first reason about what I was being presented with in the relatively moderate Methodist church that I attended.

* Jesus taught a gospel 3+ years before the cross, a reasonable person should understand that it wasn't Christianity's gospel of "Christ and him crucified" because obviously the cross had not happened yet, Jesus had only alluded to his impending death but never as a human sacrifice.

* A gallon can't fit into a pint, Jesus was the gallon, he was only partly understood even by his apostles. Man is the pint, we are limited and tempted to speculate and form concepts based on our limited understanding a divinity.

* If one rescues Jesus from the bible, if you take the red letters out and compare them with so much of what Jesus did not say, yet Christians teach, you will begin to realize that there was a religion of Jesus and a religion about Jesus.

* There is no such thing as hell, that's a fabrication by the shamans of the priest class who used fear to control minds who would believe in a tyrant God. If a mind believes such a thing as eternal torture, then it's best that they aren't liberated from those older superstitions to fast, they could do real damage to themselves.

* In truth there is life and there is death. Those who reject the spiritual life do not awake from the sleep of death. The process of judgment of such souls is so fair as to win the approval of even the candidate on trial himself.

* There are civil laws in different nations in different ages that man is subject to by default of his residence. Then there is the heart of the individual who is subject to Gods justice. Sin is to know the will of God yet choose to do otherwise.

* Believers are rightly confused by this idea of Gods justice because when they read the Hebrews exaggerated history of how they said God ran things in the past, the God of Israel is portrayed in an awful light!

* Jesus Christ revealed the true God, without saying it, without needing to say it, Jesus proved the old concepts of deity to be inadequate.



.

 

[Hospes]

This was a question I asked in a thread which was shut down some time after. Some people wished to answer it.
[bless and do not curse]
How is God just?
[bless and do not curse]
Let's suppose two men murder two women. Let's further suppose that one man is Christian, one man is not. Now, based on what I have been told the Christian man receives Grace and is allowed to enter heaven, while the non-Christian is sent to hell for all eternity.

Here's where I have problems:
[bless and do not curse]
First, if both men are guilty of the same crime, how is it just that they receive different punishments?

If the punishment for this crime is eternal punishment then God allows the Christian to escape justice rather than enforce it. Furthermore, one woman's killer sees justice the other's does not.

If the punishment for the crime is that one must confess and repent, the non-Christian's punishment is a few leagues beyond excessive and not just. The non-Christian is punished for eternity, the Christian is punished for relative moments. Also, it assumes that the Christian confesses and repents but the non-Christian does not. I don't see how such an assumption is made. Furthermore, if confession and repentance makes the balance of justice, what is the significance of Jesus' sacrifice?

But beyond that, how do we know God is just? How is God just?

I think the Apostle Paul is answering your question - which is a good one - in this passage:

But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. (Romans 3:21-26 ESV)​

In short, Paul is writing the sin-debt owed by "one who has faith in Jesus" is paid in full by Jesus. In your example, the debt owed by your two murderers are paid in two different ways: one is paid by Jesus and the other is paid by the murderer himself.
Another couple of useful passages:

And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. (Colossians 2:13-14 ESV)

But he was pierced for our transgressions;
he was crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,
and with his wounds we are healed.
All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned—every one—to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all. (Isaiah 53:5-6 ESV),​

BTW, the notion of the "punishment for the crime is that one must confess and repent" is not Christian. Christians do not suffer the punishment they have richly earned.

Hope this helps.

 

[JGG]

Hi I really wish I knew how to highlight certain parts of your quote but I don't know how to do it. I doubt that the Killer who identifies as a Christian is really a follower of Christ. The Bible specifically says that there are people who identify as Christian who aren't saved not saying that they never can be saved but I doubt that the killer would be what the Bible describes as a true Follower if he is killing someone with the thought that it's ok because I'm covered by Jesus. The Bible does make it clear that there is nothing that you can do to earn salvation but that true believers will change because of receiving that salvation. True followers see things differently to how they saw things before there conversion. Believers of course will not be completely perfect but they will be changed enough to say that they wouldn't be going around thinking grace is a license to get away with whatever they want

Well, two things on this:

1. From what I understand, a sin like lying is no better than a sin like murder. That is to say that lying carries the same weight of sin as murder. Basically, if a True Christian is capable of a "minor sin" they just are capable of a "major sin" as sin is sin.

