How does one pray with icons?

MilesVitae

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I'm sure this has been addressed before (and I see to some extent it was touched on in a couple recent threads), but how exactly DOES one *pray* with icons? Is there a "method," or some such thing?
And, as a secondary question, does one pray with them differently from the way one would pray with western sacred art (I've been told there are important differences between western sacred art and icons, but I'm not primarily interested here in the differences except in so far as they are relevant to *how one prays*)?

Thanks!
 

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I'm sure this has been addressed before (and I see to some extent it was touched on in a couple recent threads), but how exactly DOES one *pray* with icons? Is there a "method," or some such thing?
And, as a secondary question, does one pray with them differently from the way one would pray with western sacred art (I've been told there are important differences between western sacred art and icons, but I'm not primarily interested here in the differences except in so far as they are relevant to *how one prays*)?

Thanks!

For myself and what I have experienced in Orthodoxy, it is simply that the icons are present with us. Prayer itself is the same whether there are icons present or not.
 
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ArmyMatt

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I'm sure this has been addressed before (and I see to some extent it was touched on in a couple recent threads), but how exactly DOES one *pray* with icons? Is there a "method," or some such thing?

have them present in a prayer corner and pray your rule. keep the eyes open and on them, but don't start letting your mind wander when you do.

And, as a secondary question, does one pray with them differently from the way one would pray with western sacred art (I've been told there are important differences between western sacred art and icons, but I'm not primarily interested here in the differences except in so far as they are relevant to *how one prays*)?

I don't know if there is a different method, but I can say from personal experience that it is easier to pray with icons (even Western style iconography). Christ on a Wall Cross Icon where His eyes are closed is much easier to pray with than an image of Him writhing in pain and all bloody.

that being said, there is a place for Western Art, just not for Liturgical Prayer
 
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MilesVitae

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have them present in a prayer corner and pray your rule. keep the eyes open and on them, but don't start letting your mind wander when you do.

I don't know if there is a different method, but I can say from personal experience that it is easier to pray with icons (even Western style iconography). Christ on a Wall Cross Icon where His eyes are closed is much easier to pray with than an image of Him writhing in pain and all bloody.

that being said, there is a place for Western Art, just not for Liturgical Prayer

Hmmm. From what you're describing, it seems to me that western sacred art could be used in prayer in much the same way that icons are. That being said, I can understand why icons might be seen as *superior* to western sacred art, generally speaking that is. But, if icons are better suited to prayer than much sacred art, does that make sacred art unsuitable for personal, private prayer (of the sort with icons) if a person finds it benefits them?
 
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ArmyMatt

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But, if icons are better suited to prayer than much sacred art, does that make sacred art unsuitable for personal, private prayer (of the sort with icons) if a person finds it benefits them?
I think that depends on what is depicted. I know many Eastern Orthodox who in their prayer corners have Western images. Da Vinci's Last Supper is a common one I have seen in many prayer corners (even monastic cells), and for me personally, Michelangelo's Pieta is great to contemplate the sorrow of Christ's death. those are very different than some Altar Screens I have seen where the Last Judgment is depicted where sinners are writhing in agony, or Crucifixions where Christ is bloody and marred and in immense pain.

and good to see you again Miles. stick around my man
 
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Joseph Hazen

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The difference is often in imagination and direction of one's mind. Western sacred art often has elaborate additions, backgrounds, or creative interpretations of what or who is depicted. Orthodox are discouraged from, perhaps to the point of forbidden to, let their mind 'imagine what it was like to be there' or 'insert themselves into the story.' Much Western art, on the other hand, encourages such imaginations.

Then secondly the realism of Western art focuses one's mind on the present world, whereas the 2D images and abstract qualities of traditional iconography are focused on divinized bodies and Resurrected, eternal situations. This is not always the case - Iconography has been influenced in some places by Western art, but it is a standard of historical iconography.
 
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Well, the main difference is that Western art is just that, art. It is not meant to be prayed to, instead, Catholic Churches have statues. You don't pray to the statues either, you pray to what is represented there. In the Orthodox Church, we have the most beautiful way to adress to an icon: An icon is a window to Heaven. When you enter an Orthodox Church firstly you have to go and kiss the Theotokos icon and the Christ's icon to show respect, love, worship, obedience and faith. You don't pray, worship or venerate the wood which the icon was made of, neither the colours, you pray to the one it is represented there. An icon is sacred, and for an icon to get on shops or so firstly they have to be blessed by a priest. There are three types of icons: the Jesus Christ icon, the Theotokos icon and an icon representing a saint.

