Honest Questions

[Zoness]

I come here as a seeker and intend no discourse of harm or attacking to anyone, but I do have questions. If you don't feel right answering them without argument, please don't answer.

Some background: I was raised Catholic but never really took an interest in God or the church when I was young (Catechism is really ineffective at the ages they teach it, imo) My parents got a divorce when I was ten and now eight years later my dad is a Baptist (he came to God a few years ago, before he wasn't a believer) and my Mom is a devout Catholic. About a year ago I seen that I really didn't believe in the Catholic church so I stopped attending minus the times that I had to, I just seen so many conflicts and too much relating to politics. I don't believe in a strict baptist view of Christianity nor a strict Catholic view, I am seeking other churches and have found many that I like but my Mom and I had an argument today because of my departing the Catholic church some time ago, I'm trying to make sense of reasons to stay and if they convict me to. So onto the questions...

**I apologize I know you get these questions a lot but I have some basic ones**

1. Mary -- Why is Mary considered a co-redemptrix in the church? I know she was chosen by God to bear Jesus, but she didn't die to save us all from damnnation. Now, I know a lot of people will say that she isn't considered a co-redemptrix but then why is she so revered past bearing Jesus? I mean, every church I see is named after her...where is Jesus in this mix?

2. No question about the saints, I can make sense of that one pretty well but I have a slightly different question: If the saints are considered part of the ongoing church in heaven...what are the rest of the people in heaven (or purgatory)? Chopped liver? Are you kicked out of the heavenly church if you didn't live a godly enough life on earth and were recognized for it?

3. The next question is about the Pope, I don't have a problem with the Pope, leaders are good but I do have a problem with listening to everything he says and taking it as the exact spoken word of God and that he can't be wrong about anything. What if I disagree with him? Does that make me a bad Catholic? What about disagreeing with any of the Bishops?

4. Are you a bad Catholic if you believe that other churches are just as Christian and are not damned?

I have more questions but I don't want to overdo the OP. Thanks for your time.

 

[Fish and Bread]

1. Mary -- Why is Mary considered a co-redemptrix in the church? I know she was chosen by God to bear Jesus, but she didn't die to save us all from damnnation. Now, I know a lot of people will say that she isn't considered a co-redemptrix but then why is she so revered past bearing Jesus? I mean, every church I see is named after her...where is Jesus in this mix?

Christ is the sole mediator of salvation. Mary works with him as an important part of God's plan to bring about the redemption of people, but isn't strictly necessary to it's accomplishment, which was in the most important sense done on the cross by Jesus himself. The idea is that many Christians are co-workers with God, not strictly necessary, but helpful. Because Mary is a co-worker in a special sense, the idea is that she gets a unique spiffier title than the average person when it comes to this subject.

I truthfully am glad that they didn't decide to dogmatize the co-redemptrix concept. It's unnecessarily confusing and can give people the wrong idea. A literal rendering of the title in English makes people think that Catholics believe that Jesus an Mary are splitting redemption 50-50, which is not what the Church teaches.

2. No question about the saints, I can make sense of that one pretty well but I have a slightly different question: If the saints are considered part of the ongoing church in heaven...what are the rest of the people in heaven (or purgatory)? Chopped liver? Are you kicked out of the heavenly church if you didn't live a godly enough life on earth and were recognized for it?

Lots of people are probably in heaven who aren't formally recognized Saints. People are recognized as Saints formally with the idea that their lives and teachings can be an example for others, and that it is appropriate to pray to them and so forth. But there are lots of people of just as much saintly virtue, who are just as much in heaven, who no one has ever heard about.

3. The next question is about the Pope, I don't have a problem with the Pope, leaders are good but I do have a problem with listening to everything he says and taking it as the exact spoken word of God and that he can't be wrong about anything. What if I disagree with him? Does that make me a bad Catholic? What about disagreeing with any of the Bishops?

Catholics are supposed to adhere to formal Church teachings, dogma and doctrine, plus obey formal Church instructions (like fish on Fridays during Lent), called discipline. However, that doesn't mean anyone has to agree with personal opinions expressed by Popes or bishops, so long as those opinions don't fall into one of those three formal categories, Catholics are free to respectfully disagree. Sorting out what is and isn't in one of those categories is a little tricky and takes some time in and background with Catholicism, it's something people get after some exposure and study, but is sort of hard to sucinctly explain.

