How can we be confident in our theories about the Book of Revelation?

BabylonWeary

American
Jun 11, 2015
198
37
✟15,537.00
Faith
Christian
I see so many posts, and I'll admit I've even made one or two or so myself, explaining some elaborate theory about what the events/things/beings in this book represent. Now no one seems to really agree about all of it, though. You'd think at least some of us would read a person's theory and if it were the true one, we'd be convinced because we were trying to agree with the true theory. But it seems more as if we just use our theories to justify our worldview somehow--like if we have certain views about certain political and church groups, we mold our Book of Revelation model in accordance with those attitudes, so we don't have a reason to listen to anyone else's model. Doesn't that make our theories suspect?

Truth is stranger than fiction, sometimes, all this is mysticism. Time is not a straight line, and the Word come down from God forever. This is why to do away with the Old Testament is not helpful to Christians, that prophecy is, was, and will be true in ways for every generation. The new covenant is part of the old covenant. Not all of the Christianity is comprised of Israelites, and same could be said of Judaism, but the Revelation is given to Christians for the soul searching it takes to find the right place among the twelve. To all others the book is nonsense.
 
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
28,576
6,063
EST
✟992,249.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
It's very easy to find many more than 1 or 2 references of the imminent end of the age. It would be much more of a challenge to find NT authors predicting a long delay before the coming of the Lord as the futurist view embraces. I can't think of even 1 or 2 out-of-context or in-context proof texts used by futurists to show that any first century believer expected the end to be thousands of years, or even hundreds of years, in their future.

The reason they expected an imminent return is obvious. Jesus taught that their generation would witness the end of the age. Then every NT writer taught the end was about to be, or that it was near, shortly or soon.

Saying unidentified scripture is out-of-context does not make it so. What is out-of-context is "Jesus taught that their generation would witness the end of the age."

Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Was Jesus talking to His generation when He said this or was He talking to a later generation?

Mat 24:27-36
(27) For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
(28) For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
(29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
(30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
(31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
(32) Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
(33) So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
(34) Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
(35) Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
(36) But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

When did the generation that Jesus was talking to see these things?

1. The coming of the Son of man like lightning from the east, and shining even unto the west.
2. The sun darkened, the moon not giving her light, the stars falling from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shaken.
3. The sign of the Son of man in heaven.
4. All the tribes of the earth mourning.
5. The Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
6. Gods angels coming with a great sound of a trumpet, and
7. God's angels gathering together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
It was immediately after listing these signs that Jesus said, "When you shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Amen I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." None of the events in vss. 27-31 have happened, no one has ever seen them.

Note in vs. 36 "of that day and hour knows no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only." Jesus does not know the day or hour but according to you He was prophesying His second coming within the lifetime of the people He was talking to. Don't you see a contradiction there?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Chicken Little

Well-Known Member
Jun 11, 2010
1,341
288
mid-Americauna
✟3,163.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
What is out-of-context is "Jesus taught that their generation would witness the end of the age."

which age ? there is boat load of them. birth then death and then grave then resurrection , birth death and grave and resurrection. over and over.. he is the answer to the end of all of the ages. he is the fulfillment of all of the ages.

from Adam to David . time , times and a half time. from first king to king ..
MOses / Joshua to the end of this age and the catching away of the women in REV 12 , will be time times and half time thus the establishment of the kingdom . which she was hidden away from the dragon times times and half time, and will be again for 12?? days .

from Jesus birth and death to a new heaven and a new earth will be born Approx on the morning of the third day , just like he was approx resurrected on the morning of the third day.

these are just a few "AGES " that have and do prove he will complete them all just as he had completed the rest of them .


if the resurrection happens tomorrow it isn't the end of the ages. The new heaven and new earth will be. so what was his answer?

only in our head does the book of REV and the anti-christ mean an end of something .
 
Upvote 0

A New World

Member
May 21, 2014
455
82
CA
✟8,451.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Saying unidentified scripture is out-of-context does not make it so. What is out-of-context is "Jesus taught that their generation would witness the end of the age."

Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Was Jesus talking to His generation when He said this or was He talking to a later generation?

