How do Protestants feel about Martin Luther?

[civilwarbuff]

Constantine the Sinner said: ↑

According to Saint John Chrysostom, giving money to those in need when you have abundance is not a gift, it is simply delivering to them what is theirs by right, and to do otherwise is to steal from them.

Psalm 24:1

Psalms 24
A Davidic Psalm.
A Song for the King of Glory
1 The earth and everything in it exists for the LORD— the world and those who live in it.
2 Indeed, he founded it upon the seas, he established it upon deep waters.
3 Who may ascend the mountain of the LORD? Who may stand in his Holy Place?
4 The one who has innocent hands and a pure heart; the person who does not delight in what is false and does not swear an oath deceitfully.
5 This person will receive blessing from the LORD and righteousness from the God of his salvation.
6 This is the generation that seeks him. Those who seek your face are the true seed of Jacob. Interlude
7 Lift up your heads, gates! Be lifted up, ancient doors, so the King of Glory may come in.
8 Who is the King of Glory? The LORD strong and mighty, the LORD, mighty in battle.
9 Lift up your heads, gates! Be lifted up, ancient doors, so the King of Glory may come in.
10 Who is he, this King of Glory? The LORD of the heavenly armies— He is the King of Glory. Interlude

I don't see it, maybe it is another one?

 

[FireDragon76]

They acknowledge division but formally don't consider anything morally objectionable about it--if they did, they'd certainly not maintain a common communion and confession with parishes openly conducting same-sex marriages as official functions by their clergy.

My pastor is from an LCMS background, and at one time he was probably as conservative in sexual morality as Humanum Vitae. Maybe he still is- I do know since the Pulse nightclub shooting, he has become more nuanced. But he doesn't think the issue is something that one can avoid fellowship over. That's not how Lutheran ecclesiology works. As long as the Gospel is preached and the sacraments administered, that is what is essential.

You also went into full Communion with the Episcopal Church, who are even permitted and sometimes asked for their clergy to act as yours in some parishes.

The Episcopal Church is a great church, I have nothing against it, and at one time I considered being Episcopalian. I don't go to the local one all that often because the preaching is often not as good and there's not as much emphasis on the sacraments. I do sometimes go to the healing service on Wednesdays.

Pope Francis doesn't judge persons. He does absolutely affirm what's right and wrong though. He doesn't judge mothers who have abortions, for instance, but he does absolutely state abortion is murder.

I think we talked about abortion on another thread- I'm no fan of abortion. But the church is a place for forgiveness. We can't all be perfect.

The Pope is wanting to take a more nuanced ethic than legalism, and that is a good thing.

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

Constantine the Sinner said: ↑

According to Saint John Chrysostom, giving money to those in need when you have abundance is not a gift, it is simply delivering to them what is theirs by right, and to do otherwise is to steal from them.


Psalms 24
A Davidic Psalm.
A Song for the King of Glory
1 The earth and everything in it exists for the LORD— the world and those who live in it.
2 Indeed, he founded it upon the seas, he established it upon deep waters.
3 Who may ascend the mountain of the LORD? Who may stand in his Holy Place?
4 The one who has innocent hands and a pure heart; the person who does not delight in what is false and does not swear an oath deceitfully.
5 This person will receive blessing from the LORD and righteousness from the God of his salvation.
6 This is the generation that seeks him. Those who seek your face are the true seed of Jacob. Interlude
7 Lift up your heads, gates! Be lifted up, ancient doors, so the King of Glory may come in.
8 Who is the King of Glory? The LORD strong and mighty, the LORD, mighty in battle.
9 Lift up your heads, gates! Be lifted up, ancient doors, so the King of Glory may come in.
10 Who is he, this King of Glory? The LORD of the heavenly armies— He is the King of Glory. Interlude

I don't see it, maybe it is another one?

Psalms 24:1 says (in more literal translations) that the earth and everything in it is the Lord's. Read in the context of Matthew 25:44, you can see Saint John Chrysostom's point.