2. I'm purposely using what I perceive as a "major sin" to illustrate this point. Murder is to stand in for those "little sins" that a Christian does commit like lying or hate. If my example is true for murder, then it is equally true for lying, lust, hate, rape, or what have you.

 

[JGG]

I hope you don't mind, I'm skipping right to the end.

BTW, the notion of the "punishment for the crime is that one must confess and repent" is not Christian. Christians do not suffer the punishment they have richly earned.
Hope this helps.

Not exactly. Essentially you have just restated my central premise, but in a more direct way. If Christians do not suffer the punishment they deserve, then how can we claim that God is just? I would propose that not only is God unjust, but thwarts justice, or stands in the way of justice. Do you disagree? If someone deserves punishment, but does not receive it justice has not been done. We cannot say that God is just.

I guess my question comes in two parts:

1. How can we say that God is just to begin with?

2. How can we say that God is just when He appears to actually thwart justice?

 

[lt11]

This was a question I asked in a thread which was shut down some time after. Some people wished to answer it. [bless and do not curse] How is God just? [bless and do not curse] Let's suppose two men murder two women. Let's further suppose that one man is Christian, one man is not. Now, based on what I have been told the Christian man receives Grace and is allowed to enter heaven, while the non-Christian is sent to hell for all eternity. Here's where I have problems: [bless and do not curse] First, if both men are guilty of the same crime, how is it just that they receive different punishments? If the punishment for this crime is eternal punishment then God allows the Christian to escape justice rather than enforce it. Furthermore, one woman's killer sees justice the other's does not. If the punishment for the crime is that one must confess and repent, the non-Christian's punishment is a few leagues beyond excessive and not just. The non-Christian is punished for eternity, the Christian is punished for relative moments. Also, it assumes that the Christian confesses and repents but the non-Christian does not. I don't see how such an assumption is made. Furthermore, if confession and repentance makes the balance of justice, what is the significance of Jesus' sacrifice? But beyond that, how do we know God is just? How is God just?

I didn't realise that I never touched on the confession repentance part of you quote. In the Bible there is a chapter which is addressed to Christians about the topic of sin if you read the first three chapters of 1John it talks about how I said that a Christian is different after his acceptance of the salvation that only comes through the work of Jesus on the cross but that if we are honest with ourselves that we still do sin even when we are Christian but that if we confess our sins God is faithful and just and will be forgive our sins it not only say that it says he will purify us. After that is said the writer of this chapter says that this was written so that the Christian would not sin but that if they did sin That we have advocate with The father which is Christ. As for the topic of repentance it is not something we do to get into heaven. Repenting shows our heart repentance is turning away from our sin that we confessed not so that we can get into heaven but it is more like not repeating the same action because of our love for our Lord and saviour.

 

[preacher4truth]

This was a question I asked in a thread which was shut down some time after. Some people wished to answer it.

How is God just?

Let's suppose two men murder two women. Let's further suppose that one man is Christian, one man is not. Now, based on what I have been told the Christian man receives Grace and is allowed to enter heaven, while the non-Christian is sent to hell for all eternity.

Here's where I have problems:

First, if both men are guilty of the same crime, how is it just that they receive different punishments?

If the punishment for this crime is eternal punishment then God allows the Christian to escape justice rather than enforce it. Furthermore, one woman's killer sees justice the other's does not.

If the punishment for the crime is that one must confess and repent, the non-Christian's punishment is a few leagues beyond excessive and not just. The non-Christian is punished for eternity, the Christian is punished for relative moments. Also, it assumes that the Christian confesses and repents but the non-Christian does not. I don't see how such an assumption is made. Furthermore, if confession and repentance makes the balance of justice, what is the significance of Jesus' sacrifice?

But beyond that, how do we know God is just? How is God just?