4. Are you a bad Catholic if you believe that other churches are just as Christian and are not damned?

The answer to that one is kind of complex. The Church of Christ subsists in the Catholic Church, that's the Vatican II language. The idea is that the Catholic Church has the complete graces and teachings that God entrusted to humankind. Through the Catholic Church, some of these graces flow to other Christian communities, to different extents, for example the Baptists have most of the bible and valid baptisms, but are missing the teaching authority of the bishops, the other sacraments, and so on and so forth. Only the Catholic Church is considered to be the total package.

Non-Catholic Christians have the hope of salvation, according to the Catholic Church, but it's more difficult because they don't access to the same grace that the Catholic Church has in the sacraments and so on and so forth. Also, the teaching is that there is no salvation outside the Church, but that applies only to people who know that the Church is true and choose not to join, or who don't actively seek the truth.

I hope that was helpful and that I got most of that right. Keep in mind, long long books have been written on these subjects by people who know a lot more than I do. I'm just trying to give you a quick and dirty summary. If you really want to be sure about something, you might have to go to the source documents and read up on stuff more extensively.

 

[Gwendolyn]

1. Mary -- Why is Mary considered a co-redemptrix in the church? I know she was chosen by God to bear Jesus, but she didn't die to save us all from damnnation. Now, I know a lot of people will say that she isn't considered a co-redemptrix but then why is she so revered past bearing Jesus? I mean, every church I see is named after her...where is Jesus in this mix?

Mary is NOT considered co-redemptrix.

Asking about the co-redemptrix thing and asking why people revere her are two completely separate questions.

She is not a mere vessel, something easily discarded when its purpose has been fulfilled. People want to treat her like that all the time. Humans are not just "used" for a purpose. They have an inherent dignity given them by God.

Mary was not "merely" the woman who bore Jesus (and I'm sure women all over the world would be upset if people treated them with indifference and told them that they were only respected because they bore a child). She was the first Christian - the first person to fully believe in Christ, to love Him and worship Him. She was entirely obedient to God in all things. She lived her entire life as a prayer, submitting herself to God's will, not her own. That is an honourable feat. So people honour her and ask her to pray that they will be able to be entirely obedient to God, too - just as she was.

The more prayers, the merrier. The prayers of the righteous avail much.

And I do believe that no one will disagree with me when I say that anyone who honours Mary excessively and puts her above Christ is NOT following Christ's wishes - or Mary's. Mary's intention is for us to be led to Christ... just like Jesus desires us to be led to Him. Any Christian would realise that all things are to lead us to Christ.

That isn't a very good response but maybe some of it makes sense. I'm sleepy.

 

[Rhamiel]

2. No question about the saints, I can make sense of that one pretty well but I have a slightly different question: If the saints are considered part of the ongoing church in heaven...what are the rest of the people in heaven (or purgatory)? Chopped liver? Are you kicked out of the heavenly church if you didn't live a godly enough life on earth and were recognized for it?

the Saints are just the saints we know are in heaven, they are also good examples to follow, everybody in heaven is a saint

3. The next question is about the Pope, I don't have a problem with the Pope, leaders are good but I do have a problem with listening to everything he says and taking it as the exact spoken word of God and that he can't be wrong about anything. What if I disagree with him? Does that make me a bad Catholic? What about disagreeing with any of the Bishops?

the authority of the Pope is not over everything, he is only infalible in very narrow circumstances, when he speaks excathdra on matters concerning the faith or morals, now we should still respect him because of the office, and because they are holt and good men (well most of them anyways) but Catholics can dissagree with the Pope, we should be respectful about it, but many of us disagree with him for one thing or another.

