How can you be against abortion but for the death penalty?

[Far Side Of the Moon]

Wow this really hits a cord with me. First of all let me say I find it appalling that the rights of a convicted felon are considered equal to the rights of an unborn child. I am a ex con having served a 10 year bit, and as such I have a little of an inside knowledge of prison. I believe in and support both prison, and the death penalty. It is obvious to me that any one that can ask about the rights of people in prison do not know the evil contained in those walls. Nor do they understand the plights of the victims of the convicted. For every convict, there are victims. My first bunk mate was Edwin Bernard Kaprat. You can Google him. He was a serial murderer and rapist of elderly women Know as the " granny killer ". Point being, until you look into the soulless eyes of evil, you can not understand. I can with all my heart justify his death. I fully understand the penalty for the sins this man committed. I saw the tears and the pain from the families he victimized. I heard him brag about what he'd done. Yes, I can fully with a clear conscience condone this man's death. And take it from me its not a matter of vengence. Its a matter of justice. The victims deserve justice. I find myself at a point where I can forgive him his sin, but If given the power over him I could not justify taking away his punishment. Actions must have consequences. The victims rights must supercede that of the aggressors. I hope he found Christ...... he was murdered in prison. I cannot shake the feeling that justice was done. He was an evil man. How dose this compare to an unborn child? I'm sorry, but I don't see the parallel connection. An unborn child is innocent, and has caused no harm to anyone. How can I justify the death of innocents? To me its kind of the same reason people despise pedophiles so much. How could you harm a child? How could you in any way kill a child? Its beyond me how it could be condoned.

Would it have been better if he was never born then?

 

[Far Side Of the Moon]

I don't understand how a religion built on martyrdom has so many followers who defend things like abortion and the death penalty.
If Christianity were a color, it would be red. Christ was crucified, his followers were martyred, the saints are martyred, we even drink the blood and strive in a blood of a covenant. We are expected to shed ours if need be, and shed others in diligence.

There's more than enough blood to be spilling it out of revenge and vanity.

I agree with you.. I definitely feel something should be done about those who commit horrendous crimes..but at the same time I cant stomach or condone anothers death.

I feel like alot of people kinda cherry pick... What comforts them they keep ..what rubs them the wrong way..they're up in arms about.

 

[Albion]

I agree with you.. I definitely feel something should be done about those who commit horrendous crimes..but at the same time I cant stomach or condone anothers death.

I feel like alot of people kinda cherry pick... What comforts them they keep ..what rubs them the wrong way..they're up in arms about.

Maybe some do that, but I have no such conflicts. It's wrong to put innocent people to death. That's pretty clear cut and no contradictions or cherry picking.

 

[Far Side Of the Moon]

Maybe some do that, but I have no such conflicts. It's wrong to put innocent people to death. That's pretty clear cut and no contradictions or cherry picking.

But if your going by the bible.. We all deserve death..everyone that walks the earth.. If we get grace and mercy..why cant those that deserve it moat..

Those without a conscious.... They need gods help most... The best apostle Paul was a killer.. If he lived in today's time..he could have never wrote the new testament BC he would have been strapped to an electro chair..

I'm not saying they dont deserve any punishment.. I think they need serious help.

 

[Albion]

But if your going by the bible.. We all deserve death..everyone that walks the earth.

That refers to God's judgment and concerns sin. It's not a reference to the affairs of men in our society.

 

[SolomonVII]

Comparing abortion to the death penalty always seemed to me to be a rather forced narrative.

It is akin to wondering how someone can be against punishing non-rapists even when they are for punishing non-rapists. Because we ought let non-rapist go free on account of their innocents, does that therefore oblige us to let rapist go free, on account of their guilt?

Whether the DP is a good policy or not, equating bestowing the ultimate punishment on the innocent with bestowing the ultimate punishment on the guilty is such a forced comparison in the first place.

