How close to the 'end' of this earth as we know it?

[Imagican]

As far as we know, Mystery Babylon could be America. If Rome or the Catholic Church has a part in Revelation, it is more likely to be the 'false prophet' than the mentioned, "Mystery Babylon".

For what other country on Earth has done business with the 'entire world' as America has for the past hundred years?

And Revelation states that upon the destruction of "Mystery Babylon", all the merchants of the world will be affected by it's destruction. That only leaves a couple of possibilities: America or China.

But I would offer that America has most likely had a more profound effect upon the economics of the world than China. That is rapidly changing, but even though China is gaining quickly economically, America has still had a larger influence on 'the world' than China. America, with it's much smaller population, is still using a major percentage of the worlds resources. Still doing 'business' or 'trade' with most of the world. Many merchants would be 'out of jobs' if America were destroyed.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Wgw]

I myself am inclined to regard Babylon as a typological representation of worldy urban corruption. I see Babylon in New York, London, Los Angeles, ancient Rome...

As an interesting aside, a large community of Jews remained in Babylon or Seleucia-Cstesiphon until the city became uninhabitable and the population shifted to Baghdad, which can be regarded as the modern day successor to Babylon, as a localized city. That said, I rather doubt that Baghdad is Babylon typologically; recall the various nutters who said Saddam was the anti-Christ.

 

[random person]

The Bible informs us that upon Christ's return, this earth is going to be transformed into a 'different world'.

When asked about the 'time' of His return, Christ stated that only the Father knew the 'time'.

But, there were signs that would take place to let us know when the 'time' was near. Christ described these 'signs' that would take place before He would return.

It would appear that almost everything He predicted that would 'happen first' have already taken place.

Does this mean that we are 'very close' to the 'time' of His return?

If so, then one of the 'things' described as 'happening first' is that the 'world' would be followers of something other than the truth. It states that there 'must come a falling away first'.

What is the 'falling away'? Certainly it isn't a 'falling away from religion' or a 'falling away from faith', for these things would endure no matter what. They always have been an integral part of the existence of man, so it must be something else.

It is my belief that the reference is to 'truth'. That directly before the return of Christ, mankind will have 'fallen away' from the 'truth'. Following truth of their own design instead of the 'truth' as delivered by God through prophet, His own Son and the apostles.

So, if what I have offered is the truth, then that would mean if we are 'closer than every' to the 'time' of Christ's return, the 'falling away' must have already begun and be nearing it's completion.

Now, the important question would be: 'What is the 'source' of the influence of the 'falling away'. What will 'lead' men to follow their own truth rather than that offered by God through His messengers?

It's pretty obvious.

Satan.

Satan has one goal and that one goal is what he's been working towards for thousands upon thousands of years.

Satan wants to 'be God'. And the only way that he can fulfill that goal is to have men worship him as God.

That means that Satan has been working towards turning men away from the truth and to follow him instead of God for thousands of years.

There are many in this world that do not 'worship any specific God'. Satan already owns those souls. No need to exert specific influence on these for they are already following that which leads them to worship him even if indirectly.

Those that Satan would exert the most energy towards would be those that still possess some 'truth' that has been delivered by God through His messengers. Turning those away from the truth of God and directing them to worship him as God instead.

That is what I believe the 'falling away' to be. Satan replacing God's truth with his truth and convincing men that it is 'their own'. Teaching men to teach each other that he is God and bringing them to bow to him instead of God.

A tricky question: If one did not 'know' God, if Satan pretended to be God, how would one 'know' the difference? In other words, if Satan is capable of 'lying wonders' and miracles, how does one 'know' how to distinguish the difference between his miracles and lying wonders from the Spirit of God?

And if Satan has introduced a 'false Christ', how does one 'know' the difference between Satan's 'false Christ' and the 'true Christ'? If Satan is able to mimic the true Christ, how does one distinguish the difference between the Son of God and the Son of Satan?

And what if? What IF Satan is able to offer more 'sensual feelings' than those offered by God? What if he is able to appeal to the flesh in a manner that God would never attempt? And what if that is what men desire more than that which is Spiritual: that which is sensual?