4. Are you a bad Catholic if you believe that other churches are just as Christian and are not damned?

hmmm, this is an easy one and a hard one, people who belong to other denominations are Christian, people are Christian, as for other denominations, well we believe they are man made or the result of schism, lol I am making this too complecated, ok, Non-RC Christians can be saved

 

[Rhamiel]

hey brother Zoness, did you see JackLadder started a thread here too? all the reasonable folk from GT are making threads here, before too long I expect to see SunLover and Simonthezealot make threads here too

 

[Zoness]

Well then I will contribute in discussion alongside of more moderate GT posters. No offense, but given the answers you have supplied with me I would say a lot of Catholics (minus this board, we are all exceptions as Christians because we actually discuss these things) grossly misrepresent the church because my Mom gets angry when I don't pray to Mary or the Saints and nobody in the Catholic church evangelizes...it's just one of those things that people don't do. I get invited to Anglican, Baptist, Methodist, Pentecostal services but never a Catholic service hmmm.

Ok some lesser questions this time, I will expound upon the first ones later:

1. What is the official Catholic stance on games like Dungeons and Dragons? I know a lot of really conservative churches claim such games are of the devil and destroy people. I am very offended by that, as a Dungeon Master of 3 years none of my players have shown such signs (bear in mind that I don't have a lot of Christian friends most of them are Wiccans, Pagans or Agnostic but same principle really).

2. Do you have the receive all seven sacraments to be considered a good Catholic? I don't even know if that is possible...because isn't one of them getting married and another becoming a priest? Contradictory, at least in the Catholic church.

3. What is the soteriological stance of the Catholic church? I am always in Calvinist vs. Arminian debates where I am strongly in support of the Arminian position. Where do you stand on all of this?

4. Is there an official end-times stance as well?

Hard to believe I was raised Catholic eh?

 

[JoabAnias]

I will give you some sources where you are guaranteed sound answers that may not always be the case here.

1. Mary -- Why is Mary considered a co-redemptrix in the church? I know she was chosen by God to bear Jesus, but she didn't die to save us all from damnnation. Now, I know a lot of people will say that she isn't considered a co-redemptrix but then why is she so revered past bearing Jesus? I mean, every church I see is named after her...where is Jesus in this mix?

CO-REDEMPTRIX
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary

2. No question about the saints, I can make sense of that one pretty well but I have a slightly different question: If the saints are considered part of the ongoing church in heaven...what are the rest of the people in heaven (or purgatory)? Chopped liver? Are you kicked out of the heavenly church if you didn't live a godly enough life on earth and were recognized for it?

III. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY

3. The next question is about the Pope, I don't have a problem with the Pope, leaders are good but I do have a problem with listening to everything he says and taking it as the exact spoken word of God and that he can't be wrong about anything. What if I disagree with him? Does that make me a bad Catholic? What about disagreeing with any of the Bishops?

Truth Handling and Teaching Authority
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Ex Cathedra
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Tradition and Living Magisterium

4. Are you a bad Catholic if you believe that other churches are just as Christian and are not damned?

Dogma
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Religious Indifferentism
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Religious Toleration
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Union of Christendom
CATHOLIC LIBRARY: Orientalium Ecclesiarum (1964)
CATHOLIC LIBRARY: Orientale Lumen (1995)
CATHOLIC LIBRARY: Ut Unum Sint (1995)

I have more questions but I don't want to overdo the OP. Thanks for your time.

Those sources I gave you should answer almost any question you may have. You might also check the links in the FSG's above in the sticky threads for more.

 

[Rhamiel]

Well then I will contribute in discussion alongside of more moderate GT posters. No offense, but given the answers you have supplied with me I would say a lot of Catholics (minus this board, we are all exceptions as Christians because we actually discuss these things) grossly misrepresent the church because my Mom gets angry when I don't pray to Mary or the Saints and nobody in the Catholic church evangelizes...it's just one of those things that people don't do. I get invited to Anglican, Baptist, Methodist, Pentecostal services but never a Catholic service hmmm.

Ok some lesser questions this time, I will expound upon the first ones later:

1. What is the official Catholic stance on games like Dungeons and Dragons? I know a lot of really conservative churches claim such games are of the devil and destroy people. I am very offended by that, as a Dungeon Master of 3 years none of my players have shown such signs (bear in mind that I don't have a lot of Christian friends most of them are Wiccans, Pagans or Agnostic but same principle really).