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

My pastor is from an LCMS background, and at one time he was probably as conservative in sexual morality as Humanum Vitae. Maybe he still is- I do know since the Pulse nightclub shooting, he has become more nuanced. But he doesn't think the issue is something that one can avoid fellowship over. That's not how Lutheran ecclesiology works. As long as the Gospel is preached and the sacraments administered, that is what is essential.

You seem to be dichotomizing the morality and the faith, which doesn't make sense. Morality is a massive thing in the Christian faith, how can you claim to have faith in God if you don't think his morality is important? We're not just talking about breaking it, either, we're talking about breaking it as an official church function and blessing breaking his morality.

The Episcopal Church is a great church, I have nothing against it, and at one time I considered being Episcopalian. I don't go to the local one all that often because the preaching is often not as good and there's not as much emphasis on the sacraments. I do sometimes go to the healing service on Wednesdays.

They have same-sex marriage as a Sacrament, in fact they caused a schism by that (Continuing Anglicans are the ones who split over it).

 

[FireDragon76]

They have same-sex marriage as a Sacrament, in fact they caused a schism by that (Continuing Anglicans are the ones who split over it).

Continuing Anglicans left a long time ago over changes to the prayer book and women's ordination. Ask Albion for this, he is the expert on Continuing Anglicans. In some ways, there may actually be less hostility to gays in the CA movement than those churches that broke away from Episcopalians, who were relatively few in number.

I think morality but it's not as central as you seem to think it is. Morality comes from having a relationship with God. Different Christians disagree on this issue and I suppose in some sense that's tragic, but even as an Orthodox catechumen I had this same understanding about gay people as I do now. I'm a sinner, I'm in no place to judge anybody and if I see the fruits of the Spirit in the lives of gay people, I have no right to judge them.

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

Continuing Anglicans left a long time ago over changes to the prayer book and women's ordination. Ask Albion for this, he is the expert on Continuing Anglicans. In some ways, there may actually be less hostility to gays in the CA movement than those churches that broke away from Episcopalians, who were relatively few in number.

Well it was one of the schisms, they have several.

I've talked to Continuing Anglicans, they are very traditional. They pray in church that abortion may stop being legal in the United States and things like that. They aren't open to gay marriage, and that's not really surprising, since there are no denominations that are pro-gay but don't allow female ordination.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Psalms 24:1 says (in more literal translations) that the earth and everything in it is the Lord's. Read in the context of Matthew 25:44, you can see Saint John Chrysostom's point.

I would have to disagree; everything in the world belongs to God but Ps 24:1 does not speak to charity. If you want to work a spritual interpretation into it you could probably make that argument but that would be a stretch......

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

I would have to disagree; everything in the world belongs to God but Ps 24:1 does not speak to charity. If you want to work a spritual interpretation into it you could probably make that argument but that would be a stretch......

Psalms 24:1 says the everything belongs to the Lord (not to you). Therefore when you give away some of what you don't need, you aren't giving what is yours, you're giving what is God's. And God says in Matthew 25:45 that if you refuse to give to those who need, you refuse to give to him (and that is his own anyway). God states what he wants done with wealth, he has given us wealth and told us what we are to do with it; if it comes through our hands to the poor, it's not us giving what is ours, it is simply following God's instructions on allocating what is his; if we don't do that, we are stealing from the people God intended the wealth for.

 

[Open Heart]

The ELCA doesn't really approve of those things, but neither do they condemn individual persons. Does that make sense? It's also like what Pope Francis has said on the issue.

It sounds like the ELCA is being unclear. Certainly the Pope was unclear.

 

[samir]

It seems Protestants these days tend to have more of a Calvinist bent than a Lutheran one. So what's the general consensus on Martin Luther?

Most Protestants I talked to like Luther because he rebelled against the RCC and taught an easier path to salvation (faith alone instead of having to humbly submit to Christ and follow his teaching) but they don't care what he thought about other matters and think he was wrong about many things. I mostly know "non-denominational" Protestants who belong to modern sects who love to boast they know better than all the Christians who lived before them.

