How does the unregenerate person obey?

[EmSw]

YHWH knew before HE CREATED THE UNIVERSE and EVERYTHING IN IT
everything that was going to take place, right through TODAY and everything we've ever done and ever will do.

Did Y'SHUA tell anyone to murder ? Did YHWH tell anyone to murder ?

What does 1st John say, in line with all the Scripture ? (about those who say they are in the LIGHT, but walk in darkness and the LIGHT is not in them/ paraphrased and concise)

In Revelation, etc, who is saved ? The children of disobedience? (what is written about them?) or the slaves of RIGHTEOUSNESS ?

To be honest, I have no idea what you are trying to say. Are you for obedience or against it?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

To be honest, I have no idea what you are trying to say. Are you for obedience or against it?

All the References I gave you proclaim from SCRIPTURE that OBEDIENCE is GOOD and RIGHT.
There are over 20 other References in SCRIPTURE that are in HARMONY with this, and NONE that contradict it. (see BIBLEGATEWAY . COM/ search any translation easily to see all the occurences and the context in SCRIPTURE)

 

[St_Worm2]

Hello David. How can anyone be regenerated if he does not accept the things of God? If regeneration is foolishness to him, how will any unbeliever accept it? If you say God forces His regeneration on man, you might have a point.

Natural man can obey the things of God. If it were not possible, then we might as well lock up every unbeliever, for they cannot understand and accept that God says do not murder. Let me ask you, was 'do not murder' foolishness to you while unsaved? Did you murder and not not accept that murder was against God's law? What unbeliever, but the vilest, cannot understand God's law of 'do not murder'?

Besides, even those who are new creatures can't understand and accept God's law of not sinning. Some see nothing wrong with sinning. Some can't understand and accept God's word about keeping the commandments to inherit eternal life. So, it's not the natural man verses the spiritual man as far as accepting the things of God. It's those who freely choose to obey the things of God.

Hi Em, we've all made our choices, and what we've all chosen to do (from the days of our first parents) is to march in lockstep away from God, and then to rush headlong toward our own eternal destruction (i.e. Romans 3:10-12; Romans 3:23).

Regeneration = being made alive "spiritually" = being "born again". It's God causing hearts of stone to become hearts of flesh (Ezekiel 36:26). We go from being dead spiritually to being alive spiritually. This is something that God alone must do because the dead can "do", well, nothing! He causes the Elect (who were just as dead in their trespasses and sins as everybody else .. Ephesians 2:1-3), to be made "alive" in His Son (Ephesians 2:4-5) so we can and will choose to believe (John 6:37-40; John 6:44/John 6:65).

That's why saving faith is called a "gift" from God later on in that chapter (Ephesians 2:8-9) and why choosing to believe is not considered to be meritorious. Regeneration makes believing "possible" (and inevitable) because by it, we are able to know and understand God, and we can finally "see" His Kingdom.

Regeneration precedes faith.

BTW, it's the elect of God who have their free will interfered with (in a sense), but the reprobate is allowed to continue on his/her way, unchecked by God, their free will left intact. In fact, without God's intervention in the lives of His Elect, the eternal destination of both saint and reprobate would be the same. God promised His Son a bride however, so all of us cannot be destroyed, a remnant needs to be saved.

You might want to take a little closer look at what the Lord said to the lawyer and the rich, young ruler about inheriting eternal life. The Law wasn't given to show us how to become righteous in God's sight, it was given to show us that we can't be.

The Law has several purposes in the life of a believer, but its main purpose in the life of an unbeliever is to show them how lost and hopeless they truly are, and to drive them to Christ (i.e. Galatians 3:24-25).

Obedience to the Law can't "save" anyone, because no one can keep the Law.

You might also want to take a close look at everything that's said in John 5:24. There the Lord tells us that we are "saved" from the moment we first believe, that we literally pass from death to life in that moment, not after years of faithfully obeying the Law. Obedience is the RESULT, the "fruit" of our salvation in Him, not the cause (i.e. Ephesians 2:10)! Our salvation is all about Him .. not us!!