God allowed the one to 'escape' because of the fact the justice of his sin was laid upon the Christ of God, Isaiah 53:10. Romans 3:25-26 express this as well -- that is that God is just and the justifier. I'd suggest a study on this passage and subject as it is of great importance and substance. Paul Washer does a good job of this in his book 'The Gospel's Power and Message'. As for this 'if confession and repentance makes the balance of justice' as you've stated, well, it doesn't, it is Christ who justifies which is a one time act, confession and repentance are evidences of salvation, not the cause. The significance of Christs sacrifice is that it one time for all time perfects those who are being sanctified -- Hebrews 10:14.

 

[lt11]

Well, two things on this: 1. From what I understand, a sin like lying is no better than a sin like murder. That is to say that lying carries the same weight of sin as murder. Basically, if a True Christian is capable of a "minor sin" they just are capable of a "major sin" as sin is sin. 2. I'm purposely using what I perceive as a "major sin" to illustrate this point. Murder is to stand in for those "little sins" that a Christian does commit like lying or hate. If my example is true for murder, then it is equally thetrue for lying, lust, hate, rape, or what have you.

yes I understandable what you are saying yes no matter what sin separates us from God whether they are big or small but once you are forgiven because of the work of the cross which Christians put their faith in for salvation there is a new process happening which is sanctification where we are conforming into the image of Christ who is sinless the change in our hearts and perception of the world and of the fact that we no longer wish to sin but be set apart begins the journey of sanctification we we will follow the words of our Bible. Yes we will still be human beings who make mistakes so sins will happen but I as a Christian do not try to go about just staying the way I was the day I was Saved

 

[lt11]

God allowed the one to 'escape' because of the fact the justice of his sin was laid upon the Christ of God, Isaiah 53:10. Romans 2:25-26 express this as well -- that is that God is just and the justifier. I'd suggest a study on this passage and subject as it is of great importance and substance. Paul Washer does a good job of this in his book 'The Gospel's Power and Message'. As for this 'if confession and repentance makes the balance of justice' as you've stated, well, it doesn't, it is Christ who justifies which is a one time act, confession and repentance are evidences of salvation, not the cause. The significance of Christs sacrifice is that it one time for all time perfects those who are being sanctified -- Hebrews 10:14.

Thankyou for saying this I find it hard to explain things sometimes

 

[preacher4truth]

Thankyou for saying this I find it hard to explain things sometimes

Thanks. It is a fascinating truth which we cannot truly understand. Imputation is difficult to understand as to 'how'. Of course God is wholly other and we cannot understand His ways.

Also I made a typo in my last reply -- it should read Romans 3 not Romans 2.

 

[ViaCrucis]

If we suppose that divine justice is a matter of punishing evil doers, then it would be regarded as unjust for God to pardon the sins of any rather than reckon all condemned. But the biblical concept of divine justice is not that of a punitive, punishing justice but of a healing, restorative justice.

The justice of God is revealed in the reality of sinners pardoned, and set right (iustitia) with God and one another. St. Paul in Romans 1 says that by the Gospel the justice of God is revealed. By this the apostle does not mean that justice by which sinners are condemned to hell, but rather that justice by which sinners are reconciled to God. That is, are justified, are made just.

This is the merciful and gracious justice of God, which is the kind of justice which the Bible frequently points to when talking about God's justice. God's justice by which the weak are protected, the sick made well, the hungry fed, and the sinner forgiven. God's justice is about the healing of the world, not the condemnation of the world.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[TheImmortalJellyfish]

This was a question I asked in a thread which was shut down some time after. Some people wished to answer it.

How is God just?

Let's suppose two men murder two women. Let's further suppose that one man is Christian, one man is not. Now, based on what I have been told the Christian man receives Grace and is allowed to enter heaven, while the non-Christian is sent to hell for all eternity.

Here's where I have problems:

First, if both men are guilty of the same crime, how is it just that they receive different punishments?

The only unforgivable sin is disbelief in God. (ROM 3:22) You are subject to law enforcement here on Earth regardless.

If the punishment for this crime is eternal punishment then God allows the Christian to escape justice rather than enforce it. Furthermore, one woman's killer sees justice the other's does not.