2. Do you have the receive all seven sacraments to be considered a good Catholic? I don't even know if that is possible...because isn't one of them getting married and another becoming a priest? Contradictory, at least in the Catholic church.

3. What is the soteriological stance of the Catholic church? I am always in Calvinist vs. Arminian debates where I am strongly in support of the Arminian position. Where do you stand on all of this?

4. Is there an official end-times stance as well?

Hard to believe I was raised Catholic eh?

1, I do not think it would be viewed as sinful, as long as it does not become an obsession or anything

2 Baptism, Confession, Communion, and Confermation are the sacrements that grant full membership into the Church

3 We are saved by grace, that God offers mankind His grace, I would say that the Catholic Church is close to Arminianism, but it is not the same, someone smarter then me can help explaine why

4 yes

 

[JoabAnias]

1. What is the official Catholic stance on games like Dungeons and Dragons? I know a lot of really conservative churches claim such games are of the devil and destroy people. I am very offended by that, as a Dungeon Master of 3 years none of my players have shown such signs (bear in mind that I don't have a lot of Christian friends most of them are Wiccans, Pagans or Agnostic but same principle really).

Think virtues, like prudence and temporance. The CCC says this:

Divination and magic

2115 God can reveal the future to his prophets or to other saints. Still, a sound Christian attitude consists in putting oneself confidently into the hands of Providence for whatever concerns the future, and giving up all unhealthy curiosity about it. Improvidence, however, can constitute a lack of responsibility.

2116 All forms of divination are to be rejected: recourse to Satan or demons, conjuring up the dead or other practices falsely supposed to "unveil" the future.48 Consulting horoscopes, astrology, palm reading, interpretation of omens and lots, the phenomena of clairvoyance, and recourse to mediums all conceal a desire for power over time, history, and, in the last analysis, other human beings, as well as a wish to conciliate hidden powers. They contradict the honor, respect, and loving fear that we owe to God alone.

2117 All practices of magic or sorcery, by which one attempts to tame occult powers, so as to place them at one's service and have a supernatural power over others - even if this were for the sake of restoring their health - are gravely contrary to the virtue of religion. These practices are even more to be condemned when accompanied by the intention of harming someone, or when they have recourse to the intervention of demons. Wearing charms is also reprehensible. Spiritism often implies divination or magical practices; the Church for her part warns the faithful against it. Recourse to so-called traditional cures does not justify either the invocation of evil powers or the exploitation of another's credulity.

2. Do you have the receive all seven sacraments to be considered a good Catholic? I don't even know if that is possible...because isn't one of them getting married and another becoming a priest? Contradictory, at least in the Catholic church.

Correct. Baptism is what makes one Catholic. What makes one a good Catholic is following the precepts of the Church. The five precepts can be found at the very bottom of the compendium of the CCC here: http://www.vatican.va/archive/compendium_ccc/documents/archive_2005_compendium-ccc_en.html

3. What is the soteriological stance of the Catholic church? I am always in Calvinist vs. Arminian debates where I am strongly in support of the Arminian position. Where do you stand on all of this?
4. Is there an official end-times stance as well?

See: Amillenialism
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Dogmatic Theology
The Rapture.
to answer both questions 3, and 4.

Some other answers I ran into that apply to your previous questions as well:

http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2007/10/topical-index-pages.html
http://www.catholic.com/library/church_papacy.asp
http://www.catholic.com/library/scripture_tradition.asp
http://www.catholic.com/library/mary_saints.asp
http://www.catholic.com/library/Apologist_Bookshelf.asp

Hard to believe I was raised Catholic eh?

No not really. We all start somewhere and its not usually with what were told but what we seek to find out for ourselves.

 

[JacksLadder]

1. What is the official Catholic stance on games like Dungeons and Dragons? I know a lot of really conservative churches claim such games are of the devil and destroy people. I am very offended by that, as a Dungeon Master of 3 years none of my players have shown such signs (bear in mind that I don't have a lot of Christian friends most of them are Wiccans, Pagans or Agnostic but same principle really).

I'm a gamer(I still do game too but realize how easily gaming can control your life). I also dabbled in Wicca(1 Year).