His generation

Mat 24:27-36
(27) For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
(28) For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
(29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
(30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
(31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
(32) Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
(33) So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
(34) Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
(35) Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
(36) But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

When did the generation that Jesus was talking to see these things?

Soon after the apostles wrote. They all explicitly stated that the end of the age had drawn near, it was about to take place, it would come shortly, or soon.

Jesus: Matthew 24:34 "Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.

Peter:
1 Peter 4:5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.

1 Peter 4:7 But the end of all things is near; therefore be serious and watchful in your prayers.

1 Peter 4:17 For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?

James:
James 5:7 Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, waiting patiently for it until it receives the early and latter rain.

James 5:8 You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is near.

James 5:9 Do not grumble against one another, brethren, lest you be condemned. Behold, the Judge is standing at the door!

John:
1 John 2:17 And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.

Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants--things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John,

Revelation 1:3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.

Paul:
Romans 13:11 And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed.

Romans 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is near. Therefore let us cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light.

Why not accept these straightforward, unambiguous time statements as written?

1. The coming of the Son of man like lightning from the east, and shining even unto the west.
2. The sun darkened, the moon not giving her light, the stars falling from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shaken.
3. The sign of the Son of man in heaven.
4. All the tribes of the earth mourning.
5. The Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
6. Gods angels coming with a great sound of a trumpet, and
7. God's angel gathering together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
It was immediately after listing these signs that Jesus said, "When you shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Amen I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

Jesus said all these things would take place in their generation. Every writer subsequently confirmed the imminence of His coming.

None of the events in vss. 27-31 have happened, no one has ever seen them.

If the futurist denies the events took place when Jesus and the inspired writers said they would, it may be time to change your understanding of the nature of the events foretold! At this point your denial has nothing to do with defending tradition or a favorite view, it's about denying the Word of God.

If the events failed to take place as and when the prophets said they would, they were false prophets. They said the events would take place soon, within their generation.

So, what is the best way to reconcile the nature of His coming once the timing issue is settled?

Mt. 24:27-29 must be understood as apocalyptic, figurative language similar to that used by Old Testament prophets.

When we compare Is. 13 and Mt. 24 we find:

Isaiah 13:1 The burden against Babylon which Isaiah the son of Amoz saw.

Isaiah 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD comes, Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger, To lay the land desolate; And He will destroy its sinners from it.

Isaiah 13:10 For the stars of heaven and their constellations Will not give their light; The sun will be darkened in its going forth, And the moon will not cause its light to shine.

Isaiah 13:17 "Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, Who will not regard silver; And as for gold, they will not delight in it.

Matthew 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

Isaiah employed language of cosmic upheaval to describe the imminent fall of Babylon to the Medes and the removal of her kingdom.

Jesus did the same as He spoke of the imminent end of the Old Covenant kingdom and God giving the kingdom to a new people and nation, the New Covenant church.

When one recognizes the similar prophetic styles there is no need to think that no one has ever seen the events described in the NT. The first century audience witnessed the fulfillment in accordance to the language with which they were intimately familiar.

Note in vs. "
of that day and hour knows no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only." Jesus does not know the day or hour but according to you He was prophesying His second coming within the lifetime of the people He was talking to. Don't you see a contradiction there?


No because there is no contradiction. Please remember the context and the verb tenses. Jesus told His audience, in about AD 30, that no man knows the day or the hour. We can both agree that no man knew that at that time. However, Jesus just informed them that certain signs would occur that would be indicators of His imminent return. So, He was not saying they could never know the day or the hour. How do we know this according to Scripture?

Again, Paul told the Romans, "Do this, knowing the time...the Day is near." (Rom. 13:11-12)
Had Paul recognized the signs Jesus foretold, was this just an educated guess, or was the Day really near?

And then there's John: "Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour." (1 Jn. 2:18)

Though Jesus had said in AD 30 that no man "knows" the day or the hour, Paul "knew" by about AD 60 that the day had drawn near, and John "knew" that it was the last hour.
 
