How do Protestants feel about Martin Luther?

Rhamiel

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He later translated the NT into German for all the people to be able to read for themselves

you mean "for all the people who were able to read German"

most people in Germany could not read German (or anything else) wide spread literacy is fairly recent development
if you were educated, you could read Latin

also, there were translations of books of the Bible, and even entire Bibles, in Germany before Luther

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_translations_into_German#Pre-Lutheran_German_Bibles
 
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JacksBratt

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you mean "for all the people who were able to read German"

most people in Germany could not read German (or anything else) wide spread literacy is fairly recent development
if you were educated, you could read Latin

also, there were translations of books of the Bible, and even entire Bibles, in Germany before Luther

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_translations_into_German#Pre-Lutheran_German_Bibles
Yep, only those who could read German were then able to read it....good logic.

What this did mean, however, is that if I could read.... I could read it to others. This also meant that the church lost it's monopoly on what the scripture said. Knowledge is power and this gave the people knowledge.

We have already, in other threads, shown that the church did not want the general public to have access to the scriptures. The fact that the church was the only source allowed them to tell the people all kinds of things and use hell and damnation as a motivator, whether there was any merit to it or not.

I don't recall me ever saying that Martin Luther was the "only" person to translate the NT into a common language..... did I?
 
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FaithfulPilgrim

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Yep, only those who could read German were then able to read it....good logic.

What this did mean, however, is that if I could read.... I could read it to others. This also meant that the church lost it's monopoly on what the scripture said. Knowledge is power and this gave the people knowledge.

We have already, in other threads, shown that the church did not want the general public to have access to the scriptures. The fact that the church was the only source allowed them to tell the people all kinds of things and use hell and damnation as a motivator, whether there was any merit to it or not.

I don't recall me ever saying that Martin Luther was the "only" person to translate the NT into a common language..... did I?

There was also John Wycliffe.
 
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JCFantasy23

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com7fy8

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Quoting what I think is supposed to be from Martin Luther . . .
"If you are a preacher of mercy, do not preach an imaginary but the true mercy. If the mercy is true, you must therefore bear the true, not an imaginary sin. God does not save those who are only imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We, however, says Peter (2. Peter 3:13) are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth where justice will reign. It suffices that through God's glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world. No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. Do you think such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager sacrifice for our sins? Pray hard for you are quite a sinner."
http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/letsinsbe.txt
This gets my attention >
Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides.
Whether this is what Martin Luther means, as is, or not > what I am concerned about is how ones can get a procrastination thing from this . . . excusing themselves to keep on sinning . . . not expecting how God corrects us.

Hebrews 12:4-11, for me, is very clear, how God succeeds in correcting His children, in this life. And with this we have 1 John 4:17 which to me clearly means we in this life have been perfected in God's love; so we do not need to put off how we can with God become holy in His love now. And because we are more and more busy with loving, we are sinning less and less . . . though we are not perfect in this. It gets easier as we grow in Christ and His almighty safety from sinning. And we become strong so we can relate without getting hurt (1 Peter 3:13), we do not hurt others (Romans 13:10), and this comes with doing what Paul says, in Philippians 2:12-16.

So, how much does Martin Luther or John Calvin give attention to this?
 
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Constantine the Sinner

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Quoting what I think is supposed to be from Martin Luther . . . This gets my attention >
Whether this is what Martin Luther means, as is, or not > what I am concerned about is how ones can get a procrastination thing from this . . . excusing themselves to keep on sinning . . . not expecting how God corrects us.

Hebrews 12:4-11, for me, is very clear, how God succeeds in correcting His children, in this life. And with this we have 1 John 4:17 which to me clearly means we in this life have been perfected in God's love; so we do not need to put off how we can with God become holy in His love now. And because we are more and more busy with loving, we are sinning less and less . . . though we are not perfect in this. It gets easier as we grow in Christ and His almighty safety from sinning. And we become strong so we can relate without getting hurt (1 Peter 3:13), we do not hurt others (Romans 13:10), and this comes with doing what Paul says, in Philippians 2:12-16.