Understand, we do not battle against 'flesh' but against evil influence in high places. Those that have the ability to alter the perceptions of this world in a profound manner. Those in POWER to control what we are exposed to the most.

Media, the churches, schools, governments, political and social leaders, doctors, lawyers, the courts and judges. What if 'all' those in a place of power are being manipulated by Satan in order to influence the rest of us. University professors, kindergarten teachers, mayors, governors, presidents. What if these are the individuals referred to as 'powers and high places'?

And what we see more than anything else in the world today is an attempt at conformity. We are being manipulated by governments to be 'good citizens'. To 'do' that which we are 'trained' to do for the betterment of the 'whole'. "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country". Is it really that difficult to see just how easily such a mantra could be used to turn one away from the truth and towards a 'worldly goal'?

We are warned that the 'judges of this world' are 'worldly judges'. If it was that way during the time of Christ, imagine how much more so today than then. For nothing has gotten in the way of such change. If anything, greed for wealth and power has increased instead of decreased. And there is no greater influence on this earth than wealth and power. When we read the Bible we can clearly see the examples offered where even those devoted to God have been able to be 'carried away' by their own lusts for wealth and power.

So who close are we really? For it is without any doubt that the closer we get the more the 'falling away' will become fulfilled. Every day closer, the more the 'falling away' will become closer to being manifest. At what point does the 'falling away' become complete?

The Bible tells us that God must 'cut the days short' or even His very elect will be led astray.

If we use the Bible as an example, each time that God has chosen to destroy men, there was only ONE left that God considered 'worthy' to be saved.

Noah, at one point Moses had to appeal to God 'not' to destroy 'the people' and start over with 'just him', Lot. Each of these examples are God saving the 'only' person worthy and destroying the rest.

Will it be any different in the end? Will God destroy the righteous along with the unrighteous in the 'end' of this world as we know it? Not according to the examples we have from the Bible. He will wait till only one or very few exist to 'cut the days short.

So if we are 'very close' to that time, how many can we suppose still exist? How many of God's 'very elect' remain at the present time? And as we speak, wouldn't the concept dictate that every day, some of God's 'very elect' are being 'led astray'?

Blessings,

MEC

i follow covenantal eschatology,

"world"/"earth"

"erets" in ot hebrew
"ge" in nt greek

can also mean "land" or "nation" or "territory" or "country" too

a new heavens and a new earth occurs in only three verses of the whole bible isaiah 65:17; isaiah 66:22 & revelation 21:1

how do you explain these verses?

isaiah 65:20?
isaiah 65:21?
isaiah 65:23-24?

isaiah 66:22?
isaiah 66:24?

revelation 22:2 (please note the nations arent healed)?
revelation 22:15?

how do these individual verses relate to "transformed" into a "different world"?

 

[parousia70]

Much of the Bible was written in a manner that 'can't be understood' until it actually 'takes place'. The reason being so that those that are present when it takes place will know that it had to be divinely revealed once fulfilled.

That is your opinion.

I can guarantee you that John understood very little if 'any' of the vision he recorded. He was told to 'record it', not to 'understand it'. The vision wasn't for him so much as those that would read it thousands of years later.

Rather, He was instructed to record it and deliver it to 7 actual first century Christian congregations made up of actual, real, living, blood pumping, air breathing Human beings, as a warning TO THEM about events that were to take place "shortly" FOR THEM, for the time of their fulfillment was then "at Hand".

Revelation 3:3, for example, is entirely, specifically, primarily applicable to the first century people of the Church at Sardis.

Any meaning or application we today can glean from that verse is secondary to the meaning applied to fist century Sardis.

Your desire to completely remove those people to whom the letter was specifically addressed from ANY application of the letter is to be rejected by the honest Bible expositor.

So yes, there are some pretty large portions of the Bible that have had little relevancy to the 'people' so far.

Again I say, Preposterous.

