How does one pray with icons?

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I don't care much for those icons. I'm more of a Byzantine kind of guy. I don't care much for the Renaissance and late Medievel stuff myself. I don't like the icons in the local Greek parish ONE BIT! they're too Western-looking, realism, people looking fat and bloated and washed-out. I prefer the idealism of Byzantine iconography. This is my type of icons:



patrick1.jpg
 
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MilesVitae

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Gurney (or any of y'all),
You mention the icons in your local Greek parish - do the Greeks not use Byzantine style icons, or do you just mean the icons in that particular church are too western? That may sound like a completely silly question :blush: But I don't know very much about eastern icons. I read somewhere a little bit about the difference between Greek and Russian icons, but that's about it - is Greek iconography the same as Byzantine, and what other styles or traditions are there?
 
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The first several I picked the off of a google search as examples of the style I wanted to point out, but I wouldn't select those particular images as the best I've seen. I do like the last two the best. There is another Madonna by the same artist (Duccio) you may care to see if you like that one (though, personally, I think I prefer the first one... although, I don't know, I can keep going back and forth):
2crevole.jpg

What "details" are you concerned about? I'm guessing one is the depiction of (presumably) God the Father?

I'm coming to understand this more myself, through this discussion and considering some of these images.

I'm afraid I really don't like the way the Child is depicted in this one at all. Even though in some sense it appears he is more mature in the face.

From a standpoint of what is allowed - I'm barely learning this stuff myself. Someone else can I'm sure give a much more indepth critique. But I do think some of the colors are a problem, for example - especially in the clothing of the Theotokos. The hand positions in some cases just bother me - they "feel wrong" when I look at them. I don't know if that is supposed to be a depiction of the Trinity in one? The expressions on MANY of the faces bother me ... I'm used to icons with serene eyes that seem to really see you. It may very well be a cultural thing (I suspect that is at least part of it) ... But these faces and especially eyes seem to hold too much emotion - and frankly it doesn't feel like good emotion in some cases. I'm not trying to criticize ... It's just that after looking at a certain kind of icons, these disturb me on their differences.

I do still like western art for the sake of looking at it, and very often it is intended to evoke as well as demonstrate certain emotions. I just don't find that with icons, and this disquiets my soul by comparison when I look at these carefully. I also notice the haloes aren't as they should be.

Offhand that's my opinion.

The one I like the face of the Theotokos (last one in your first set) because the expression reminds me of a paper icon I have. The eyes are very similar, and I do like that aspect.

No insult is intended to any of the works. Compared to what I am used to seeing, that is my impression though.
 
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Nik0s

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Gurney (or any of y'all),
You mention the icons in your local Greek parish - do the Greeks not use Byzantine style icons, or do you just mean the icons in that particular church are too western? That may sound like a completely silly question :blush: But I don't know very much about eastern icons. I read somewhere a little bit about the difference between Greek and Russian icons, but that's about it - is Greek iconography the same as Byzantine, and what other styles or traditions are there?
Byzantine and Greek style are one and the same. The reason some older churches here in the US have "Western" looking iconography is because during the first waves of Greek immigration there simply weren't any Orthodox iconographers around! Some Russian churches have Western looking iconography as well due to being influenced by France and other enlightenment era countries.
 
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MilesVitae

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I'm afraid I really don't like the way the Child is depicted in this one at all. Even though in some sense it appears he is more mature in the face.

From a standpoint of what is allowed - I'm barely learning this stuff myself. Someone else can I'm sure give a much more indepth critique. But I do think some of the colors are a problem, for example - especially in the clothing of the Theotokos. The hand positions in some cases just bother me - they "feel wrong" when I look at them. I don't know if that is supposed to be a depiction of the Trinity in one? The expressions on MANY of the faces bother me ... I'm used to icons with serene eyes that seem to really see you. It may very well be a cultural thing (I suspect that is at least part of it) ... But these faces and especially eyes seem to hold too much emotion - and frankly it doesn't feel like good emotion in some cases. I'm not trying to criticize ... It's just that after looking at a certain kind of icons, these disturb me on their differences.

I do still like western art for the sake of looking at it, and very often it is intended to evoke as well as demonstrate certain emotions. I just don't find that with icons, and this disquiets my soul by comparison when I look at these carefully. I also notice the haloes aren't as they should be.

Offhand that's my opinion.

The one I like the face of the Theotokos (last one in your first set) because the expression reminds me of a paper icon I have. The eyes are very similar, and I do like that aspect.