So, how much does Martin Luther or John Calvin give attention to this?
Calvin thinks we have no freewill, and it wouldn't matter anyway, since from his perspective our actions have zero bearing on our salvation, God preordained who will be saved and who will be damned, and if you were marked one or the other, there is zero you can do to change that.
 
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Open Heart

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No, the Pope unequivocally condemned same-sex marriage. He's done some funny things, like visit a gay couple in the U.S. in an extremely enthusiastic way, and said Catholics should apologize for offending gays, but despite all this questionable behavior, he hasn't waffled or equivocated on dogma. There are many things I could criticize the Pope for, but when it comes down to it, he's still a serious adherent of the faith and isn't afraid to say it. I'm quite sure that if a Catholic priest conducted a same-sex marriage, the Pope would excommunicate him immediately, or at least defrock him. I'm not sure I like the Pope, but I am sure I trust him.
Yes, the Pope was absolutely clear that he rejected same sex marriage, and he supported marriage as has been traditionally taught. However, there was a footnote about those divorced and remarried that was ambiguous. That's all I'm saying.
 
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Lutherisch

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It seems Protestants these days tend to have more of a Calvinist bent than a Lutheran one. So what's the general consensus on Martin Luther?

As a Confessional Lutheran, I suppose I could say that he was a forthright, honest chap who did what he could to address his concerns of internal ecclesiastical corruption by appealing to the Pope for a general Council ( perhaps to be held at Mantua) and barring that, to teach the good Christians of Saxony and the rest of Northern Germany ( and a good bit of Southern Germany) the principles of Law and Gospel with the doctrine of justification by faith.

Calvinism is held by the Lutheran Confessions to be in error ( double predestination as a major example. We don't believe God predestines anybody to be damned and we do affirm the belief in the Real Presence of Jesus Christ's Body and Blood in the Bread and Wine of Holy Communion), but we regard Calvinists themselves as our siblings in Christ, as we do every Nicene- Creed affirming Christian.

I didn't quote the quotes because I don't see their relevance to contemporary Confessional Lutheranism. Martin Luther himself was a man beset by opposition and for all his noble intentions, was a man still who would be the first to tell you that he himself had feet of clay. He put European Christianity and Germanic Catholicism back on track by his emphasis on Biblical truth and subordination of tradition to that truth. The Book of Concord is a faithful extrapolation of Biblical truth which shows in the Testimonies how Lutheran teaching is but a continuation of the teachings of the Apostolic Christian Church http://bookofconcord.org/testimonies.php.
 
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BobRyan

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It seems Protestants these days tend to have more of a Calvinist bent than a Lutheran one. So what's the general consensus on Martin Luther?

Here are some quotes by him.

Know that Marriage is an outward material thing like any other secular business.

But the woman is free through the divine law and cannot be compelled to suppress her carnal desires. Therefore the man ought to concede her right and give up to somebody else the wife who is his only in outward appearance.

Suppose I should counsel the wife of an impotent man, with his consent, to giver herself to another, say her husband’s brother, but to keep this marriage secret and to ascribe the children to the so-called putative father. The question is: Is such a women in a saved state? I answer, certainly

I confess that I cannot forbid a person to marry several wives, for it does not contradict the Scripture. If a man wishes to marry more than one wife he should be asked whether he is satisfied in his conscience that he may do so in accordance with the word of God. In such a case the civil authority has nothing to do in the matter.