Here's a question for you, have you EVER, "loved the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind, and loved your neighbors as you love yourself"? Even once As far as I know, only One among us has ever done that, but if you think you're the exception to the rule and you actually believe that you pulled that off once or twice, St. James has a word or two, just for you

10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point, he has become guilty of all.
11 For He who said, “DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY,” also said, “DO NOT COMMIT MURDER.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. ~James 2

If you want to be judged "righteous" by the Law, then you cannot break the Law .. EVER

Those are a few things to consider. Hopefully we'll be able to talk more a little later (Dv).

Yours in Christ,
David

"For if a law had been given which was able to
impart life, then righteousness would
indeed have been based on law"
Galatians 3:21​

 

[EmSw]

All the References I gave you proclaim from SCRIPTURE that OBEDIENCE is GOOD and RIGHT.
There are over 20 other References in SCRIPTURE that are in HARMONY with this, and NONE that contradict it. (see BIBLEGATEWAY . COM/ search any translation easily to see all the occurences and the context in SCRIPTURE)

What's the beef? I completely agree that obedience is necessary for salvation.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

What's the beef? I completely agree that obedience is necessary for salvation.

We are in agreement. 100% pure 'kosher' beef haha - we enjoy YHWH'S WORD.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

we've all made our choices, and what we've all chosen to do (from the days of our first parents) is to march in lockstep away from God, and then to rush headlong toward our own eternal destruction

That struck me as so true in the world (including worldly churches) ...
I would recommend what Y'SHUA said for anyone (with or without their parents) who is marching in lockstep away from God -
turn to YHWH, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand. (it is almost too late; and may be already too late for some; the time is so short, and the world is being summed up).

 

[Geralt]

Like what God has commanded them to obey. The religious trap.

We read these words from Acts 5:32
And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.

How does an unsaved person obey without the Holy Spirit?

 

[Job8]

Obey the Gospel ? Good luck with that.

Evidently you have never seen this term. So kindly look up Strong's Exhaustive Concordance under "obey" and "gospel".

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Evidently you have never seen this term. So kindly look up Strong's Exhaustive Concordance under "obey" and "gospel".

Good Point.
I used to do/read/search for hundreds of WORD studies eagerly and excited to find out how rich the WORD is in every language and in every sentence.
I did a WORD search the last couple days on "OBEDIENCE" via BIBLEGATEWAY dot com
and it was SO REVEALING and SIMPLE. (IN ENGLISH)
It makes it even more obvious how many have never had the time to read the BIBLE, or they wouldn't argue against it so much, if they are actually seeking the TRUTH.

 

[samir]

We read these words from Acts 5:32
And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.

How does an unsaved person obey without the Holy Spirit?

By the grace of God. Grace allows the unsaved person to believe the gospel and repent of his sins so that he may receive the Holy Spirit and be saved.

 

[EmSw]

By the grace of God. Grace allows the unsaved person to believe the gospel and repent of his sins so that he may receive the Holy Spirit and be saved.

This is one of the most reasonable answers given.

 

[bling]

So God doesn't love the unbeliever? Does God withhold His love to the unbeliever? If so, then John 3:16 is pretty meaningless.

I did not say: "God does not Love the unbeliever", but the unbeliever does not have Godly type Love. God the Father would Love and show His Love for the prodigal son if the son returns or not.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Love comes before obedience and the nonbeliever does not have this Godly type Love?

Good.
YHWH loves us while we were yet sinners and sons of disobedience like the rest of the world is.

Our love for HIM or Y'SHUA is not seen until we OBEY HIM. Some people obey(or 'look' like they obey) out of fear though, or self-serving or other reasons, but YHWH knows everything so no one can trick HIM ever. But everyone who loves YHWH obeys HIM, exactly as Y'SHUA says several times in HIS WORD.

