How is Easter on 3/27/16 before Passover 4/22/16???

[Mockingbird0]

Don't know what this thread is on about. The Great and Holy Feast of Pascha, the Resurrection of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, is this coming Sunday.

The title of the thread presupposes (as does your statement) that the lunar month that the Rabbinic Jewish calendar designates as 'Abib/Nisan is the only lunar month this year that can be rightly so-called. This presupposition can be challenged. Indeed, the church fathers who developed the Easter computation challenge it, since they presuppose that the full moon of Nisan occurs, as Josephus wrote, when the sun is in the astrological sign of Aries, which begins with the astronomical Spring equinox.

 

[Commander Xenophon]

The title of the thread presupposes (as does your statement) that the lunar month that the Rabbinic Jewish calendar designates as 'Abib/Nisan is the only lunar month this year that can be rightly so-called. This presupposition can be challenged. Indeed, the church fathers who developed the Easter computation challenge it, since they presuppose that the full moon of Nisan occurs, as Josephus wrote, when the sun is in the astrological sign of Aries, which begins with the astronomical Spring equinox.

@seashale76 was referring, in a triumphalist way, to the Orthodox use of the Julian Paschalion, which unlike the Gregorian Computus, prevents Pascha from predating Jewish passover.

 

[Mockingbird0]

@seashale76 was referring, in a triumphalist way, to the Orthodox use of the Julian Paschalion, which unlike the Gregorian Computus, prevents Pascha from predating Jewish passover.

The Julian computus does this because it is wrong. I was re-stating this.

 

[Commander Xenophon]

The Julian computus does this because it is wrong. I was re-stating this.

On this point, I disagree; the error is slight and is the result of calendar drift. It is wrong now, but it was correct at the time our Lord was born. The Gregorian calendar is also inaccurate; the rotation of the Earth is slowing and so eventually the Julian Calendar will be more accurate.

But there is another error in the Gregorian computus: it can allow Pascha to coincide with the Rabinnical Jewish passover, which is forbidden by the Council of Nicea. The Pharisees, or proto-Rabinnical Jews during the Mishanic period following the Bar Kokhba revolt modified the Jewish calendar and in particular the process for determining when a new year begins, as the Karaite Jews, who kept the old system, can attest (mainly because with the Jews expelled from the Holy Land, watching the barley crop became impossible). As a result, the Rabinnical Jewish date of 14 Nissan does not accurately coincide with the birth of our Lord; it tends to predate it.

Some Christians disgraced themselves by arguing that the Jews changed the date to mislead us, but this is pure anti-Semitism; the recalculation of the Jewish calendar was one of a number of reforms the Pharisees were known for pushing for, and it became sort or a practical neccessity when the Romans exiled the Jews from Judea.

 

[BryanMaloney]

What distresses me is how mortal egotism continues to interfere in a good solution: Abandon both Julian and Gregorian computus methods. Use a new method based on actual astronomical observation. We no longer live in the Classical or Medieval world. We live in the modern world, where it is amazingly easy to do very quick astronomical observations of the sun and the moon and extend them forward by calculation to a "calender precision" level. Simply make the rule the first Sunday after the first full moon after the Vernal Equinox, to be recalculated as needed on an "X" year basis. It's NOT THAT HARD, anymore. We don't live in a world where it can take months for this calculation result to reach around the globe. It now takes less than SECONDS for these corrections. Calendars are planned and printed on an annual basis, and any error that might creep in will be less than a minute in length on that scale. We have the ability to do it. God has blessed us with astronomy, electronic communcation, PRINTING PRESSES, and a whole host of other wonderful expressions of the cleverness that He granted us.

Our own perversity and stiff-necked willfulness prevents us from coming together to use these gifts.

 

[Steve Petersen]

The title of the thread presupposes (as does your statement) that the lunar month that the Rabbinic Jewish calendar designates as 'Abib/Nisan is the only lunar month this year that can be rightly so-called. This presupposition can be challenged. Indeed, the church fathers who developed the Easter computation challenge it, since they presuppose that the full moon of Nisan occurs, as Josephus wrote, when the sun is in the astrological sign of Aries, which begins with the astronomical Spring equinox.

Precession of the equinoxes moves the first day of spring into a different astronomical house about every 2200 years.

 

[Mockingbird0]

Precession of the equinoxes moves the first day of spring into a different astronomical house about every 2200 years.

Did you not read what I wrote? The astrological sign of Aries is defined as beginning with the Spring equinox, utterly without regard for which constellation the equinox happens to be in. In Claudius Ptolemy's time, the equinox was already in the constellation Pisces (Almagest, Chapters 2 and 8).

 

[Commander Xenophon]

What distresses me is how mortal egotism continues to interfere in a good solution: Abandon both Julian and Gregorian computus methods. Use a new method based on actual astronomical observation. We no longer live in the Classical or Medieval world. We live in the modern world, where it is amazingly easy to do very quick astronomical observations of the sun and the moon and extend them forward by calculation to a "calender precision" level. Simply make the rule the first Sunday after the first full moon after the Vernal Equinox, to be recalculated as needed on an "X" year basis. It's NOT THAT HARD, anymore. We don't live in a world where it can take months for this calculation result to reach around the globe. It now takes less than SECONDS for these corrections. Calendars are planned and printed on an annual basis, and any error that might creep in will be less than a minute in length on that scale. We have the ability to do it. God has blessed us with astronomy, electronic communcation, PRINTING PRESSES, and a whole host of other wonderful expressions of the cleverness that He granted us.