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

It sounds like the ELCA is being unclear. Certainly the Pope was unclear.

No, the Pope unequivocally condemned same-sex marriage. He's done some funny things, like visit a gay couple in the U.S. in an extremely enthusiastic way, and said Catholics should apologize for offending gays, but despite all this questionable behavior, he hasn't waffled or equivocated on dogma. There are many things I could criticize the Pope for, but when it comes down to it, he's still a serious adherent of the faith and isn't afraid to say it. I'm quite sure that if a Catholic priest conducted a same-sex marriage, the Pope would excommunicate him immediately, or at least defrock him. I'm not sure I like the Pope, but I am sure I trust him.

 

[ChristsSoldier115]

I see what you mean, I think Muntzer and other radical prophets was due to the individualistic spirit of the Renaissance, which was influenced by the humanists infatuation with the newly discovered self (even Luther was a bit guilty of this). But not all forms of pietism or mysticism are individualistic.

In fact I would say the basic Bible-onlyism we often see on this forums owes not so much to mysticism as just a basic American belief in consumer choice and individualism. It's not so much mysticism as a desire to discipline ones experience of the world by adopting a privatized religious ethos that protects the self from uncertainty (in that sense it potentially could be very much about homo incurvatus in se)

That has to be a dead on and one of the best analysis of american christianity I have seen yet.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

I see what you mean, I think Muntzer and other radical prophets was due to the individualistic spirit of the Renaissance, which was influenced by the humanists infatuation with the newly discovered self (even Luther was a bit guilty of this). But not all forms of pietism or mysticism are individualistic.

In fact I would say the basic Bible-onlyism we often see on this forums owes not so much to mysticism as just a basic American belief in consumer choice and individualism. It's not so much mysticism as a desire to discipline ones experience of the world by adopting a privatized religious ethos that protects the self from uncertainty (in that sense it potentially could be very much about homo incurvatus in se)

I think it's a common misconception that those who allow experience in relationship to Christ to be a guide in their life being construde as humans curved in on themselves is a copout for those who allow a mediator other than Christ to come between them and God.

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

I think it's a common misconception that those who allow experience in relationship to Christ to be a guide in their life being construde as humans curved in on themselves is a copout for those who allow a mediator other than Christ to come between them and God.

It's certainly integral to cultivate a relationship with Christ, but there are methods of doing it. If you don't follow those methods, you fall into what is called "prelest".

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

It's certainly integral to cultivate a relationship with Christ, but there are methods of doing it. If you don't follow those methods, you fall into what is called "prelest".

We all are standing on the shoulders of those who have gone before but those w/o experience can never confirm a truth that is scripturally stated.

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

We all are standing on the shoulders of those who have gone before but those w/o experience can never confirm a truth that is scripturally stated.

You should always consult an elder of great spirituality if possible. It's very easy to be deluded.

 

[FireDragon76]

You need a balance of both. Giving unearned trust to authorities is not healthy, but neither is engaging in serious spiritual commitment without outside guidance. There have been plenty of crazy people who thought they heard the voice of God after all. Interacting with other human beings at the very least tests your experience against somebody else's and helps your approach objectivity. And that's the reason that Jesus established a church and delegated apostolic authority (even Lutherans and the Reformed believe in this), he never intended for his disciples, in general, to be mavericks.

Interpreting the Bible is serious business, it was written by people with an alien worldview (especially here in the US or in western Europe). There's a reason that pastors go to a seminary for years to do so. I don't know what your experience at church is like but the pastor at the church I go to is not some kind of authoritarian personality that I never feel I can question. I trust him because he's earned my trust.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Most Protestants I talked to like Luther because he rebelled against the RCC and taught an easier path to salvation (faith alone instead of having to humbly submit to Christ and follow his teaching) but they don't care what he thought about other matters and think he was wrong about many things. I mostly know "non-denominational" Protestants who belong to modern sects who love to boast they know better than all the Christians who lived before them.