 

[Radrook]

What gets me about this is that when an animal is deemed that it will suffer a horrible existence they are put to sleep because it is the compassionate thing to do.

 

[SolomonVII]

What gets me about this is that when an animal is deemed that it will suffer a horrible existence they are put to sleep because it is the compassionate thing to do.

Isn't it the compassionate thing to do?

 

[Radrook]

Isn't it the compassionate thing to do?

Humans are sometimes denied that compassion because they are humans.
Very ironic.

 

[SolomonVII]

Humans are sometimes denied that compassion because they are humans.
Very ironic.

It is not lack of compassion. It is the deeper understanding that people, unlike animals, are created in the image of God. Putting people down from that perspective can be pretty horrific to contemplate.

 

[Radrook]

It is not lack of compassion. It is the deeper understanding that people, unlike animals, are created in the image of God. Putting people down from that perspective can be pretty horrific to contemplate.

Even when the person begs to be put down?

 

[VanillaSunflowers]

Hi everyone. I have noticed over the years that a lot of people who are pro-life are also for the death penalty. Why is this? If you are for the preserving of one life then why are you for the destruction of another? Wouldn't it be more consistent to be against both abortion and capital punishment?

Now, don't get me wrong, I definitely believe that abortion is murder. However, I see the death penalty as more of a form of revenge than a form of justice and the Bible clearly tells us not to seek revenge:

Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God; for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord." No, "if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals upon his head." Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
(Romans 12:19-21 RSV-CE)

I also realize that the unborn are innocent of sin except for original sin while those condemned to death are guilty of actual sin.

Also, the Bible says to love your enemies:

But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.
(Matthew 5:44-45 RSV-CE)

So how is putting a criminal to death loving them? I mean all law abiding citizens could say that criminals are enemies of society. So how is putting them to death loving them? Wouldn't it be more loving to let them live their whole life in prison? At least then they have more time to repent of their evil deeds.

This is not to mention the fact that there have been innocent people put to death by capital punishment. It has happened before and it could easily happen again.

Also, I personally see capital punishment as cruel and unusual punishment. Doesn't the Constitution or some other law forbid cruel and unusual punishment?

Great observation. Seriously! Those for the DP but against abortion are like saying, we insist all babies be born so when they do the really wrong thing when they're adults we can kill them!

 

[Radrook]

Great observation. Seriously! Those for the DP but against abortion are like saying, we insist all babies be born so when they do the really wrong thing when they're adults we can kill them!

Well, the Bible does say that if we murder someone then we should pay with our life. Doesn't it?

Genesis 9:6English Standard Version (ESV)


6 “Whoever sheds the blood of man,
by man shall his blood be shed,
for God made man in his own image.

 

[RedPonyDriver]

A history lesson on the current "pro-life" movement.
hings haven't always been the way they are now with American Christianity.

A 1968 a symposium sponsored by the Christian Medical Society and Christianity Today, the flagship magazine of evangelicalism, refused to characterize abortion as sinful, citing 'individual health, family welfare, and social responsibility' as justifications for ending a pregnancy.

In 1973, Wallie Amos ‘W. A.’ Criswell, President of the Southern Baptist Convention from 1968 to 1970, had this to say:

“I have always felt that it was only after a child was born and had a life separate from its mother that it became an individual person, and it has always, therefore, seemed to me that what is best for the mother and for the future should be allowed."

Enter con-man Paul Weyrich, the late religious conservative political activist, co-founder of the Heritage Foundation, and Godfather of The “Christian” Right, who literally shopped various issues trying to galvanize a conservative “Christian” movement.

His hypothetical “moral majority” needed a catalyst—a standard around which to rally. For nearly two decades, Weyrich, by his own account, had been trying out different issues, hoping one might pique evangelical interest: inappropriate contentography, prayer in schools, the proposed Equal Rights Amendment to the Constitution, even abortion. “I was trying to get these people interested in those issues and I utterly failed,” Weyrich recalled at a conference in 1990.