Christ committed adultery first of all with the women at the well about whom St. John tell’s us. Was not everybody about Him saying: ‘Whatever has He been doing with her?’ Secondly, with Mary Magdalen, and thirdly with the women taken in adultery whom He dismissed so lightly. Thus even, Christ who was so righteous, must have been guilty of fornication before He died.
.

sadly for the smear campaign - Luther never wrote any of that.
==================

First, the quote has no context. One does not know what exactly Luther had in mind. Was he kidding? Was he summarizing someone else's argument? Was he using hyperbole? It's really hard to say. If taken literally, it certainly is at odds with his other statements about Christ. Thus, even though one can't know exactly why he said this, we can have a strong assurance he didn't mean it literally.

The editors of Luther's Works include a footnote for this comment of Luther's, and they offer the following speculation:
"This entry has been cited against Luther, among others by Arnold Lunn in The Revolt Against Reason (New York: Sheed & Ward, 1951), pp. 45, 257, 258. What Luther meant might have been made clearer if John Schlaginhaufen had indicated the context of the Reformer’s remarks. The probable context is suggested in a sermon of 1536 (WA 41, 647) in which Luther asserted that Christ was reproached by the world as a glutton, a winebibber, and even an adulterer."

If you run across a Roman Catholic citing these words against Luther (or any obscure comments from Luther's Table Talk) I commend to you also these words by Roman Catholic Scholar Thomas O’Meara:

“…Catholics are using inaccurately rhetorical arguments when they make the value of Luther’s theology and reform depend upon his table-talk language. Rhetoric appeals to the mind- but it appeals through emotions. It reaches the mind not through a purely intellectual act, examining the case thoroughly and logically, but by leaps and bounds, driven by emotions and will, faculties incapable of a calm judgment of what is true” [Thomas O’Meara, Mary in Protestant and Catholic Theology, (New York: Sheed and Ward, 1966), 5].

I always caution Roman Catholics to be careful with Luther’s Table Talk. The Table Talk is a collection of comments from Luther written down by Luther’s students and friends. Thus, it is not in actuality an official writing of Luther's and should not serve as the basis for interpreting his theology.

======================== end quote

What makes that even more ironic is that even the open-to-public-news-source is to be rejected in Catholic tradition if the person in the news does not have the Papal Imprimatur on his news article.
 
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FireDragon76

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Calvin thinks we have no freewill

While I am no fan of John Calvin's theology, I think it's always better to learn about a tradition from the tradition itself, rather than the polemics against it.

Calvinism has a lot of strange use of language but it would be a gross oversimplification to say that Calvin denied "free will".
 
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Constantine the Sinner

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While I am no fan of John Calvin's theology, I think it's always better to learn about a tradition from the tradition itself, rather than the polemics against it.

Calvinism has a lot of strange use of language but it would be a gross oversimplification to say that Calvin denied "free will".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination_in_Calvinism#Calvin.27s_writings


Note that I'm not saying Calvinism today denies freewill. I'm just saying Calvin did himself.
 
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FireDragon76

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Note that I'm not saying Calvinism today denies freewill. I'm just saying Calvin did himself.

What is "free will"? Philosophers are still pondering that one, if even the concept makes sense. Reformed Christians do not deny human responsibility. At the very least, the Reformed understanding of predestination seems congruent with Compatibilist explanation of free will.

The Reformed concept of double predestination usually has only a passive understanding of reprobation- God doesn't actively damn anyone, but he saves only the elect. The original emphasis of this teaching was pastoral rather than speculative: whatever happens to the elect is ultimately for their sanctification, because it is part of God's overall plan.
 
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Constantine the Sinner

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What is "free will"? Philosophers are still pondering that one, if even the concept makes sense. Reformed Christians do not deny human responsibility. At the very least, the Reformed understanding of predestination seems congruent with Compatibilist explanation of free will.

The Reformed concept of double predestination usually has only a passive understanding of reprobation- God doesn't actively damn anyone, but he saves only the elect. The original emphasis of this teaching was pastoral rather than speculative: whatever happens to the elect is ultimately for their sanctification, because it is part of God's overall plan.
Freewill means to choose your own thoughts and actions, as opposed to them being purely chosen by something exterior to yourself.
 
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