 

[random person]

oops i goofed "a new heaven and a new earth" is only found in four verses add 2 peter 3:13 to the very short llist


does anyone know what isaiah 66:24 is speaking about?

the valley of hinnom aka gehenna in 1st century jerusalem when it was the city's garbage dump. its fires were never quenched and harbored alot of nasties like a plague of maggots.

when jerusalem was destroyed and leveled by the romans in 70 ad, they didnt give any of jerusalem's slain a proper burial but threw the bodies down the valley of hinnom into the fires and the garbage dump inhabitants. yet according to many christians those bodies should have vaporized when heaven and earth melted?

 

[ImAllLikeOkWaitWat]

I had a vision where the clock was at the 11th hour meaning the time is near for the rapture of the church. So be on the watch people. Christ can come at any time.

 

[random person]

As far as we know, Mystery Babylon could be America. If Rome or the Catholic Church has a part in Revelation, it is more likely to be the 'false prophet' than the mentioned, "Mystery Babylon".

For what other country on Earth has done business with the 'entire world' as America has for the past hundred years?

And Revelation states that upon the destruction of "Mystery Babylon", all the merchants of the world will be affected by it's destruction. That only leaves a couple of possibilities: America or China.

But I would offer that America has most likely had a more profound effect upon the economics of the world than China. That is rapidly changing, but even though China is gaining quickly economically, America has still had a larger influence on 'the world' than China. America, with it's much smaller population, is still using a major percentage of the worlds resources. Still doing 'business' or 'trade' with most of the world. Many merchants would be 'out of jobs' if America were destroyed.

Blessings,

MEC

who is mystery babylon?

don k preston offers 7 unmistakeable identifying clues of mystery babylon

or read ezekiel chapters 16 & 23

and no i am not endorsing any book purchases but cant "copy and paste" the list of 7 clues from the link above atm. edit i fixed the link above

 

[farout]

The Bible informs us that upon Christ's return, this earth is going to be transformed into a 'different world'.

When asked about the 'time' of His return, Christ stated that only the Father knew the 'time'.

But, there were signs that would take place to let us know when the 'time' was near. Christ described these 'signs' that would take place before He would return.

It would appear that almost everything He predicted that would 'happen first' have already taken place.

Does this mean that we are 'very close' to the 'time' of His return?

If so, then one of the 'things' described as 'happening first' is that the 'world' would be followers of something other than the truth. It states that there 'must come a falling away first'.

What is the 'falling away'? Certainly it isn't a 'falling away from religion' or a 'falling away from faith', for these things would endure no matter what. They always have been an integral part of the existence of man, so it must be something else.

It is my belief that the reference is to 'truth'. That directly before the return of Christ, mankind will have 'fallen away' from the 'truth'. Following truth of their own design instead of the 'truth' as delivered by God through prophet, His own Son and the apostles.

So, if what I have offered is the truth, then that would mean if we are 'closer than every' to the 'time' of Christ's return, the 'falling away' must have already begun and be nearing it's completion.

Now, the important question would be: 'What is the 'source' of the influence of the 'falling away'. What will 'lead' men to follow their own truth rather than that offered by God through His messengers?

It's pretty obvious.

Satan.

Satan has one goal and that one goal is what he's been working towards for thousands upon thousands of years.

Satan wants to 'be God'. And the only way that he can fulfill that goal is to have men worship him as God.

That means that Satan has been working towards turning men away from the truth and to follow him instead of God for thousands of years.

There are many in this world that do not 'worship any specific God'. Satan already owns those souls. No need to exert specific influence on these for they are already following that which leads them to worship him even if indirectly.

Those that Satan would exert the most energy towards would be those that still possess some 'truth' that has been delivered by God through His messengers. Turning those away from the truth of God and directing them to worship him as God instead.

That is what I believe the 'falling away' to be. Satan replacing God's truth with his truth and convincing men that it is 'their own'. Teaching men to teach each other that he is God and bringing them to bow to him instead of God.

A tricky question: If one did not 'know' God, if Satan pretended to be God, how would one 'know' the difference? In other words, if Satan is capable of 'lying wonders' and miracles, how does one 'know' how to distinguish the difference between his miracles and lying wonders from the Spirit of God?