Thank you for demonstrating you know absolutely nothing about Protestantism. I can now ignore the rest of your posts knowing I will not be missing any seriious contribution to the discussion.

 

[samir]

Thank you for demonstrating you know absolutely nothing about Protestantism. I can now ignore the rest of your posts knowing I will not be missing any seriious contribution to the discussion.

I was a Protestant for most of my life, been to dozens of Protestant churches and bible studies, and most people I know are Protestants so I know exactly what I'm talking about.

 

[JacksBratt]

It seems Protestants these days tend to have more of a Calvinist bent than a Lutheran one. So what's the general consensus on Martin Luther?

Here are some quotes by him.

Know that Marriage is an outward material thing like any other secular business.

But the woman is free through the divine law and cannot be compelled to suppress her carnal desires. Therefore the man ought to concede her right and give up to somebody else the wife who is his only in outward appearance.

Suppose I should counsel the wife of an impotent man, with his consent, to giver herself to another, say her husband’s brother, but to keep this marriage secret and to ascribe the children to the so-called putative father. The question is: Is such a women in a saved state? I answer, certainly

I confess that I cannot forbid a person to marry several wives, for it does not contradict the Scripture. If a man wishes to marry more than one wife he should be asked whether he is satisfied in his conscience that he may do so in accordance with the word of God. In such a case the civil authority has nothing to do in the matter.

Christ committed adultery first of all with the women at the well about whom St. John tell’s us. Was not everybody about Him saying: ‘Whatever has He been doing with her?’ Secondly, with Mary Magdalen, and thirdly with the women taken in adultery whom He dismissed so lightly. Thus even, Christ who was so righteous, must have been guilty of fornication before He died.

I, Martin Luther, have during the rebellion slain al the peasants, for it was I who ordered them to be struck dead. All their blood is upon my head. But I put it all on our Lord God: for he commanded me to speak thus.

To kill a peasant is not murder; it is helping to extinguish the conflagration. Let there be no half measures! Crush them! Cut their throats! Transfix them. Leave no stone unturned! To kill a peasant is to destroy a mad dog!

Peasants are no better than straw. They will not hear the word and they are without sense; therefore they must be compelled to hear the crack of the whip and the whiz of bullets and it is only what they deserve.

If I had to baptize a Jew, I would take him to the bridge of the Elbe, hang a stone round his neck and push him over with the words I baptize thee in the name of Abraham.

Like the drivers of donkeys, who have to belabor the donkeys incessantly with rods and whips, or they will not obey, so must the ruler do with the people; they must drive, beat throttle, hang, burn, behead and torture, so as to make themselves feared and to keep the people in check.

Moses is an executioner, a cruel lictor, a torturer a torturer who tears our flesh out with pincers and makes us suffer martyrdom . . . Whoever, in the name of Christ, terrifies and troubles consciences, is not the messenger of Christ, but of the devil . . . Let us therefore send Moses packing and for ever.

It does not matter what people do; it only matters what they believe.

If we allow them - the Commandments - any influence in our conscience, they become the cloak of all evil, heresies and blasphemies

One should learn Philosophy only as one learns witchcraft, that is to destroy it; as one finds out about errors, in order to refute them

It is more important to guard against good works than against sin.

Reason is the Devil's handmaid and does nothing but blaspheme and dishonor all that God says or does.

St. Augustine or St. Ambrosius cannot be compared with me.

How do I feel about Martin Luther?

He was a man and only a man. I may agree on some things, disagree on others.

He was appalled that the church was selling people things to allow them certain indulgences. He wrote a theses which was a critique of 95 of these "indulgences" and how they were corrupting people and ruining their faith.

He nailed this to the door of the university...

He later translated the NT into German for all the people to be able to read for themselves..

He declared that the Bible did not give the Pope the exclusive right to interpret scripture.

He had a lot of views and opinions that some may agree or disagree with.
No doubt he was a huge influence on the history of the churches of this world. But I don't agree with every theology he presented.