The 1978 Senate races demonstrated to Weyrich and others that abortion might motivate conservatives where it hadn’t in the past. He saw his opening and he never looked back. He and his buddies Francis Schaeffer, Jerry Falwell, Richard Viguerie, and others were off and running in the creation of The "Christian" Right.

This article in Politico explains the entire early ugly history in great detail. It is a must read. ... As you will learn, abortion was just a ploy to rally a herd mentality. Bigotry was the real motivation behind the madness of Paul Weyrich and his bunch.

There are of course many other facets to this story. Frank Schaeffer picks up where Politico left off in his book,

"Crazy for God: How I Grew Up as One of the Elect, Helped Found the Religious Right, and Lived to Take All (or Almost All) of It Back."

Frank's book is another "must read" for seekers of the Truth.

The article, "The ‘biblical view’ that’s younger than the Happy Meal" does a great job of explaining the bizarre, cult-like shift that has taken place over the last 3 decades with regard to how Christianity views abortion.

After 34 years of constant messaging The Christian Right Industrial Complex has become a Billion Dollar Empire. Before every Presidential Election the key operatives get in their private jets, meet at an arranged location, and ordain their chosen candidate for President. Then they get back in their jets and fly back to their tax exempt havens. In 2012 they ordained Rick Santorum.

Ever since the above described shift began pseudo-religious, political operatives like Tony Perkins and "The Family Research Council" have conducted a multiple decade propaganda / brainwashing campaign that would make Joseph Goebbels proud! Wouldn't you know it? The motto of the Family Research Council is "Pro Marriage & Pro Life." Those two terms are dog whistles for "Anti LGBT Equality & Anti Choice." They've cherry-picked a few scriptures and twisted them to mean something they don't. Let's look at some of those scriptures. Analysis below from "The Bible is Pro-Choice," by Joyce Arthur.

The first such passage is found in Psalm 139:13-16:

"For Thou didst form my inward parts; thou didst weave me together in my mother's womb. I praise thee, for thou art fearful and wonderful. Wonderful are thy works! Thou knowest me right well; my frame was not hidden from thee, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth. Thy eyes beheld my unformed substance; in thy book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them."

All this passage states is that God is directly involved in the creation of a fetus and knows its future. This is useless for the anti-choice position, since God creates all living things, including trees and bugs. Plus, just because God is supposedly omniscient doesn't give fetuses any special status—it simply means God already knows whether they will live or die. It is dishonest to conclude from this verse that a fetus is a human being deserving of more protection than women. The passage is poetic prose that anti-choicers have twisted and trivialized by giving it a literal, objective meaning where there is none.

The second passage used by anti-choicers is similar:

"Now the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 'Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born, I consecrated you'..." (Jeremiah 1:4-5)

Unfortunately, anti-choicers usually stop right there, and forget the rest of Verse 5, which negates their preferred meaning:

"...'and I appointed you a prophet to the nations.'"

This passage is specific to one, very special person—Jeremiah the prophet, whom God has called to provide miraculous powers and authority to the world. Since we are not all destined to be divine prophets, this verse cannot be construed as applying to any fetus except the unborn Jeremiah. Again, anti-choicers are being dishonest by pulling this verse totally out of its context.

The third passage quoted by anti-choicers tells the story of Elizabeth, the mother of John the Baptist, and Mary the mother of Jesus, while both were pregnant:

"In those days, Mary arose and went with haste into the hill country, to a city of Judah, and she entered the house of Zechariah and greeted Elizabeth. And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit." (Luke 1:39-41)

This passage simply records a fetus kicking in the womb. We can only wonder in befuddlement why anti-choicers think this would help them. Besides, John the Baptist is yet another divine fetal prophet ordained by God. Since very few of us are chosen by God before birth to herald the arrival of the Messiah on earth, we cannot claim that this passage venerates all fetuses.