 

[EmSw]

I did not say: "God does not Love the unbeliever", but the unbeliever does not have Godly type Love. God the Father would Love and show His Love for the prodigal son if the son returns or not.

Why does the unbeliever not have the love of God? Is God a respecter of persons? Does He only love those who obey Him?

Romans 16
25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began
26 but now made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith—
27 to God, alone wise, be glory through Jesus Christ forever. Amen.

Romans 15
16 that I might be a minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering of the Gentiles might be acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.
17 Therefore I have reason to glory in Christ Jesus in the things which pertain to God.
18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ has not accomplished through me, in word and deed, to make the Gentiles obedient...

Paul would be wasting his time in 'making the Gentiles obedient', if the Gentiles didn't have the love of God.

 

[bling]

Good.
YHWH loves us while we were yet sinners and sons of disobedience like the rest of the world is.

Our love for HIM or Y'SHUA is not seen until we OBEY HIM. Some people obey(or 'look' like they obey) out of fear though, or self-serving or other reasons, but YHWH knows everything so no one can trick HIM ever. But everyone who loves YHWH obeys HIM, exactly as Y'SHUA says several times in HIS WORD.

Yes we have to "Love" before we can truly obey. The Love is seen in the true obedience with the right motivation.

The nonbeliever does not have Godly type Love so how does he obey or can he truly obey (1 Cor. 13: 1-3)

 

[bling]

Why does the unbeliever not have the love of God? Is God a respecter of persons? Does He only love those who obey Him?

Romans 16
25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began
26 but now made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith—
27 to God, alone wise, be glory through Jesus Christ forever. Amen.

Romans 15
16 that I might be a minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering of the Gentiles might be acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.
17 Therefore I have reason to glory in Christ Jesus in the things which pertain to God.
18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ has not accomplished through me, in word and deed, to make the Gentiles obedient...

Paul would be wasting his time in 'making the Gentiles obedient', if the Gentiles didn't have the love of God.

By definition the person refusing to believe is hell bound, so why would that person “love” the being sending him to hell?

God is loving everyone with a Godly Love, but few accept that Love as pure charity and for them to have that Love they must first accept God’s Love as charity.

 

[EmSw]

By definition the person refusing to believe is hell bound, so why would that person “love” the being sending him to hell?

God is loving everyone with a Godly Love, but few accept that Love as pure charity and for them to have that Love they must first accept God’s Love as charity.

You said the unbeliever does not have the love of God. Now you are saying the person has to accept that love. Not accepting that love does not mean they do not have the love of God.

I think you are trying to say they must reciprocate that love back to God.

 

[bling]

You said the unbeliever does not have the love of God. Now you are saying the person has to accept that love. Not accepting that love does not mean they do not have the love of God.

I think you are trying to say they must reciprocate that love back to God.

I am not talking about reciprocation, but the acceptance of the free unconditional gift of God’s Love for them as it is given, as pure charity. God is Loving everyone, but if your accepting God’s charity as some kind of obligation on God’s part or because you feel you deserve His Love or will pay back His Love then the transaction of Love is not completed.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

By definition the person refusing to believe is hell bound, so why would that person “love” the being sending him to hell?

Why? The ones you are describing refusing to believe:
They are disobedient, not loyal, not faithful, not true, unholy, unrighteous, sinful without repentance,
yet
they think (as it is written) that God would let them in heaven,
and they MIGHT or MAY (emotionally not Scripturally) love God ;
it is just feelings with no substance; beliefs with no faith in God.

 

[watchman 2]

Evidently you have never seen this term. So kindly look up Strong's Exhaustive Concordance under "obey" and "gospel".

Wouldn't waste my time on it , the Holy Spirit obeys for me as the result of a continual surrendering of my life and will to God. I know you don't agree and is why i wished you good luck in "your" obedience.

I guess it's possible for someone to have a perfect life of obedience to God and His laws like Christ did , so again , good luck with that .