Our own perversity and stiff-necked willfulness prevents us from coming together to use these gifts.

I agree, in part; the only people who really make an issue out of this are some Orthodox Old Calendarists.

I also, on another level, do not care; as I see it, the Julian Calendar and Paschaliom give us a consistent number of temporal "units" that have elapsed since the birth of Christ. This will become directly relevant some day when the Julian Calendar falls out of sync with the solar year; I believe we should just continue to use the technique ratified at the Council of Nicea, because they also upheld the doctrine of the deity of our Lord, and the leading Nicene father, St. Athanasius, gave us the Biblical calendar.

Precession of the equinoxes moves the first day of spring into a different astronomical house about every 2200 years.

Did you not read what I wrote? The astrological sign of Aries is defined as beginning with the Spring equinox, utterly without regard for which constellation the equinox happens to be in. In Claudius Ptolemy's time, the equinox was already in the constellation Pisces (Almagest, Chapters 2 and 8).

I very much wish that as we explore the dating of Easter, we could avoid referring to Hellenic Pagan deities or Chaldean astrological concepts. (If someone wants to rename Thursday, Friday and Saturday, I am down with that also )

 

[Mockingbird0]

On this point, I disagree; the error is slight and is the result of calendar drift.

The solar error of 13 days in 365 is some 3-and-a-half percent of a tropical year. But the lunar error of 4 days in 29 and a half is nearly 14 percent of a synodic lunar month. This is not "slight". That a 4-day waning gibbous moon is not a full moon can be seen with a single glance at the sky.

It is wrong now, but it was correct at the time our Lord was born.

At the time our Lord was born, the overall average tropical year was about 365.2425 days, and the Spring equinox tropical year was about 365.2423 days. Now the overall average tropical year is around 365.2422 days and the Spring equinox tropical year is around 365.2424 days. The Julian calendar has never been close. At the time our Lord was born, the mean synodic lunar month was around 29.530595 days. It is now around 29.530589 days. The Julian paschalion presupposes 29.530851 days. The Julian value has always been far above the correct value.

The Gregorian calendar is also inaccurate; the rotation of the Earth is slowing and so eventually the Julian Calendar will be more accurate.

Nope. The overall average tropical year in contemporary mean solar days is decreasing, not increasing. The length of the Spring equinox tropical year will increase for the next thousand years or so, becoming closer to the Gregorian year of 365.2425 days than it is now, but nowhere near the Julian year.

But there is another error in the Gregorian computus: it can allow Pascha to coincide with the Rabinnical Jewish passover, which is forbidden by the Council of Nicea.

Wrong. The present-day Rabbinic Jewish calendar did not exist when the bishops met at Nicea. The bishops cannot have said anything about it.

As a result, the Rabinnical Jewish date of 14 Nissan does not accurately coincide with the birth of our Lord; it tends to predate it.

What do you mean by this? Are you dating our Lord's birth to March 25?

The Rabbinic Jewish date of 14 Nisan is now on the average a little late, due to a slight solar drift in the Rabbinic calendar.

 

[jeager016]

Easter is a pagan holiday and I don't celebrate it in any form.
http://www.lasttrumpetministries.org/tracts/tract1.html

LOTS of info on the web for serious Christians who want to know.

 

[Jipsah]

Easter is a pagan holiday

So when we say "He is risen!" what is it we really mean?

 

[jeager016]

So when we say "He is risen!" what is it we really mean?

It means "He is risen". What did you think it meant????????
There was some kind of point in that reply????????
What does "risen" have to do with the Easter holiday replete with
Easter eggs, candy rabbits, & kids, and very little if anything to do
with Jesus' ascension?
I won't waste my time and electrons on a screen posting sources
to explain Easter's pagan roots.
If you are inquiring enough to be a member of this forum then
one would think you are intelligent enough to investigate for
yourself instead of accepting false church dogma.
Inquiring minds don'cha'know?
I suppose you still believe, " I did not have sex with that woman.........."

 

[BryanMaloney]

It means "He is risen". What did you think it meant????????
There was some kind of point in that reply????????
What does "risen" have to do with the Easter holiday replete with
Easter eggs, candy rabbits, & kids, and very little if anything to do
with Jesus' ascension?
I won't waste my time and electrons on a screen posting sources
to explain Easter's pagan roots.
If you are inquiring enough to be a member of this forum then
one would think you are intelligent enough to investigate for
yourself instead of accepting false church dogma.
Inquiring minds don'cha'know?
I suppose you still believe, " I did not have sex with that woman.........."