End of content from "The Bible is Pro-Choice."

Conservative "Christians" actually get extremely hostile about this issue. Abortion and LGBT equality are the only two flimsy reasons they have to cling their twisted right-wing ideology. Deep down they must know on some level that right-wing ideology and the teachings of Jesus Christ just don't go together. They don't line up. They don't fit. To alleviate their cognitive dissonance they have to demonize and scapegoat others. Liberals become "Baby Killers." LGBT folks are an "abomination," and a threat to the fabric of society and "good, clean Family Values."

It's really sad that modern Christianity has been led down this ugly road.

Again, conservative "Christians" won't read this article. It's up to us to educate ourselves and educate those around us who will listen.

 

[Radrook]

But if your going by the bible.. We all deserve death..everyone that walks the earth.. If we get grace and mercy..why cant those that deserve it moat..

Those without a conscious.... They need gods help most... The best apostle Paul was a killer.. If he lived in today's time..he could have never wrote the new testament BC he would have been strapped to an electro chair..

I'm not saying they dont deserve any punishment.. I think they need serious help.

You are right. He could have never written part of the NT if he would have been strapped to the Electric Chair. However, Paul never is described as murdering anyone. He is only described as having the garments of those who were murdering Stephan placed at his feet.

Acts 7:58 ►
New International Version
dragged him out of the city and began to stone him. Meanwhile, the witnesses laid their coats at the feet of a young man named Saul.

 

[Far Side Of the Moon]

You are right. He could have never written part of the NT if he would have been strapped to the Electric Chair. However, Paul never is described as murdering anyone. He is only described as having the garments of those who were murdering Stephan placed at his feet.

Acts 7:58 ►
New International Version
dragged him out of the city and began to stone him. Meanwhile, the witnesses laid their coats at the feet of a young man named Saul.

ooooo youre right, I guess he wasn't a murderer...

 

[Mountainmanbob]

There's no comparison.

Abortion -- killing of an innocent baby.

Death penalty -- killing of a guilty person.

M-Bob

 

[Radrook]

ooooo youre right, I guess he wasn't a murderer...

Well, after some research I find that he does use the word murder in his admission of persecuting the church and he did cast his vote so that Christians were murdered. So I guess you were right after all..


Acts 26:10
And that is what I did in Jerusalem. With authority from the chief priests I put many of the saints in prison, and when they were condemned to death, I cast my vote against them.

Acts 9:1
Meanwhile, Saul was still breathing out threats of murder against the Lord's disciples. He went to the high priest


Acts 8: 3
…2God-fearing men buried Stephen and mourned deeply over him. 3But Saul began to destroy the church. Going from house to house, he dragged off men and women and put them in prison.



Acts 9:13
But Ananias answered, "Lord, many people have told me about this man and all the harm he has done to Your saints in Jerusalem.

Acts 9:21
All who heard him were amazed and asked, "Isn't this the man who wreaked havoc in Jerusalem on those who call on this name? And hasn't he come here to take them as prisoners to the chief priests?"


Acts 22:4
I persecuted this Way even to the death, detaining both men and women and throwing them into prison,

Acts 22:19
Lord,' I answered, 'they know very well that in one synagogue after another I imprisoned and beat those who believed in You.


1 Corinthians 15:9
For I am the least of the apostles and am unworthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

Galatians 1:13
For you have heard of my former way of life in Judaism, how severely I persecuted the church of God and tried to destroy it.

 

[RedPonyDriver]

Death penalty -- killing of a guilty person.

http://www.innocenceproject.org/
http://www.innocenceproject.org/cases/

WRONG!!!!

 

[SolomonVII]

When the death penalty intentionally kills people that the judges recognize to be innocent, then it is completely comparable to murder. Likewise, for abortion. When it intentionally kills people who are deemed to be innocent, it is as unjust as a death penalty that is indifferent to the matter of guilt and innocence.