Again, the punishment for this crime is not eternal damnation, but the Bible does say "thou shall not murder" (note: "kill" and "murder" are two different things in the original languages. "Kill" refers to war-time situations).

If the punishment for the crime is that one must confess and repent, the non-Christian's punishment is a few leagues beyond excessive and not just. The non-Christian is punished for eternity, the Christian is punished for relative moments.

Anyone who thinks that the ability to just confess and move on gives them carte blanche to go around breaking the law is in violation of many verses of scripture. One example is Galatians ch. 6.

Also, it assumes that the Christian confesses and repents but the non-Christian does not. I don't see how such an assumption is made. Furthermore, if confession and repentance makes the balance of justice, what is the significance of Jesus' sacrifice?

I'm a little confused...you're saying a non-believer can confess and repent to God? How is this possible if he doesn't believe? God knows the heart (mind), so you can't just "pretend"...

But beyond that, how do we know God is just? How is God just?

Because He has always provided a way to be saved from eternal damnation, since we cannot do it in our sinfulness alone, because we're not perfect. It is not our fault that we were all born into sin...it is our fault if we do nothing about it, despite the warnings in the Bible.

A Christian can try to justify murdering someone all he wants, but it's still murder, and it's still sin in the eyes of God. It is not, however, unforgivable. If it was, then even accidental deaths caused by negligence on someone's part would be grounds for eternal damnation. Would that be just?

At the end of the day, you see that God is not a babysitter...everyone is free to do what they like, believe or not. But man will always, always be accountable for his actions on Earth.

 

[preacher4truth]

If we suppose that divine justice is a matter of punishing evil doers, then it would be regarded as unjust for God to pardon the sins of any rather than reckon all condemned. But the biblical concept of divine justice is not that of a punitive, punishing justice but of a healing, restorative justice.

The justice of God is revealed in the reality of sinners pardoned, and set right (iustitia) with God and one another. St. Paul in Romans 1 says that by the Gospel the justice of God is revealed. By this the apostle does not mean that justice by which sinners are condemned to hell, but rather that justice by which sinners are reconciled to God. That is, are justified, are made just.

This is the merciful and gracious justice of God, which is the kind of justice which the Bible frequently points to when talking about God's justice. God's justice by which the weak are protected, the sick made well, the hungry fed, and the sinner forgiven. God's justice is about the healing of the world, not the condemnation of the world.

-CryptoLutheran

Thanks for your post. In all actuality the justice of God does not end with healing 'the world' but in also punishing sin in which He is also just in so doing, that is, in condemning the wicked.

 

[TheImmortalJellyfish]

...or you could look at it this way:

The very fact that non-believers exist here on Earth is proof of God's justice.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Thanks for your post. In all actuality the justice of God does not end with healing 'the world' but in also punishing sin in which He is also just in so doing, that is, in condemning the wicked.

It's a matter of Law/Gospel.

Properly understanding what the Law is and what the Law does, and then also properly understanding what the Gospel is and what the Gospel does. And always making the right distinction between the two.

The Law justly condemns the sinner because the Law is holy, righteous, good. Because the sinner, by being a sinner, is sinful and has violated the just commands of God--to be good, to do justice, to love our neighbor as ourselves.

The Gospel brings forgiveness of sin and reconciliation with God because of the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Rendering the sinner justified before God on Christ's account, and delivering to the sinner the promises of God that, on Christ's account, he/she will stand justified on the Last Day and be counted righteous entering into eternal life in the world to come.

It is of the Gospel that Paul says, "by it is the justice (or righteousness) of God revealed".

So yes. There is that justice or righteousness by which the sinner is reckoned a sinner and thus condemned by his/her own sins. There is also that justice or righteousness by which God justifies the sinner on Christ's account by what Christ has done, imputed to the sinner freely.

But it is the justice or righteousness by which, in Christ, God is reconciling the world that lay at the heart of the Christian message; that God is healing and restoring the world. That justice or righteousness by which we, as the unjust, stand condemned in our own sins on account of our own injustice and unrighteousness, is not the principle word we understand that God wishes to speak to the world, the word which God wishes to speak to the world is that Word which became flesh and dwelt among us, and who suffered the death on the cross for the sakes of sinful men that they might have life and peace with God.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Hawkins]

This was a question I asked in a thread which was shut down some time after. Some people wished to answer it.