And if Satan has introduced a 'false Christ', how does one 'know' the difference between Satan's 'false Christ' and the 'true Christ'? If Satan is able to mimic the true Christ, how does one distinguish the difference between the Son of God and the Son of Satan?

And what if? What IF Satan is able to offer more 'sensual feelings' than those offered by God? What if he is able to appeal to the flesh in a manner that God would never attempt? And what if that is what men desire more than that which is Spiritual: that which is sensual?

Understand, we do not battle against 'flesh' but against evil influence in high places. Those that have the ability to alter the perceptions of this world in a profound manner. Those in POWER to control what we are exposed to the most.

Media, the churches, schools, governments, political and social leaders, doctors, lawyers, the courts and judges. What if 'all' those in a place of power are being manipulated by Satan in order to influence the rest of us. University professors, kindergarten teachers, mayors, governors, presidents. What if these are the individuals referred to as 'powers and high places'?

And what we see more than anything else in the world today is an attempt at conformity. We are being manipulated by governments to be 'good citizens'. To 'do' that which we are 'trained' to do for the betterment of the 'whole'. "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country". Is it really that difficult to see just how easily such a mantra could be used to turn one away from the truth and towards a 'worldly goal'?

We are warned that the 'judges of this world' are 'worldly judges'. If it was that way during the time of Christ, imagine how much more so today than then. For nothing has gotten in the way of such change. If anything, greed for wealth and power has increased instead of decreased. And there is no greater influence on this earth than wealth and power. When we read the Bible we can clearly see the examples offered where even those devoted to God have been able to be 'carried away' by their own lusts for wealth and power.

So who close are we really? For it is without any doubt that the closer we get the more the 'falling away' will become fulfilled. Every day closer, the more the 'falling away' will become closer to being manifest. At what point does the 'falling away' become complete?

The Bible tells us that God must 'cut the days short' or even His very elect will be led astray.

If we use the Bible as an example, each time that God has chosen to destroy men, there was only ONE left that God considered 'worthy' to be saved.

Noah, at one point Moses had to appeal to God 'not' to destroy 'the people' and start over with 'just him', Lot. Each of these examples are God saving the 'only' person worthy and destroying the rest.

Will it be any different in the end? Will God destroy the righteous along with the unrighteous in the 'end' of this world as we know it? Not according to the examples we have from the Bible. He will wait till only one or very few exist to 'cut the days short.

So if we are 'very close' to that time, how many can we suppose still exist? How many of God's 'very elect' remain at the present time? And as we speak, wouldn't the concept dictate that every day, some of God's 'very elect' are being 'led astray'?

Blessings,

MEC

Too many Christians are so consumed with Christ's return, instead living as if tomorrow was you last day on Earth. Are you a born again believer? Are you living for the Lord? Are you ready to stand before the LORD? Do you read the Bible regularly, belong to and are you involved in a church? What is your prayer life like?

We are to be ready, are you? See I believe we are called to be ready. If you are not 1,000% ready then do not concern yourself too much about when, but more about getting ready. Do not spin your life wanting to know when but being in an ever ready condition. Blessings.

 

[random person]

PLEASE MARK THESE VERSES IN YOUR BIBLES:

GENESIS 8:21

PSALMS 72:7

PSALMS 72:17

ECCLESIASTES 1:4

EPHESIANS 3:21

 

[Imagican]

Too many Christians are so consumed with Christ's return, instead living as if tomorrow was you last day on Earth. Are you a born again believer? Are you living for the Lord? Are you ready to stand before the LORD? Do you read the Bible regularly, belong to and are you involved in a church? What is your prayer life like?

We are to be ready, are you? See I believe we are called to be ready. If you are not 1,000% ready then do not concern yourself too much about when, but more about getting ready. Do not spin your life wanting to know when but being in an ever ready condition. Blessings.

While what you offer is the truth. We certainly should be living like today is the last day of our lives, that doesn't mean we can't read what is offered about 'the end' in order to come to a 'deeper understanding'. If we weren't meant to read and comprehend, I kind of doubt that the information would have been recorded.