I hope I solved your doubts :D
 
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~Anastasia~

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Welcome to TAW, and to CF! :)


Well, the main difference is that Western art is just that, art. It is not meant to be prayed to, instead, Catholic Churches have statues. You don't pray to the statues either, you pray to what is represented there. In the Orthodox Church, we have the most beautiful way to adress to an icon: An icon is a window to Heaven. When you enter an Orthodox Church firstly you have to go and kiss the Theotokos icon and the Christ's icon to show respect, love, worship, obedience and faith. You don't pray, worship or venerate the wood which the icon was made of, neither the colours, you pray to the one it is represented there. An icon is sacred, and for an icon to get on shops or so firstly they have to be blessed by a priest. There are three types of icons: the Jesus Christ icon, the Theotokos icon and an icon representing a saint.

I hope I solved your doubts :D
 
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MilesVitae

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I think that depends on what is depicted. I know many Eastern Orthodox who in their prayer corners have Western images. Da Vinci's Last Supper is a common one I have seen in many prayer corners (even monastic cells), and for me personally, Michelangelo's Pieta is great to contemplate the sorrow of Christ's death. those are very different than some Altar Screens I have seen where the Last Judgment is depicted where sinners are writhing in agony, or Crucifixions where Christ is bloody and marred and in immense pain.

So, when you contemplate with Michelangelo's Pieta, is it different than what you would normally do before an icon? Also, why could you not also contemplate God's judgment and justice (as well as mercy) with an image of the last Judgment?

and good to see you again Miles. stick around my man

Thanks! I've been around, just lurking.
 
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MilesVitae

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The difference is often in imagination and direction of one's mind. Western sacred art often has elaborate additions, backgrounds, or creative interpretations of what or who is depicted. Orthodox are discouraged from, perhaps to the point of forbidden to, let their mind 'imagine what it was like to be there' or 'insert themselves into the story.' Much Western art, on the other hand, encourages such imaginations.

True. Is this a reason why icons are good and western art is, at the very least, not so good... or only reasons why icons serve a purpose in prayer which western art tends not to? Isn't there benefit in beholding depictions of the events of Christ's life and thinking on it, even if what might be called prayer properly or it's in its best form is best done with something more along the lines of icons?
Furthermore, why then depict events which have already happened?

Then secondly the realism of Western art focuses one's mind on the present world, whereas the 2D images and abstract qualities of traditional iconography are focused on divinized bodies and Resurrected, eternal situations. This is not always the case - Iconography has been influenced in some places by Western art, but it is a standard of historical iconography.

Hmmm - true....but, then (echoing what I asked above), why does one pray before icons which depict events that happened in the present world (like the crucifixion)?
 
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MilesVitae

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Well, the main difference is that Western art is just that, art. It is not meant to be prayed to, instead, Catholic Churches have statues. You don't pray to the statues either, you pray to what is represented there.

Thanks for the reply.

I suppose that depends on what you mean by "pray to" a statue or painting. Also, while statues, I think, tend to be treated more as representing the one they depict than are paintings depicting a scene, there are certainly paintings which are treated in a similar way (I am thinking right now, for me personally, particularly of http://www.ignitumtoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Sacred-Heart-Sic-Deus-Dilexit-Mundum.jpg which hangs in my room). But, I'm confused....are you saying that Orthodox do PRAY TO the icons themselves or not? I don't understand if you're comparing or contrasting icons and western art. And,

In the Orthodox Church, we have the most beautiful way to adress to an icon: An icon is a window to Heaven. When you enter an Orthodox Church firstly you have to go and kiss the Theotokos icon and the Christ's icon to show respect, love, worship, obedience and faith. You don't pray, worship or venerate the wood which the icon was made of, neither the colours, you pray to the one it is represented there. An icon is sacred, and for an icon to get on shops or so firstly they have to be blessed by a priest. There are three types of icons: the Jesus Christ icon, the Theotokos icon and an icon representing a saint.

Okay. See, this is pretty much how I think of using a lot of western sacred art - like crucifixes, statues, paintings of Christ - although not necessarily so much those dramatically depicting scenes, like Caravaggio's calling of Matthew or something. So, I suppose there's a distinction to be made even in western art between various types of depictions.... In any case, it really doesn't sound like there's much difference to me in the "method" of praying with them, except that the Orthodox are more discouraged from imaginings.
 
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ArmyMatt

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So, when you contemplate with Michelangelo's Pieta, is it different than what you would normally do before an icon?

somewhat. there is more emotion in the Pieta, you can see the sorrow in Mary. icons are normally emotionless to take you past emotion into eternity.
Also, why could you not also contemplate God's judgment and justice (as well as mercy) with an image of the last Judgment?

oh you can, I just think it is more difficult with Western imagery because the dynamic depictions and the emotion that is in there. when we truly pray, we need an inner stillness that can be more easily hindered by such imagery.

and there are places for that and it can be done, just not in Church from what I have seen and read. if you can, glory to God.

Thanks! I've been around, just lurking.

niceness.
 
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~Anastasia~

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Just as an aside ...