 

[JacksLadder]

hey brother Zoness, did you see JackLadder started a thread here too? all the reasonable folk from GT are making threads here, before too long I expect to see SunLover and Simonthezealot make threads here too

I am reasonable yay!

 

[Rhamiel]

I'm a gamer(I still do game too but realize how easily gaming can control your life). I also dabbled in Wicca(1 Year).

Jack, Zoness, next time we get in a debate in GT I am just going to call both of you nerds j/k

 

[Gwendolyn]

Catholics do not go around inviting random people to Mass because we do not believe that this is some sort of body-count. More people at Mass does not necessarily mean that things are going swell. God moves hearts, and we believe that if He needs us, we will be there to help those who have questions and curiosities. Yes, preaching the Gospel is important - but we do not always preach with words and invitations.

1. What is the official Catholic stance on games like Dungeons and Dragons? I know a lot of really conservative churches claim such games are of the devil and destroy people. I am very offended by that, as a Dungeon Master of 3 years none of my players have shown such signs (bear in mind that I don't have a lot of Christian friends most of them are Wiccans, Pagans or Agnostic but same principle really).

Use prudence. If ANYTHING causes you to turn away from Christ, even gently or gradually slip away, then it is not a good influence in your life. We are to glorify God in all things. If it is merely a fun thing to do, then why would it be any different than reading a fantasy novel? But if it becomes something more - an obsession, compulsion, occupying most of your time (either in thinking, planning, or playing)... then it is not a positive force in your life. Or worse, if it begins encouraging you to believe non-Christian things and become interested in magick or contacting the dead, then it is a dark force in your life that you should walk away from.

2. Do you have the receive all seven sacraments to be considered a good Catholic? I don't even know if that is possible...because isn't one of them getting married and another becoming a priest? Contradictory, at least in the Catholic church.

No. You must receive baptism and confirmation. Eucharist is also strongly encouraged (though, for example, there may be infants who are baptised/confirmed shortly before death, without being able to receive the Eucharist). The Eucharist is the source and summit of our spiritual life as Catholics. Baptism initiates one into the Body of Christ; Confirmation confirms the graces received at baptism, and unleashes the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Confession is a necessary as well, because we are not to partake of the Eucharist unworthily - ie, with mortal sin on our souls or an otherwise brudened mind, heart, and soul. You do not have to get married or ordained in order to be a good Catholic. You don't even have to receive the anointing of the sick - though Catholics tend to like receiving one "version", the Last Rites, shortly before death.

 

[Zoness]

Jack, Zoness, next time we get in a debate in GT I am just going to call both of you nerds j/k

Haha ok bring it

Catholics do not go around inviting random people to Mass because we do not believe that this is some sort of body-count. More people at Mass does not necessarily mean that things are going swell. God moves hearts, and we believe that if He needs us, we will be there to help those who have questions and curiosities. Yes, preaching the Gospel is important - but we do not always preach with words and invitations.

Ok I understand that definitely but still...we are supposed to go forth and preach in the world and have people come to church. Mind you, maybe that's the kettle calling the pot black because I get really irritated when evangelists bug me about going to church I can't imagine having Catholics do it too lol jk But yeah, ok.

Next question: How does the RCC feel about people reading the Bible? I know that they like to keep dogma very lockstep and don't allow for a lot of personal thinking on established church doctrine (which includes just about everything) how relevant is Biblical knowledge or lack thereof?

 

[Fish and Bread]

1. What is the official Catholic stance on games like Dungeons and Dragons?

The Catholic Church has no official stance on games like that. Some Catholics feel strongly that they are bad, others are fine with them, or even really like them. You'll hear all sorts of different opinions. But I've never seen anything official.

Joab posted some good information about actual attempts to call on spirits and predict the future and stuff, but Dungeons and Dragons doesn't involve any of that as far as I know, except maybe in a fictional context where the player's character does something, like in a video game or a movie, which is different.

2. Do you have the receive all seven sacraments to be considered a good Catholic?

Nope. Baptism, reconciliation, the Eucharist, and confirmation are the ones Catholics ordinarily receive. Ordination, marriage, and anointing of the sick are only for people who are becoming clergy, getting married, or who are really sick and/or dying.