No insult is intended to any of the works. Compared to what I am used to seeing, that is my impression though.

Fair enough.
I was wondering if anyone has examples (which they can link to) of icons they particularly like. Although I do like many icons, I have to say that some of them have a certain degree and style of non-realism (for lack of better words) which I actually find distracting and unpleasant - I'd be very interested to see what other people like.
 
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MilesVitae

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Byzantine and Greek style are one and the same. The reason some older churches here in the US have "Western" looking iconography is because during the first waves of Greek immigration there simply weren't any Orthodox iconographers around! Some Russian churches have Western looking iconography as well due to being influenced by France and other enlightenment era countries.

Okay, interesting. Do you have any examples of the more westernized style vs. the more traditional style?
 
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ArmyMatt

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hands down my favorite. the Rublev icon of the Holy Trinity, when God appeared to Abraham in the form of three angels. note the angel in the middle is clothed like Christ and if you trace the shape of the other two angels, their outline forms a chalice shape that Christ is inside. I love that Eucharistic imagery.

http://orthodoxwiki.org/images/5/54/Rublev_Trinity.jpg
 
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MilesVitae

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hands down my favorite. the Rublev icon of the Holy Trinity, when God appeared to Abraham in the form of three angels. note the angel in the middle is clothed like Christ and if you trace the shape of the other two angels, their outline forms a chalice shape that Christ is inside. I love that Eucharistic imagery.

http://orthodoxwiki.org/images/5/54/Rublev_Trinity.jpg

Oh, I've seen that one before, but I never noticed the chalice-shape - groovy. Though, in what way is the angel clothed like Christ? Also, just as a matter of curiosity, are there rules about portraying the Trinity? I think was told that portraying the Father in human form is, at the least, kind of a no-no. Besides this one, of course, are there other traditional or acceptable ways or portraying the Father or the Trinity as a whole?
 
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ArmyMatt

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Oh, I've seen that one before, but I never noticed the chalice-shape - groovy. Though, in what way is the angel clothed like Christ? Also, just as a matter of curiosity, are there rules about portraying the Trinity? I think was told that portraying the Father in human form is, at the least, kind of a no-no. Besides this one, of course, are there other traditional or acceptable ways or portraying the Father or the Trinity as a whole?

the blue on red in the center. and this is the traditional way of depicting the Trinity, although you do sometimes see the Father as the Ancient of Days, the Son as the Incarnate Christ, and the Spirit as a Dove. the best bet that doesn't get folks fuming is the Trinity as Three Angels that appeared to Abraham or as in the Theophany Icon.
 
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MilesVitae

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Hmmm, for me personally, there's a quality to the style in which Mary's face is painted in the second which I find somewhat unpleasant and distracting, though I appreciate her eyes and the serenity of her face - over all I do like these. Who are the three being depicted in the third? The text is all Greek to me.

Are these representative of a particular style of icons?

I can't find the images of the exact icons I wanted to share, but here are some I do like

christ-enthroned-orthodox-witness.jpg


Compassionate%20oneFlyer2.jpg


the-three-holy-hierarchs-saints-basil-the-great-john-chrysostom-gregory-the-theologian.jpg
 
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Hmmm, for me personally, there's a quality to the style in which Mary's face is painted in the second which I find somewhat unpleasant and distracting, though I appreciate her eyes and the serenity of her face - over all I do like these. Who are the three being depicted in the third? The text is all Greek to me.

Are these representative of a particular style of icons?

Those are the three hierarchs - St. Basil the Great, St. John Chrysostom, and St. Gregory the Theologian. They were very influential in the early Church.

Someone else may correct me, but I think it's proper to say these are all Byzantine style.

I almost included one of St. Seraphim of Sarov, but most of his that I like are not Byzantine and I didn't want to confuse matters. :)

As far as distracting elements and unpleasant expressions and so on, sometimes I think it has more to do with the artist's style. When I first chose a few icons, I couldn't afford to buy any so I searched through MANY images and narrowed it down bit by bit until I found a few that were free of any kind of distraction, to me ( and eventually had a print made of a few). I wish I could put up pictures of those exact ones, but I couldn't find them. I actually changed my post quickly because the first one I put up of Christ had a very distracting expression when the forum enlarged the picture and I could see it better. So I found a new one and edited. :)

That may all come down to personal preference. I'm not very experienced in this at all. I have used my little paper reproductions, and I now have a tiny icon of Christ in my car that I really like, and some other small icons given to me are in the altar at Church right now. :)

And since my baptism I have a special affinity for the icon of Christ in the iconostasis, that was right beside me during my baptism.