Upvote 0

A New World

Member
May 21, 2014
455
82
CA
✟8,451.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
What is out-of-context is "Jesus taught that their generation would witness the end of the age."

which age ? there is boat load of them. birth then death and then grave then resurrection , birth death and grave and resurrection. over and over.. he is the answer to the end of all of the ages. he is the fulfillment of all of the ages.

from Adam to David . time , times and a half time. from first king to king ..
MOses / Joshua to the end of this age and the catching away of the women in REV 12 , will be time times and half time thus the establishment of the kingdom . which she was hidden away from the dragon times times and half time, and will be again for 12?? days .

from Jesus birth and death to a new heaven and a new earth will be born Approx on the morning of the third day , just like he was approx resurrected on the morning of the third day.

these are just a few "AGES " that have and do prove he will complete them all just as he had completed the rest of them .


if the resurrection happens tomorrow it isn't the end of the ages. The new heaven and new earth will be. so what was his answer?

only in our head does the book of REV and the anti-christ mean an end of something .

I think we must keep the overall context of Scripture in mind. It's about God and Israel, the covenants between them, and the story of her redemption. Since we now have the complete story in book form, we have a certain advantage over those actually living it out.

I believe we can positively identify the generation of which Jesus referred. Since Scripture is about Israel and her covenants, we must go back to the time when God first made a covenant with her.

Notice the words of Moses concerning the generation of Israel in her latter days:
Deuteronomy 31:29 "For I know that after my death you will become utterly corrupt, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you. And evil will befall you in the latter days, because you will do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke Him to anger through the work of your hands."

Deuteronomy 32:5 "They have corrupted themselves; They are not His children, Because of their blemish: A perverse and crooked generation.

Deuteronomy 32:20 And He said: 'I will hide My face from them, I will see what their end will be, For they are a perverse generation, Children in whom is no faith.

Moses warned this newly formed nation of her latter days. He said that future generation would be identified by three characteristics: Perverse, Crooked, No Faith.

We know that Old Covenant Israel had entered into her last days:
Hebrews 1:1 "God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,

Hebrews 1:2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds"

The New Testament gives the following description of the first century AD generation:

Jesus:
Matthew 17:17 "Then Jesus answered and said, "O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I bear with you? Bring him here to Me."

Peter:
Acts 2:40 "And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation."

Paul:
Philippians 2:15 "that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world"

As far as I know, the first century is the only time Israel was described using all three terms.

Combined Jesus, Peter and Paul characterized first century Israel just as Moses prophesied: A perverse and crooked generation in whom is no faith!

With this in mind, there is no ambiguity in Jesus' Words: "Matthew 24:34 "Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place."
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

donfish06

May The Lord Richly Bless You
Oct 24, 2013
602
50
Lima, Ohio
✟8,622.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I see so many posts, and I'll admit I've even made one or two or so myself, explaining some elaborate theory about what the events/things/beings in this book represent. Now no one seems to really agree about all of it, though. You'd think at least some of us would read a person's theory and if it were the true one, we'd be convinced because we were trying to agree with the true theory. But it seems more as if we just use our theories to justify our worldview somehow--like if we have certain views about certain political and church groups, we mold our Book of Revelation model in accordance with those attitudes, so we don't have a reason to listen to anyone else's model. Doesn't that make our theories suspect?

The scriptures are very clear. The angel told both Daniel and John that the mysteries were to be SEALED until the time of the end. But he also told John that the 7th angel (messenger) would finish the mystery of God (the revelation of Jesus). So there is only ONE way to know what it REALLY means. That is to wait for the 7th angel to reveal it.

Dan 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
 
Upvote 0

A New World

Member
May 21, 2014
455
82
CA
✟8,451.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The scriptures are very clear. The angel told both Daniel and John that the mysteries were to be SEALED until the time of the end. But he also told John that the 7th angel (messenger) would finish the mystery of God (the revelation of Jesus). So there is only ONE way to know what it REALLY means. That is to wait for the 7th angel to reveal it.

Dan 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Actually only Daniel was told that his words were sealed until the time of the end (Dan. 12:9).

John wrote: "And he said to me, "Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near" (Rev. 22:10)

John indicated several times that the events of Revelation were imminent (Rev. 1:1-3; 3:10-11; 22:6-12).
 
Upvote 0

Gregory Thompson

Change is inevitable, feel free to spare some.
Supporter
Dec 20, 2009
28,362
7,742
Canada
✟721,286.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Married
Exactly, God is not the author of confusion. Confusion is caused around a "tribulation rapture" theory, therefore all theories are wrong being part of the same confusion. Look at revelation from a blank slate premise and start over.
 
