How do you know God is really good?

[SolomonVII]

Yeah dogs are like that huh? Loyalty is more important than the truth. But we're better than that aren't we!

Ken

We cannot know what is beyond the ability of our dog brain to know.
We can only feel gratitude and loyalty towards a master that treats us well. A dog incapable of gratitude and loyalty towards a master such as that needs to be put down.

 

[elman]

A friend of mine has a bumper sticker on her car that says “ I wish I were as perfect as my dog thinks I am” and judging from the behavior and actions of her dog, it is obvious that her dog believes she is perfect or about as close as one can get.

But what this dog does not understand is that she is the type of person who cheats when nobody is looking, refuses to admit she is wrong even when she knows she is, and has a tendency to forget to return things when she borrows from you.

But that’s because he is an unintelligent dog! As long as she gives him plenty of food and water, takes him for a walk every morning, and scratches that little spot behind his ear that causes his leg to kick, every now and then; (and a bunch of other stuff)as far as this dog is concerned, she is golden. But if the dog were as intelligent as us humans are, the dog would see her flaws and lose respect for her and would probably want nothing to do with her.

For Christians, as long as God answers their prayers, helps them become a better person, makes them feel better and makes a bunch of promises concerning the afterlife, (and a bunch of other stuff) as far as the Christian is concerned God is perfect! But just like my friends dog is not as intelligent as humans and is unable to see the flaws in his owner, Christians are not nearly as intelligent as God; how do they know this is not preventing you from seeing the flaws in God? And if you were able to see such flaws, how do they know they would still want to have anything to do with him?

Ken

We cannot know God exist. Obviously we cannot know God is good all the time. The suffering in this world that is not caused by man is an indication God is not good all the time. The joy and contentment and beauty and inate knowledge that we should love and not hurt people indicates a good Creator. It seems to me our options are assume no Creator, assume a Creator that is both good and evil, assume an evil Creator or assume a Creator that is good all the time. I think the last assumption is the most reasonable one. I tend to agree that God is worthy of worship and praise only if God can be trusted to be loving and good all the time.

 

[bling]

Ken,

If there is a Creator, he has been around a very long time (most likely forever since something does not come from nothing), is extremely intelligent (looking at the complexity of the life and the universe) and is extremely powerful (there is a lot of stuff in our universe). Would this creator by now have the time and wisdom to overcome flaws?

We keep looking for “flaws” in our universe and keep coming up with good reasons why things are the way they are and actually now assume there are good reasons for everything and keep looking for the reason and do not throw our hands up and say: “should never have happened that way”.

I see everything that has and is happening explained by the objectives:

God creates humans because His unselfish Love would compel Him.

Humans are here on earth because it is the best/only place where humans could obtain this Godly type Love.

God has and is doing everything he can (totally unselfishly) to help willing humans fulfill their objective.

 

[sk8Joyful]

Christians are not nearly as intelligent as God; how do they know
this is not preventing you from seeing the flaws in God? And
if you were able to see such flaws, how do they know they would still want to have anything to do with him?

Ken,

God is flawed, many say. Since you rightly said that christians are not nearly as intelligent as God, how would they, or anyone else, know how flawless & perfect God really is. - For example, how earnestly have people Observed, Studied & tried to practice some of God's flawless love in His countless & ever increasing Creations...

 

[Ken-1122]

We cannot know God exist. Obviously we cannot know God is good all the time. The suffering in this world that is not caused by man is an indication God is not good all the time. The joy and contentment and beauty and inate knowledge that we should love and not hurt people indicates a good Creator. It seems to me our options are assume no Creator, assume a Creator that is both good and evil, assume an evil Creator or assume a Creator that is good all the time. I think the last assumption is the most reasonable one. I tend to agree that God is worthy of worship and praise only if God can be trusted to be loving and good all the time.

Why do you assume a creator that is good all the time? Why the last assumption rather than all the other ones you listed?

K

 

[Ken-1122]

Ken,

If there is a Creator, he has been around a very long time (most likely forever since something does not come from nothing), is extremely intelligent (looking at the complexity of the life and the universe) and is extremely powerful (there is a lot of stuff in our universe). Would this creator by now have the time and wisdom to overcome flaws?

Actually the question was "is he good" not is he flawless

Ken

 

[leftrightleftrightleft]

Actually by definition God is not a perfect being. YOU might claim your God is perfect, but other concepts of God are not perfect, eternal, or all the other attributes Christians claim their God is. So the question is, how do you know your ignorance of God is preventing you from seeing flaws?

K

I did a quick wiki search on perfection. A very interesting article. It seems there has been a debate raging about whether God is perfect for about 2500 years. Within that argument is the even more interesting debate about what perfection actually is or means. But that probably belongs to another thread. I think before I started throwing around the word "perfection" I should have thought more clearly about what that word meant because after reading that article, my brain hurts.