3. What is the soteriological stance of the Catholic church? I am always in Calvinist vs. Arminian debates where I am strongly in support of the Arminian position. Where do you stand on all of this?

Catholics are essentially Arminian. You won't hear that term a lot in Catholic circles, because a Protestant came up with it as part of a debate going between Protestants, but that is what most closely matches the Catholic understanding (Perhaps with very subtle differences).

4. Is there an official end-times stance as well?

Christ will come again. That's the primary gist of it.

Oh, and Catholics don't believe in the rapture.

Hard to believe I was raised Catholic eh?

Nah. It's fairly common that folks don't know their faith in depth. It's not just with Catholics either. I once dated a Lutheran who insisted Jesus was just a man and that that's what Lutherans believe (Obviously Lutherans don't really believe that), and was shocked when I said he was God and explained the trinity -- she made me find the information on the Internet to prove to her that Lutherans really believed that.

Next question: How does the RCC feel about people reading the Bible? I know that they like to keep dogma very lockstep and don't allow for a lot of personal thinking on established church doctrine (which includes just about everything) how relevant is Biblical knowledge or lack thereof?

Bible reading is highly encouraged, especially after Vatican II. There was some concern back several centuries ago that the laity (a term for non-clergy, basically the average guy and gal in the pews) might misunderstand scripture and get confused, but nowadays things are different.

Of course, people aren't supposed to take the bible and then make up their own religion based on it, though. They are supposed to understand it according to the mind of the Church. The Church selected which books were in and out of the bible a long time ago, members of the Church wrote the bible, and so forth, so in a way the bible is a document of the Church. The idea in Catholicism is that traditions, scriptures, and the leadership of the Pope and the bishops are all very closely interrelated and are to be understood in context with one another.

I think you have a background in Anglicanism, right? Anglicans have a three-legged stool of scripture, reason, and tradition. Catholics have three similar sources -- scripture, tradition, and magisterium (i.e. the Pope and the bishops).

 

[benedictaoo]

In case no one answered you Zone about the souls in purgatory... they are part of the Church as well. We all make up the Church. We are the Church militant- (making our way). They are the Church suffering and the Saints are the Church triumphant. We can all pray and interceded of one another.

 

[benedictaoo]

Next question: How does the RCC feel about people reading the Bible? I know that they like to keep dogma very lockstep and don't allow for a lot of personal thinking on established church doctrine (which includes just about everything) how relevant is Biblical knowledge or lack thereof?

St Jerome said, ignorence of scripture is ignorence of Christ.

 

[Zoness]

The Catholic Church has no official stance on games like that. Some Catholics feel strongly that they are bad, others are fine with them, or even really like them. You'll hear all sorts of different opinions. But I've never seen anything official.

Joab posted some good information about actual attempts to call on spirits and predict the future and stuff, but Dungeons and Dragons doesn't involve any of that as far as I know, except maybe in a fictional context where the player's character does something, like in a video game or a movie, which is different.

Nope. Baptism, reconciliation, the Eucharist, and confirmation are the ones Catholics ordinarily receive. Ordination, marriage, and anointing of the sick are only for people who are becoming clergy, getting married, or who are really sick and/or dying.

Catholics are essentially Arminian. You won't hear that term a lot in Catholic circles, because a Protestant came up with it as part of a debate going between Protestants, but that is what most closely matches the Catholic understanding (Perhaps with very subtle differences).

Christ will come again. That's the primary gist of it.

Oh, and Catholics don't believe in the rapture.

Nah. It's fairly common that folks don't know their faith in depth. It's not just with Catholics either. I once dated a Lutheran who insisted Jesus was just a man and that that's what Lutherans believe (Obviously Lutherans don't really believe that), and was shocked when I said he was God and explained the trinity -- she made me find the information on the Internet to prove to her that Lutherans really believed that.



Bible reading is highly encouraged, especially after Vatican II. There was some concern back several centuries ago that the laity (a term for non-clergy, basically the average guy and gal in the pews) might misunderstand scripture and get confused, but nowadays things are different.