I will say this though. I may have been overly concerned with the exact expression of the icons I chose to have printed. I don't mean to sound all weirdly spooky, but simply to say that the sense I get from an icon, as I become familiar with it, and pray, over time, can seem to change a bit. Sometimes the eyes seem to be soft and full of love, and other times I notice different aspects of the expression.

It may be purposeful? I am reminded that I was told that one who reads the Scriptures in Church should ideally read without a lot of emotion, and allow the hearer to get what is appropriate for themselves from the reading. (I've also heard this is advisable for the sake of monks or others who may be attending a service but are still deeply involved in whatever spiritual thoughts they may have reached through prayer beforehand, and so not to disturb them.)

Just some thoughts. I am by no means expert, or even very experienced. :)
 
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MilesVitae

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Those are the three hierarchs - St. Basil the Great, St. John Chrysostom, and St. Gregory the Theologian. They were very influential in the early Church.

Ahhh, okay - I was guessing Peter, James, and John, but I figured that wasn't it when I didn't see keys in any of their hands....though, now that I think of it, maybe that's not traditional for the Orthodox and was me just thinking like a Catholic :D

Someone else may correct me, but I think it's proper to say these are all Byzantine style.

I almost included one of St. Seraphim of Sarov, but most of his that I like are not Byzantine and I didn't want to confuse matters. :)

As far as distracting elements and unpleasant expressions and so on, sometimes I think it has more to do with the artist's style. When I first chose a few icons, I couldn't afford to buy any so I searched through MANY images and narrowed it down bit by bit until I found a few that were free of any kind of distraction, to me ( and eventually had a print made of a few). I wish I could put up pictures of those exact ones, but I couldn't find them. I actually changed my post quickly because the first one I put up of Christ had a very distracting expression when the forum enlarged the picture and I could see it better. So I found a new one and edited. :)

That may all come down to personal preference. I'm not very experienced in this at all. I have used my little paper reproductions, and I now have a tiny icon of Christ in my car that I really like, and some other small icons given to me are in the altar at Church right now. :)

I'm sure much of it comes down to personal preference, as you say, and I know there is a long tradition behind these things that I'm not very familiar with at all, so when I say I find an icon unpleasant or distracting, I'm not trying to criticize it as necessarily bad - just saying what it does for me....

And since my baptism I have a special affinity for the icon of Christ in the iconostasis, that was right beside me during my baptism.

I will say this though. I may have been overly concerned with the exact expression of the icons I chose to have printed. I don't mean to sound all weirdly spooky, but simply to say that the sense I get from an icon, as I become familiar with it, and pray, over time, can seem to change a bit. Sometimes the eyes seem to be soft and full of love, and other times I notice different aspects of the expression.

Ha I have heard that before - I might freak out if I actually thought I was seeing this phenomenon....so, thanks for spooking me :p

It may be purposeful? I am reminded that I was told that one who reads the Scriptures in Church should ideally read without a lot of emotion, and allow the hearer to get what is appropriate for themselves from the reading. (I've also heard this is advisable for the sake of monks or others who may be attending a service but are still deeply involved in whatever spiritual thoughts they may have reached through prayer beforehand, and so not to disturb them.)

Just some thoughts. I am by no means expert, or even very experienced. :)

Thanks :) I'm hardly experienced as far as icons or Eastern spirituality goes, either- I'm not even Orthodox!
 
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MilesVitae

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O.O ...when you said "western looking" I was picturing something still relatively identifiable as an Eastern icon....

Here's an icon of the Theophany from The cathedral of Christ the savior in Moscow
vasili-nesterenko-baptism-of-our-lord-christ-the-saviour-cathedral-moscow-2000-e1278016699822.jpg



And here's a byzantine style.

icon_theophany.jpg
 
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I can't find the images of the exact icons I wanted to share, but here are some I do like

christ-enthroned-orthodox-witness.jpg


Compassionate%20oneFlyer2.jpg


the-three-holy-hierarchs-saints-basil-the-great-john-chrysostom-gregory-the-theologian.jpg
Those are beautiful - many thanks for sharing on those in specific :) I was actually going to get the middle one (of the Theotokos and Christ ) for my prayer room when I was looking for icons, but I ended up getting another icon.
 
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