Regardless, I generally equate "God" with "objective morality". So, if such an objective morality exists (which I believe it does), then that objective morality is intrinsically linked to God. If the objective morality is not intrinsically linked to God, then it means that God's actions are judged by a higher authority which contradicts that of God being the highest authority. So if God is not good then there is an authority above him which no longer makes him the highest authority therefore meaning that I should be putting my faith in that authority above him. This leads to an infinite regression of authorities until I eventually get to the last one. In other words,

Of course this assumes that an "objective morality" exists. I assume that you don't believe that such an objective morality exists???

 

[elman]

Why do you assume a creator that is good all the time? Why the last assumption rather than all the other ones you listed?

K

The joy and contentment and beauty and inate knowledge that we should love and not hurt people indicates a good Creator.

 

[Ken-1122]

Regardless, I generally equate "God" with "objective morality". So, if such an objective morality exists (which I believe it does), then that objective morality is intrinsically linked to God. If the objective morality is not intrinsically linked to God, then it means that God's actions are judged by a higher authority which contradicts that of God being the highest authority.

Objective morality does not mean it must be linked to the most powerful or highest ranking being; it is simply a moral opinion that does not change. Subjective morality could change on a case by case basis, or according to the situation of which it is applied.

Now you might say your God has a objective morality that is to be applied to all of mankind, but so do I! Granted nobody listens to me but a case can be made that nobody listens to your God either so why would one assume God’s objective morality is any more powerful than mine? I have a morality, you may have a morality, the next guy and so on; and there are slight differences between each of our moral opinions; but if our moral opinions are not to be swayed according to the situation it is counted as an objective morality rather than a subjective morality.

Of course this assumes that an "objective morality" exists. I assume that you don't believe that such an objective morality exists???

It sorta amuses me when Christians assume they have an objective morality and the Atheist has a subjective morality. It seems to me it should be the other way around.

An atheist can say “killing the innocent is wrong! Human sacrifice is wrong! Slavery is wrong!” and apply that to every situation because he does not have to defend anyone’s actions other than his own. The Christian on the other hand will often struggle with these moral opinions because they feel obligated to defend biblical characters such as Moses, Saul, Joshua, and even God! And if you say “human sacrifice is wrong unless God does it” that would be an example of subjective morality.

So I guess my answer is; Yes! I do believe morality can be objective; but my question to you is….. do you???

Ken

 

[Ken-1122]

The joy and contentment and beauty and inate knowledge that we should love and not hurt people indicates a good Creator.

I can do that! it doesn't mean I am good all the time!

Ken

 

[razeontherock]

Bottom line is trust. That comes about via experience.

 

[elman]

I can do that! it doesn't mean I am good all the time!

Ken

You and I are a mixture of Good and Evil. I don't think the Creator of everything is such a mixture, and I am confident he is more capable of doing the right things than we are.

 

[addo]

Well, I'll try a new approach and see where this goes. If we define God as the greatest conceivable being and accept that good > evil, then God is good for an evil God would be inferior to a good God, and God is the greatest, so that cannot be.

 

[Ken-1122]

You and I are a mixture of Good and Evil. I don't think the Creator of everything is such a mixture, and I am confident he is more capable of doing the right things than we are.

Just because he is more capable than I doesn't mean he is all goodl does it?

K

 

[Ken-1122]

Well, I'll try a new approach and see where this goes. If we define God as the greatest conceivable being and accept that good > evil,

When you look at the situation the world is in today, do you really believe good is greater than evil?

then God is good for an evil God would be inferior to a good God, and God is the greatest, so that cannot be.

Assuming there is no other God; good or evil, he can still be the greatest without being perfect; don't cha think?

Ken

 

[razeontherock]

When you look at the situation the world is in today, do you really believe good is greater than evil?

This is a fair question! This is why I say God "stacked the deck against Himself." This is also why Scripture says that without Faith it is impossible to please God. And we walk by Faith, not by sight. Peter walking on the water to Jesus is a perfect illustration of this principle

 

[addo]

When you look at the situation the world is in today, do you really believe good is greater than evil?

I was making "good > evil" more of an axiomatic belief. But anyway, at what are we supposed to look when deciding whether good is better than evil? At what's in your best self-interest or at whether that particular thing helps other human beings, for example? But to answer your question, yes, I believe, even given the present world, that good is better/greater than evil and preferable to it.

Assuming there is no other God; good or evil, he can still be the greatest without being perfect; don't cha think?

Ken

Well, I said God is the greatest conceivable being.

 

[Iakobos]

Well of course nobody knows. There could be any number of explanations as to whats actually going on. It's all guesswork for each individual until their dead. Many people just favour a certain outlook while alive depending upon tastes, experiences, hopes, dreams etc.

 

[elman]

Just because he is more capable than I doesn't mean he is all goodl does it?

K

No but it does mean that our being good and evil does not prove God is good and evil.

 

[elman]

When you look at the situation the world is in today, do you really believe good is greater than evil?



Ken

Yes I believe good is better than evil. Love is better than hate.