How is God just?

Let's suppose two men murder two women. Let's further suppose that one man is Christian, one man is not. Now, based on what I have been told the Christian man receives Grace and is allowed to enter heaven, while the non-Christian is sent to hell for all eternity.

Here's where I have problems:

First, if both men are guilty of the same crime, how is it just that they receive different punishments?

If the punishment for this crime is eternal punishment then God allows the Christian to escape justice rather than enforce it. Furthermore, one woman's killer sees justice the other's does not.

If the punishment for the crime is that one must confess and repent, the non-Christian's punishment is a few leagues beyond excessive and not just. The non-Christian is punished for eternity, the Christian is punished for relative moments. Also, it assumes that the Christian confesses and repents but the non-Christian does not. I don't see how such an assumption is made. Furthermore, if confession and repentance makes the balance of justice, what is the significance of Jesus' sacrifice?

But beyond that, how do we know God is just? How is God just?

The Bible said that faith without work is dead. If you have the correct kind of faith (as required by salvation of our New Covenant), you won't commit the kind of sins such as murdering a woman. To put it another way, if you murder woman then the faith you have may not be the kind as required for your salvation. That is, God reserves the right to reject you by saying, "I don't know you, depart from me. Not those saying Oh Lord Oh Lord will be saved."

So in your example, both the "christian" and non-christian may be the unsaved. Anyway, we can't judge in this case who is saved or who is not.

From another perspective, we are all sinners in God's eye, we are the dead and the unsaved by default, whether we committed murder or not. God however chooses to save those who are willing to repent. It is also like a 2-way decision. God also contributes to drawing people to Christ. God is not a passive agent in your repentance. God may actively draw you near to Christ, only then one day you may choose to repent and turn to Him.

The chances are, the possibility of God drawing a murderer is much much lower than the possibility that He chooses to draw near a non-murderer.

An analogy is that even when we consider that our world is a polluted world, we will still choose a less polluted area to stay. Similarly, God may choose to stay away from those who sin more frequently and more seriously. it is said that He will cover His face when you are sinning.

2 cents.

 

[lt11]

The Bible said that faith without work is dead. If you have the correct kind of faith (as required by salvation of our New Covenant), you won't commit the kind of sins such as murdering a woman. To put it another way, if you murder woman then the faith you have may not be the kind as required for your salvation. That is, God reserves the right to reject you by saying, "I don't know you, depart from me. Not those saying Oh Lord Oh Lord will be saved." So in your example, both the "christian" and non-christian may be the unsaved. Anyway, we can't judge in this case who is saved or who is not. From another perspective, we are all sinners in God's eye, we are the dead and the unsaved by default, whether we committed murder or not. God however chooses to save those who are willing to repent. It is also like a 2-way decision. God also contributes to drawing people to Christ. God is not a passive agent in your repentance. God may actively draw you near to Christ, only then one day you may choose to repent and turn to Him. The chances are, the possibility of God drawing a murderer is much much lower than the possibility that He chooses to draw near a non-murderer. An analogy is that even when we consider that our world is a polluted world, we will still choose a less polluted area to stay. Similarly, God may choose to stay away from those who sin more frequently and more seriously. it is said that He will cover His face when you are sinning. 2 cents.

I wouldn't count out the murders and other such sins because I think that a lot of the New Testament is written by Paul who was a persecutor of Christians. I don't think that we should try to make distinctions on who is more likely to be saved I think we should just explain the Gospel and pray for those who are without hope in this moment so that through Christ that they may have hope tomorrow

 

[JGG]

God allowed the one to 'escape' because of the fact the justice of his sin was laid upon the Christ of God

That's still not just. Justice is not having someone else suffer punishment for your crime.

 

[preacher4truth]

That's still not just. Justice is not having someone else suffer punishment for your crime.

It's Biblical and Divine justice. But then we have a reason for Proverbs 18:26.