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
28,576
6,063
EST
✟992,249.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
. . .
When did the generation that Jesus was talking to see these things?

Soon after the apostles wrote. They all explicitly stated that the end of the age had drawn near, it was about to take place, it would come shortly, or soon. ...

I don't want to read all this over and over. I asked one thing and it has not be answered. When did ALL these prophecies happen, year and location? When did the generation that Jesus was talking to see these things?

1. The coming of the Son of man like lightning from the east, and shining even unto the west.
2. The sun darkened, the moon not giving her light, the stars falling from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shaken.
3. The sign of the Son of man in heaven.
4. All the tribes of the earth mourning.
5. The Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
6. Gods angels coming with a great sound of a trumpet, and
7. God's angels gathering together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Don't tell me what some later writer prophesied, tell me when it happened. An event of that magnitude would have been earth shaking so when did it happen?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Chicken Little

Well-Known Member
Jun 11, 2010
1,341
288
mid-Americauna
✟3,163.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
" Since Scripture is about Israel and her covenants" what if those covenants you speak of started a long time before even Abraham?
then what? what if it is the end of a different age or many ages/ covenants / and a beginning of one or many other ages of covenants ?
we don't know what we don't know or and we have forgotten what we have forgotten , maybe we don't have a clue what has been screwed up by crooked brains over many ages and never to be recognized again because it passed through just way to many very very very crooked minds to get to now.
why do you or he even call Israel a her ? wasn't it started with Abraham ? is it really only about Abraham? why does he call Israel a Her? the answer is stuff long forgotten and or screwed up beyond recognition.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Winepress777

Well-Known Member
Jun 8, 2015
497
145
68
✟8,905.00
Faith
Christian
I see so many posts, and I'll admit I've even made one or two or so myself, explaining some elaborate theory about what the events/things/beings in this book represent. Now no one seems to really agree about all of it, though. You'd think at least some of us would read a person's theory and if it were the true one, we'd be convinced because we were trying to agree with the true theory. But it seems more as if we just use our theories to justify our worldview somehow--like if we have certain views about certain political and church groups, we mold our Book of Revelation model in accordance with those attitudes, so we don't have a reason to listen to anyone else's model. Doesn't that make our theories suspect?
When one gathers all related references from all prior books of scriptures, and view the origin of what is said in each verse, then Jesus Christ Himself Reveals Himself in His Word. He is who brings it all together, the Word of God Himself. That leaves no theory to be explained, for then the Revelation, IS the Revelation.

Here's an easy example, obvious because it's a "quote". (but also look for allusions and parallels)

Romans 3:4

By no means! Let God be true though every one were a liar, as it is written, “That you may be justified in your words, and prevail when you are judged.”

From...

Numbers 23:19

God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?

Psalm 116:11

I said in my alarm, “All mankind are liars.”

And ESPECIALLY concerning the Revelation;

Proverbs 30:6

Do not add to his words, lest he rebuke you and you be found a liar.

(Rev 22:18) For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:


(Rev 22:19) And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
 
Upvote 0

A New World

Member
May 21, 2014
455
82
CA
✟8,451.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I don't want to read all this over and over.

My advice, either stop reading or begin to consider accepting the logical responses to your questions.


I asked one thing and it has not be answered. When did ALL these prophecies happen, year and location? When did the generation that Jesus was talking to see these things?
1. The coming of the Son of man like lightning from the east, and shining even unto the west.
2. The sun darkened, the moon not giving her light, the stars falling from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shaken.
3. The sign of the Son of man in heaven.
4. All the tribes of the earth mourning.
5. The Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
6. Gods angels coming with a great sound of a trumpet, and
7. God's angels gathering together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Please allow the logic to enter your mind so we don't have to continue to repeat ourselves. This is just as frustrating for me.

Jesus coming in the clouds and the language of cosmic upheaval finds its precedent in the Old Testament prophets.

Isaiah prophesied:
"For the stars of heaven and their constellations Will not give their light; The sun will be darkened in its going forth, And the moon will not cause its light to shine" (Is. 13:10).