Prove that Easter celebrations MUST have the rabbits, candy, etc. in them. Sorry, but only those who are proud of their ignorance of Christian history say that Holy Pascha (called "Easter" in English, but NOT IN MOST OTHER LANGUAGES) is "pagan". The majority of Christians, worldwide, call it by a variation of "Passover" (Pascha is Greek for "Passover"). Likewise, the bunny, etc. stuff is not universal to Christian celebrations of Easter.

 

[SAAN]

Prove that Easter celebrations MUST have the rabbits, candy, etc. in them. Sorry, but only those who are proud of their ignorance of Christian history say that Holy Pascha (called "Easter" in English, but NOT IN MOST OTHER LANGUAGES) is "pagan". The majority of Christians, worldwide, call it by a variation of "Passover" (Pascha is Greek for "Passover"). Likewise, the bunny, etc. stuff is not universal to Christian celebrations of Easter.

Agreed, but in the end, it is still a substitute for Passover that God commanded people to keep. Jesus died on Passover and Rose on First Fruits. Easter is really just a man made holiday Christianity made up to differentiate themselves from the Jews, while there is no evil intentions behind Easter, we cant act like the pagan symbols of rabbits, eggs hunts and more arent a BIG part of many peoples Easter celebration too.
The fact that people come together to eat a honey roasted pig in honor of a Jewish Messiah that was a Hebrew, should throw up big red flags behind the origins of the day.

 

[jeager016]

Agreed, but in the end, it is still a substitute for Passover that God commanded people to keep. Jesus died on Passover and Rose on First Fruits. Easter is really just a man made holiday Christianity made up to differentiate themselves from the Jews, while there is no evil intentions behind Easter, we cant act like the pagan symbols of rabbits, eggs hunts and more arent a BIG part of many peoples Easter celebration too.
The fact that people come together to eat a honey roasted pig in honor of a Jewish Messiah that was a Hebrew, should throw up big red flags behind the origins of the day.

Curious? Who eats a honey roasted pig in honor of a Jewish Messiah?
How does eating pork "honor" a Jew?

 

[SAAN]

Curious? Who eats a honey roasted pig in honor of a Jewish Messiah?
How does eating pork "honor" a Jew?

Honey Baked Ham is a big item Easter Sunday, just about EVERY single Easter dinner I have been to in my life, has a ham in the middle of the table.

As for "How does eating pork "honor" a Jew?", that is a great questions as to how the tradition of a ham on Easter Sunday came about.

 

[Jipsah]

I won't waste my time and electrons on a screen posting sources to explain Easter's pagan roots.

Good. There's quote enough hogwash being posted on the subject as it is. If you believe that our Lord's glorious resurrection isn't worth celebrating, and is somehow "pagan", then join the unbelieving world in ignoring it.

Inquiring minds don'cha'know?

"Inquiring minds" who don't know enough history to qualify as utterly unschooled, but who are willing to believe any lunacy that sounds good and helps them think that they're the "real Christians" and not all those poor devils who proclaim "He is risen indeed!" on Easter. The folks who think that any feast or observance that centers on our Lord Christ is somehow "pagan" and to be ignored, while Old Testament feasts whose only purpose was to prepare us for the arrival of God Incarnate should still be observed as if He hadn't in fact already come! The same "inquiring minds" whose regard for paganism and pagans long dead is so great that they are more interested in not doing something or other that they think the pagans may have done ("The pagans sang, so we mustn't sing") than they are in honoring our Lord.

It's also a fact that many of those "inquiring minds" in these forums who've beaten their tubs the loudest against celebrating Easter and Advent/Christmas have ultimately turned out not to believe that our Lord is God HOImself come in the flesh at all, but actually some sort of avatar or angel or "great teacher" or ssome such, and therefore in fact unworthy of worship. They do "do" Christmas or Easter because they don't see the events being celebrated as any big deal. They just don't think that Christ was all that, and thus there's no reason to create feasts to celebrate what the Church as a whole regards as the greatest events in the history of the universe.

The whole thing is insanity, IMO. If Christ is Who we say He is, then we should be celebrating His coming, and His resurrection, every minute of every day rather than forbidding any such celebration at all!

 

[Jipsah]

The fact that people come together to eat a honey roasted pig in honor of a Jewish Messiah that was a Hebrew, should throw up big red flags behind the origins of the day.

He isn't simply the Jewish Messiah, though, is He? He is God Himself, come in the flesh. The same God Who said "Rise, Peter; kill, and eat...What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common. " Somehow y'all seem to miss that point, rather pointedly.

 

[jeager016]

http://www.ancient-origins.net/myths-legends/ancient-pagan-origins-easter-001571
Where did all of the strange customs come from, which have nothing to do with the resurrection of our Saviour?
^^
http://www.ancient-origins.net/myths-legends/ancient-pagan-origins-easter-001571
I could research, copy and post ad nauseam but I'd rather the
reader do such for themselves.

Nothing changes a mind cloaked in tradition no matter the origins.

 

[Albion]

Easter is a pagan holiday and I don't celebrate it in any form.
http://www.lasttrumpetministries.org/tracts/tract1.html.

So that we're all clear about this...

You don't celebrate ANY of the usual Christian holidays, right? Not Easter, but also not Christmas, nor any of the others.