I will offer this though:

We are only given understanding to the extent we are able to bear it. Some little, others a lot. All understanding offered is not meant to be understood by 'all'.

But there is a 'point' to this thread other than the 'time' of 'the end'. And that being the 'present state' of the 'Church'. For if there is to be a 'falling away', certainly it won't take place 'all at one time'. It would be something that would 'start' and then ''grow'' to the point that all but the 'very elect' will end up being 'led stray' from the truth.

So if it is a 'trend' that started long ago, where would that place us 'today'? The closer we get to the 'end' the more the 'people' will be led astray. So is it possible that 'at that time', ALL the 'churches' will have been 'led astray'? If this is the truth, then where does that place ''the Churches'' today?

Blessings,

MEC

 

[timewerx]

Christ stated that only the Father knew the 'time'.

Of course, because Christ only extrapolated but the Father Himself "was" or will be there when the end times come. So only the Father will know the exact year, month, day, time...

It would appear that almost everything He predicted that would 'happen first' have already taken place.

Not yet, not until every persons on Earth has been profiled electronically. In the next decade or two perhaps.

 

[Imagican]

That is your opinion.

Yes it is. And more than opinion, it is my belief as well. And to prove it, I ask you to explain Revelation to us in a manner that we can recognize. If you can't, then it's obvious it wasn't meant for you to understand it because it has yet to be fulfilled. The same reason no one else understands it.

Rather, He was instructed to record it and deliver it to 7 actual first century Christian congregations made up of actual, real, living, blood pumping, air breathing Human beings, as a warning TO THEM about events that were to take place "shortly" FOR THEM, for the time of their fulfillment was then "at Hand".

Yet the events still haven't taken place. Neither Daniel's visions nor John's have yet to be fulfilled.

Revelation 3:3, for example, is entirely, specifically, primarily applicable to the first century people of the Church at Sardis.

So you believe that those at the time John penned Revelation understood it but no one today remembers? Or those at the time of Daniel understood what he offered about his visions yet no one knows today?

Any meaning or application we today can glean from that verse is secondary to the meaning applied to fist century Sardis.

I couldn't disagree more.

It is my belief that we have more information that would allow us a better understanding than those two thousand years ago could possibly have understood about 'the end times.

How do you think men at the time of Moses would have reacted to the idea that the world was round? Or his reaction if somehow someone could have shown him pictures of all the different animals from around the world? Heck, how about his reaction if somehow he could be brought to the present time and shown highways full of cars or a 'cell phone' capable of taking instant pictures and speaking to people all around the earth? The point being, if John saw a 'vision' of the future, I can assure you that he would have seen things that he didn't even have words to define. Tanks, jets, weapons that at his time were unimaginable.

Your desire to completely remove those people to whom the letter was specifically addressed from ANY application of the letter is to be rejected by the honest Bible expositor.

What makes you think that these words were offered to the people you mention for any other reason than to preserve them for those of the 'future'? I haven't 'removed' anyone. I have simply offered that the vision offered by God to men to record often had no relevancy to the person recording them.

No different than if you were a secretary told to deliver a message that contained information you didn't understand. You job was 'messenger', not translator.

Again I say, Preposterous.

We are all certainly free to have our own opinions. Mine are based upon the Bible. And from what I have witnessed, there are very few that even make an attempt to understand it. And of the few that try, most end up with more confusion to offer others than any sort of understanding.

So, you believe that both Daniel and John actually 'understood' the visions that they recorded? Funny, but the descriptions offered by both are so vague and symbolic I'm confused as to how anyone could believe that they understood what they were recording.

For even today, I have yet to meet a single person that would claim to understand their visions completely. Since most of what they wrote was symbolic, it will be difficult to understand the entire nature of their writings until we can 'look back' with hindsight. In other words, until their visions are fulfilled, it is likely that 'no one' will understand them completely.