This was figurative language related to the judgment on Babylon and the transition of kingdoms from Babylon to the Medes.

"The burden against Egypt. Behold, the LORD rides on a swift cloud, And will come into Egypt; The idols of Egypt will totter at His presence, And the heart of Egypt will melt in its midst" (Is. 19:1).

This is another example of fulfilled figurative judgment language.

Those living at that time witnessed the fulfillment of Isaiah's prophecies. Did they see the actual stars, sun, and moon darkened? No! Did they see a physical manifestation of God riding a literal cloud? No!

But, did they witness the judgment on Babylon and Egypt? Yes, absolutely! Though the evidence does not satisfy the modern futurists among us, they were nevertheless eyewitnesses of the fulfillment of Isaiah's prophecies.

Jesus prophesied:
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken" (Mt. 24:29).

"Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" (Mt. 24:30).

This is Jesus employing the same judgment language as Isaiah. However, in this case it's Israel being judged for her harlotry. This occurred just as Jesus prophesied, "Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place" (Mt. 24:34).

You need look no further than the first century if you're looking for the answer to the question: "When did ALL these prophecies happen?" According to Jesus and all the inspired NT writers, the coming of the Lord and the end of the age was about to be, it was near, shortly, or soon.

If you believe their words, you will adapt your understanding of the manner of His return to reflect the time frame.

Don't tell me what some later writer prophesied, tell me when it happened. An event of that magnitude would have been earth shaking so when did it happen?

When every "later writer" prophesied the imminent coming of the Lord or the end of the age, why continue to ignore them?

Would a biblical event described in figurative terms literally shake the entire planet?

No! The context was covenant Israel, not planet earth.

The writer of the book of Hebrews referred back to Mt. Sinai:
"For you have not come to the mountain that may be touched and that burned with fire, and to blackness and darkness and tempest" (Heb. 12:18).

But, writing in the present tense:
Hebrews 12:22 "But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,

23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

25 See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven,

26 whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, "Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also heaven."

27 Now this, "Yet once more," indicates the removal of those things that are being shaken, as of things that are made, that the things which cannot be shaken may remain.

28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear.

29 For our God is a consuming fire.

The shaking of heaven and earth was not an unprecedented event:
Haggai 2:5 'According to the word that I covenanted with you when you came out of Egypt, so My Spirit remains among you; do not fear!'

6 "For thus says the LORD of hosts: 'Once more (it is a little while) I will shake heaven and earth, the sea and dry land;

7 'and I will shake all nations, and they shall come to the Desire of All Nations, and I will fill this temple with glory,' says the LORD of hosts.

8 'The silver is Mine, and the gold is Mine,' says the LORD of hosts.

9 'The glory of this latter temple shall be greater than the former,' says the LORD of hosts. 'And in this place I will give peace,' says the LORD of hosts."

God said He would shake heaven and earth again! This event was portrayed as imminent by the prophet. The goal of this event was to fill the second temple with glory even greater than the former which was destroyed by Babylon.

Hebrews is about the first century transfer of covenantal kingdoms. The Old Covenant kingdom was about to come to an end. All associated with it would be destroyed by fire. The shaking and removal of that kingdom was described in terms of the shaking of heaven and earth, the removal of things being shaken.


Jesus had become the mediator of the New Covenant. Those believers living during the transition period were in the process of receiving a kingdom made of things which cannot be shaken. They were being built up into a temple that would surpass the glory of both previous temples. Jesus Himself would be the Cornerstone of this eternal temple, the dwelling place of God.

As the terminal generation of Old Covenant Israel moved closer to the time of the end of her age, AD 70, the faithful remnant was witnessing "all these things" spoken of by Jesus in the Olivet Discourse.





 
Upvote 0

Chicken Little

Well-Known Member
Jun 11, 2010
1,341
288
mid-Americauna
✟3,163.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
well there is a blessing for reading the book of REV. there is no blessing stated for thinking we understand it ..
so since that is the case we should read it and read it and read it and read it and read other books and chapter and read it and read it .......;P
 
Upvote 0

A New World

Member
May 21, 2014
455
82
CA
✟8,451.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
well there is a blessing for reading the book of REV. there is no blessing stated for thinking we understand it ..
so since that is the case we should read it and read it and read it and read it and read other books and chapter and read it and read it .......;P

I agree that we should read and re read and study Revelation and all related eschatological Scriptures. But, there's nothing wrong with having a goal of developing an understanding of the context of prophecy in particular and Scripture in general.