Of course, people aren't supposed to take the bible and then make up their own religion based on it, though. They are supposed to understand it according to the mind of the Church. The Church selected which books were in and out of the bible a long time ago, members of the Church wrote the bible, and so forth, so in a way the bible is a document of the Church. The idea in Catholicism is that traditions, scriptures, and the leadership of the Pope and the bishops are all very closely interrelated and are to be understood in context with one another.

I think you have a background in Anglicanism, right? Anglicans have a three-legged stool of scripture, reason, and tradition. Catholics have three similar sources -- scripture, tradition, and magisterium (i.e. the Pope and the bishops).

Yes I have much Anglican influence, I guess the best description of me at present is an Anglo-Methodist Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions so far, thanks to all of you.

 

[Zoness]

In case no one answered you Zone about the souls in purgatory... they are part of the Church as well. We all make up the Church. We are the Church militant- (making our way). They are the Church suffering and the Saints are the Church triumphant. We can all pray and interceded of one another.

Thank you for clarifying.

 

[NewMan99]

I would like to clarify a little more the Catholic position on the whole Calvinism vs. Arminian question.

One needs to understand the spectrum of the debate on grace and how grace operates in terms of justification (salvation). In this spectrum, the Calvinist concern (which is a very 2-dimensional and self-contradictory concern, imo) seeks to uphold the truth (and it is a truth) that all credit and glory for a person's justification belongs to Christ alone. And we Catholics actually agree with this. However, Calvinists take their preoccupation with this one aspect of the truth too far --that is, to the extent that they end up denying other aspects of the truth. In this, we should remember Bishop Sheen's old maxim that "All heresies are true. The only problem is that they stress one truth AT THE EXPENSE of other truths." This is precisely what Calvinism does.

Now, Calvinism's first mistake (indeed, the first mistake of Protestantism itself) is that it confuses Catholic doctrine with Pelagian doctrine. Pelagianism (a 4th Century heresy) of course taught that a man can save himself (without God's grace) by his free choice to imitate the righteousness of Christ. Catholicism (following the theology worked out by St. Augustine) has always bitterly denied this view. Rather, we maintain that God's grace, and GOD'S GRACE ALONE, can justify a person. We can never justify ourselves by our own free choice, no matter how hard we try.

Rather, to properly understand the spectrum of the different views, we must understand that there are essentially four different positions. These are the Pelagian position; the Catholic position; the Calvinist position; and the Arminian (or semi-Pelagian) position. The Arminian position (which is the position of almost all non-Calvinist Evangelicals, as well as the Baptists and Assembly of God) is named after the Protestant reformer Jacobus Arminius, who formulated his theology in reaction to the extreme view of John Calvin; but, lacking a sense of Catholic balance, he just ended up preaching semi-Pelagianism. And here are the differences between the various positions (in their order of extremes):

1) Pelagianism -- A man can save himself by freely choosing to obey Christ and imitate His righteousness.

2) Arminianism (or semi-Pelagianism) -- A man can only be saved by the grace of God in Christ Jesus. BUT, accepting this grace (this free gift of salvation) is a total exercise of the man's free will.

3) Catholicism -- A man can only be saved by the grace of God in Christ Jesus. And while the man must accept this grace (this free offer of salvation) as an exercise of his own free will, EVEN HIS FREE ACCEPTANCE OF THE GRACE OF SALVATION is by the grace of God, without which he would not be able to accept it!!

4) Calvinism --Christ does it all, and free will is not involved at all. In fact, free will does not really exist. Not only is a man saved by the grace of God in Christ Jesus, but it is GOD ALONE Who decides who will accept salvation and who will reject Divine grace and be condemned. Human choice is not involved. In fact, the grace of God is not even given to those who God has chosen to go to hell. Rather, God created some people with the expressed purpose of sending them to hell, and this cannot be avoided.

I can understand why many people think that Catholicism is somewhat akin to Arminianism, but in reality it is not. We are neither Arminian nor Calvinist, although we embrace the Truths that each side proclaims while, conversely, rejecting the extreme and exclusionary views that both espouse. With Catholicism, it's all about balance.

Hope that helps.

God's Peace,

NewMan