Like reading any 'story' or 'book', it is very difficult to 'guess' what comes next in revelation of the details. However, once read, then all that preceded the ending makes sense.

The visions of Daniel and John are 'like that'. Only able to be fully understood once they are 'complete'.

Or, maybe you understand the intricate details and can explain them to us in a way no one on Earth has been able to do for over two thousand years. I'm all ears.

Now I have addressed both Daniel and John. And it is my belief that neither had the first clue as to what their vision entailed. They weren't instructed in understanding. They were merely informed to 'record' what they 'saw' in their visions.

How do you suppose that someone given a vision of a future they could not even imagine could understand what their vision represented in anything other than the most rudimentary fashion.

Like someone today having a vision about events happening two thousand years in our future.

Imagine what Abraham Lincoln think about our world today? And if he had been given visions of 'our time', how much of what he saw in the vision would actually make any sort of 'sense' to him? And his time was only a bit over a hundred years ago.

If the majority of those 'claiming' to be Christians today can't even understand the basic principles outlined in the Bible, how do you suppose there are any capable of understanding the complex nature of the visions given to Daniel and John? Heck, most that claim to be 'Christians' openly admit to never having even read the Bible.

So if you have the answer to Daniel's visions and John's concerning the 'end times', by all means, share it.

But if you are a Preterist trying to indicate you believe Revelation has already been fulfilled. I'm not really interested. Already heard it and rejected it for the sake of the truth. And the truth is, no one 'yet' has been able to give an exact revelation of the visions of either Daniel or John. And the reason is is that it most likely can't be completely understood until after it is fulfilled.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[parousia70]

What makes you think that these words were offered to the people you mention for any other reason than to preserve them for those of the 'future'? I haven't 'removed' anyone. I have simply offered that the vision offered by God to men to record often had no relevancy to the person recording them.

Revelation 3:3
3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.

Who is the "you" in this passage?

 

[zippy2]

Revelation 3:3
3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.

Who is the "you" in this passage?

The "you" is who ever is reading the words of this book. (Revelation of Jesus Christ)

 

[parousia70]

The "you" is who ever is reading the words of this book. (Revelation of Jesus Christ)

So Jesus already came as a thief to every person over the past 1900 years who read the words and didn't watch, at an hour they didn't know?

 

[parousia70]

The "you" is who ever is reading the words of this book. (Revelation of Jesus Christ)

Do you apply that belief consistently throughout scripture?

Philippians 2:19
But I trust in the Lord Jesus to send Timothy to you shortly, that I also may be encouraged when I know your state.

Should we be waiting for Timothy's soon arrival to us Zippy?

After all, The "you" here is everyone who reads the words of the book, yes?

 

[zippy2]

So Jesus already came as a thief to every person over the past 1900 years who read the words and didn't watch?

It is talking about the return of Christ. He hasn't returned yet. It is talking about when two things happen at the same time: we read those words and it is the time of the Lord's return. You do believe in His return don 't you?

 

[zippy2]

Do you apply that belief consistently throughout scripture?

Philippians 2:19
But I trust in the Lord Jesus to send Timothy to you shortly, that I also may be encouraged when I know your state.

Should we be waiting for Timothy's soon arrival to us Zippy?

After all, The "you" here is everyone who reads the words of the book, yes?

I was speaking specifically about the book of Revelation which speaks of the literal return of Jesus Christ. Philipians 2 does not talk about the return of Timothy literal or otherwise.

 

[parousia70]

It is talking about the return of Christ. He hasn't returned yet.

Ok, so How then could the "you" be applied to "everyone" as you claimed, if this passage is only applicable to the people alive at the thief's coming??

Do you believe the 1st century Christians at Sardis who first recieved this letter, addressed directly to them, knew right then that they could ignore this passage, ignore this warning, since it was not for them?

You do believe in His return don 't you?

Absolutely.

 

[parousia70]

I was speaking specifically about the book of Revelation

Ok, so you do not apply your interpretation consistently throughout scripture.
So Noted.

Philipians 2 does not talk about the return of Timothy literal or otherwise.

So who is the "you" in Php 2:19 then?