I also agree that there were blessings promised to those about to experience the events prophesied for the last days generation (Rev. 1:3). They were also promised judgment for mishandling the words of the book (Rev. 22:18,19).

I don't think the specific blessings or judgments recorded in Revelation extend beyond the days of fulfillment, the first century. If God is currently adding plagues and taking away our part in the Book of Life for adding to or taking away from the words of Revelation EVERYONE of us has major problems.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

A New World

Member
May 21, 2014
455
82
CA
✟8,451.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
you won't figure it out.
just know his words and wait and watch.

I know what you mean sister, but since I believe it's been fulfilled I won't be waiting or watching.

I believe Paul and the first century believers were hoping for the end of the Old Covenant age and the full arrival of the age to come. The OC age ended in AD 70 and we now live in what they understood as the age to come.

For them: "For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope" (Rom. 8:24a)

For us: "for why does one still hope for what he sees?" (Rom. 8:24b)

Just as it is with all truth, some students understand the available evidence better than others. A lot has to do with ones premise and the application of the various rules of interpretation.

If the premise is off the findings will also be off. On the other hand, I believe it's possible to find the proper path and follow it to a more complete and consistent understanding of truth. It's never easy, maybe rarely achieved, but I believe it's possible.
 
Upvote 0

Chicken Little

Well-Known Member
Jun 11, 2010
1,341
288
mid-Americauna
✟3,163.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
I know what you mean sister, but since I believe it's been fulfilled I won't be waiting or watching.

I believe Paul and the first century believers were hoping for the end of the Old Covenant age and the full arrival of the age to come. The OC age ended in AD 70 and we now live in what they understood as the age to come.

For them: "For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope" (Rom. 8:24a)

For us: "for why does one still hope for what he sees?" (Rom. 8:24b)

Just as it is with all truth, some students understand the available evidence better than others. A lot has to do with ones premise and the application of the various rules of interpretation.

If the premise is off the findings will also be off. On the other hand, I believe it's possible to find the proper path and follow it to a more complete and consistent understanding of truth. It's never easy, maybe rarely achieved, but I believe it's possible.
those other partial fulfillments are more proof there is yet more to come. his word is alive!
so are you going to be a virgin with no oil? and sleep because you think you already made it and there is nothing else he may need from you or for you to do ? the default position is outside , maybe because dying and suffering takes no preparation and no obedience or faithfulness either .
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

A New World

Member
May 21, 2014
455
82
CA
✟8,451.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
those other partial fulfillments are more proof there is yet more to come. his word is alive!
so are you going to be a virgin with no oil? and sleep because you think you already made it and there is nothing else he may need from you or for you to do ? the default position is outside , maybe because dying and suffering takes no preparation and no obedience or faithfulness either .

As I read the NT I see no evidence of an anticipation of a partial fulfillment. James told his audience, the twelve tribes scattered abroad, that the coming of the Lord was near, the Judge was, at that time, standing at the door (James 5:7-9).

I believe we are now living in what they thought of as the age to come. We are under the New Covenant, new creations in Christ, and we will never die.

The first century audiences were living in a unique time in redemption history. It's been referred to as "the already, but not yet." By faith, they were experiencing the blessings of the age to come. But, they were living in the shadow of the Mosaic age though it would soon disappear (Heb. 8:13). The New Covenant age would be fully established once the old age ended. Jesus, and every NT writer, posited the end of the age in their generation. They eagerly awaited the age to come.

I don't consider myself asleep since I believe I live in the light of truth. Obedience and faithfulness follow from a heart of gratitude for all He accomplished. I'm thankful to Him for keeping His promises exactly WHEN He and His apostles said He would.

My response is not to think I "already made it and there is nothing else he may need from you or for you to do." My understanding is that He did the work I couldn't do so I can live a life of liberty, loving Him, loving my neighbor, and being thankful to Him.
 