I recently visited the Church in Malbis, AL. It's in a lot of generic travel brochures. (Unfortunately I can't take pics inside to demonstrate what I'm about to try to say.)

It has the reputation of having had amazing mosaic icons, but some were damaged in a hurricane. I read that they had an iconographer restore the building.

When I got there, the inside has been painted with huge western-style art, scenes of Christ's life. It looks very Catholic to me. Very 3-dimensional, realistic, and skillfully done.

I was sitting near the front, and there is a scene of (iirc) Christ feeding the 5000. Within it is a man, a soldier I think, sitting near the front of the painting, much larger than life. He's muscular, sitting on the ground, and his garment rides up on his leg, and the muscles of his leg are depicted in detail. It struck me that that painting leads the eye and places images in one's mind that one does not want to be contemplating during a Church service. It is in VERY stark contrast to the iconic stained glass window in our Church, which depicts Christ nearly unclothed on the Cross, and yet does not at all lead the mind in noticing anything remotely like the painting.

That's a pretty graphic point (maybe - it was in person at least) but it gives me a tremendous contrast possible between western art and iconography.

I always loved Western religious art, and have collected a few very expensive books over the years featuring western art. I never had a real appreciation for iconography, by comparison, and tended to ignore photos of icons when they shared the same books.

But having learned such great differences, and I did used to pray as a child with a picture of Jesus - well, others here have explained the differences I have learned much better than I can.

It's not that western art is all bad, but it doesn't have the focus and rules of iconography, that I have found are very much there for a reason. :)


This is the picture I had as a child, btw. I never liked that the eyes look away, and in icons they do look at you ...

classic-jesus-243x300.jpg
 
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MilesVitae

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somewhat. there is more emotion in the Pieta, you can see the sorrow in Mary. icons are normally emotionless to take you past emotion into eternity.


oh you can, I just think it is more difficult with Western imagery because the dynamic depictions and the emotion that is in there. when we truly pray, we need an inner stillness that can be more easily hindered by such imagery.

and there are places for that and it can be done, just not in Church from what I have seen and read. if you can, glory to God.



niceness.

(Oh how I can't stand typing on a touchscreen, errg) When you say it can't be done, do you just mean it's not permitted?
 
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MilesVitae

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(Edit: Oops, I thought I resized the images.....let's see if I can fix that.)

Returning to this topic....

What do y'all think of such images as this:
24_Jacopo_di_Cione._Incoronazione_della_Vergine_e_santi_%28350x190cm%29_1372-73_Galleria_dell%27Accademia,_Florence.jpg

Or,
National_gallery_in_washington_d.c.,_orcagna_e_jacopo_di_cione,_madonna_col_bambino_e_angeli,_ante_1370.JPG

Or,
327729ex1_d_730w.jpg

Or
_49787884_49785331.jpg


Or this, which I actually have a copy of on my wall
duccio6.jpg


I saw some of these pieces and/or similar pieces on a recent trip to Florence, and was rather enamored with them. They seem more realistic than many icons I've seen (a quality which, personally, I like), but are also more straightforward, focused, and tranquil to look at than later, more dramatic western religious art, and I find them more conducive to prayer than the latter. Thoughts?
 
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~Anastasia~

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I prefer the last two over the others. I like the cross, and I like the last one quite a bit.

There is something about the first ones especially that is "distracting" to me personally, compared to icons. And there are some questions I'd have about some details, if they are "correct".

I always used to prefer more recent Western art for its aesthetic value. But having prayed in the presence of icons now, while I'm not very experienced at these things, I know that for myself, western art would tend to disturb my soul while praying, rather than do what icons do. That last one might not have any such effect, though. Except perhaps for the infantile appearance of Christ, it looks like iconography to me, in the sense that it could serve to calm and focus prayer.
 
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MilesVitae

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I prefer the last two over the others. I like the cross, and I like the last one quite a bit.

There is something about the first ones especially that is "distracting" to me personally, compared to icons. And there are some questions I'd have about some details, if they are "correct".

The first several I picked the off of a google search as examples of the style I wanted to point out, but I wouldn't select those particular images as the best I've seen. I do like the last two the best. There is another Madonna by the same artist (Duccio) you may care to see if you like that one (though, personally, I think I prefer the first one... although, I don't know, I can keep going back and forth):
2crevole.jpg

What "details" are you concerned about? I'm guessing one is the depiction of (presumably) God the Father?

I always used to prefer more recent Western art for its aesthetic value. But having prayed in the presence of icons now, while I'm not very experienced at these things, I know that for myself, western art would tend to disturb my soul while praying, rather than do what icons do. That last one might not have any such effect, though. Except perhaps for the infantile appearance of Christ, it looks like iconography to me, in the sense that it could serve to calm and focus prayer.
I'm coming to understand this more myself, through this discussion and considering some of these images.
 
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