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
28,576
6,063
EST
✟992,249.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
. . . Please allow the logic to enter your mind so we don't have to continue to repeat ourselves. This is just as frustrating for me.
Jesus coming in the clouds and the language of cosmic upheaval finds its precedent in the Old Testament prophets.

Isaiah prophesied:
"For the stars of heaven and their constellations Will not give their light; The sun will be darkened in its going forth, And the moon will not cause its light to shine" (Is. 13:10).

This was figurative language related to the judgment on Babylon and the transition of kingdoms from Babylon to the Medes.

Were you there? How do you know what did/did not appear to the Babylonians 2700 years +/- ago? God made His presence known many ways in the OT, column of fire, pillar of smoke, burning bush, the sun going back, provided swarms of quail, etc. The stars of heaven, constellations, the sun, the moon, that sounds like astrology to me. Do you know where astrology originated? Babylon! Isa 13:10 could be God telling the Babylonians that their astrology would no longer provide them guidance.

"The burden against Egypt. Behold, the LORD rides on a swift cloud, And will come into Egypt; The idols of Egypt will totter at His presence, And the heart of Egypt will melt in its midst" (Is. 19:1).

This is another example of fulfilled figurative judgment language.

Those living at that time witnessed the fulfillment of Isaiah's prophecies. Did they see the actual stars, sun, and moon darkened? No! Did they see a physical manifestation of God riding a literal cloud? No!

But, did they witness the judgment on Babylon and Egypt? Yes, absolutely! Though the evidence does not satisfy the modern futurists among us, they were nevertheless eyewitnesses of the fulfillment of Isaiah's prophecies. . . .

Once again were you there? You don't know what the Egyptians did/did not see. Here is Isaiah 19:1 in the Targum Isaiah.
.
Chapter XIX.
1 The burden of the cup of cursing to MAKE THE EGYPTIANS TO DRINK. Behold, the Lord is revealed in the cloud of His glory, to take vengeance of the Egyptians ; and the idols of the Egyptians shall be broken before His face, and the heart of the Egyptians shall be melted within them.






 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

A New World

Member
May 21, 2014
455
82
CA
✟8,451.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Were you there? How do you know what did/did not appear to the Babylonians 2700 years +/- ago? God made His presence known many ways in the OT, column of fire, pillar of smoke, burning bush, the sun going back, provided swarms of quail, etc. The stars of heaven, constellations, the sun, the moon, that sounds like astrology to me. Do you know where astrology originated? Babylon!

Thanks for sharing your opinion of what "that sounds like" to you.
All we have is what is recorded in Scripture. You may believe the language is describing literal events but, were you there?

Isa 13:10 could be God telling the Babylonians that their astrology would no longer provide them guidance.

Could be I guess. But, as I read the text itself I find:

The reason for the prophecy
Isaiah 13:1 "The burden against Babylon which Isaiah the son of Amoz saw."

The details of the prophecy which included cosmic language
Isaiah 13:1-16

The nation God would use to carry out His judgment
Isaiah 13:17 "Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them..."

This leads me to the logical conclusion that God followed a similar pattern evident in other prophecies. Cosmic language describing judgment, and in this case the transfer of power from one kingdom to another.

Re: Isaiah 19:1- Once again were you there? You don't know what the Egyptians did/did not see. Here is Isaiah 19:1 in the Targum Isaiah.
.
Chapter XIX.
1 The burden of the cup of cursing to MAKE THE EGYPTIANS TO DRINK. Behold, the Lord is revealed in the cloud of His glory, to take vengeance of the Egyptians ; and the idols of the Egyptians shall be broken before His face, and the heart of the Egyptians shall be melted within them.

No, we were not there. No modern interpreter knows what the Egyptians did/did not see. We can compare Scripture with Scripture and know that God appearing to man in a cloud has symbolized judgment. It would be foolish for anyone to deny the use of this type of figurative language in Scripture.

We know Egypt experienced God's judgment. But, we also know the cup from which the Egyptians drank was not a literal cup, and human hearts didn't literally melt.

It's doesn't seem to be that difficult to understand that the use of cosmic language that appears to some to be literal is actually describing the end of a kingdom or empire.​
 
Upvote 0