Homosexuality, marriage and the family

[mpshiel]

Maccie,

I am so sorry that you feel angry. Not long ago I had a family death and the grief is also so terrible, but it never changed anything about what SLStrohkirch wrote. In fact such things were an encouragement to me as nothing could console me except the hope of glory in Jesus Christ of the Kingdom of Heaven where there are no more tears and no more death and suffering. I pray that God will strengthen and encourage you and bring healing. God Bless you Maccie.

Interesting isn't it how the same words can have a different effect on different people. I think that is why like Jesus we need to tailor our speech to the person we are speaking to, not just our own personality.

For years I would get very angry when someone would tell me that I should look forward to the kingdom or that I would live forever. At the time, I wasn't interested in living at all. The only thing that kept me from committing suicide was the total believe in God and the ressurection (as in the next conscious instant after I killed myself, I would be with God so that wouldn't really solve anything as if he was unwilling to answer my prayer that he "unmake me" on earth - it would be unlikely he would change his mind later). So in this frame of mind, having people harp on about "living forever" was the closest I could imagine hell to be. Nor was the idea that God would give me a giant lobotomy so I wouldnt be able to feel anything but happiness much of a comfort either.

My motto was that of others in the circumstance (which is why I also detest the words "healed" and "brokenness") - survive. Survive today. Survive tomorrow. Survive this hour. Hold on the the hope, not of the kingdom but that God somehow understands me and that there is a future worth my fighting for. People who walk around leaving trails of blood behind them don't need to be told they are broken.

I don't know if my experience will help you understand, Ahab. There were people who helped me during that time, but they were the ones who came up beside me - one person didn't say anything at all, just gave me a mini truck with the words "keep trucking" on it. I wish I knew enough about maccie to help, but I don't. It does seem that she is still willing to reach out, to take chances. So, lets not blow this by telling her what she SHOULD feel.

 

[Treasure the Questions]

As to the 'marred' image of God? I thought God is love. Do you mean Satan and evil as marred? Sorry but I need to test this can you give some of God’s word, some scripture, to help me understand explain this as It sounds false to me.

Please read what I wrote: the marred image of God within us. We are all made in the image of God, but that image has been marred by sin. I explained it more fully in an earlier post.

Very new indeed Karin. So you say we are redeemed and being redeemed at the same time. Well which? I agree with you that we need to remain in Christ Jesus to receive that redemption but the redemption has already happened. You still havent addressed any of the scripture I quoted. Why?

Surely this concept is not new to you, even if I describe it in different language from that to which you are accustomed. It is the same thing as being transformeded by the renewing of our minds. (Romans 12:2)

One meaning of "redeem" is to restore the honor, worth, or reputation of someone or something.

When Jesus redeems us he does a number of things. Some are completed, such as setting us free from the power of sin and its consequences (although we continue to sin) and restoring us in a right relationship with the Father, but redeeming our innate goodness and the image of God within us takes much longer.

As we learn to think more like Jesus we begin to show a greater likeness to him and exhibit more of the fruit of the Spirit, which is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness,gentleness, and self-control. In this way the image of God in us is restored. It is Jesus, or Holy Spirit, working within us that brings about this transformation and renewal.

 

[ahab]

Hi Karin,

Anyone who has a loving relationship with the Lord Jesus will want to please him most of the time.

I want to please Him all the time. I know I most certainly fail to please Him all the time, but I still want to.

We are to encourage and build up our fellow Christians and leave conviction of sin to the Holy Spirit.

I agree.

Jesus never called us to go around pointing out people's sins continually and the anonimity of a message board is not an excuse to do so.

Karin, the Bible isn’t a manual to be followed literally without any thinking. Jesus does instruct us as disciples to preach the good news Mark 16:15 with all the signs and wonders, to baptise in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and make disciples who obey all Jesus commanded Matthew 28:20 and also to preach repentance and forgiveness of sins in His name to all nations. Luke 24:47. But this is a Chrsitian only area of the forum.
Who is pointing out peoples sins on this thread? Surely As Christians in a Christian only part of the forum I would have thought we have received the assurance of our salvation to be able to discuss all that Jesus said. I am not aware that anyone is pointing out anyone else’s?

I am quite capable of reading exactly what Scripture says, but the thing is to discern how to interpret what we read.

But that’s exactly not what I was saying Karin! Does the New Testament talk about having been redeemed or about being /in the process of redeemed? I even gave you an example of what scripture says to us about the consequence of our redemption.

First of all, I wasn't referring to redemption in this instance. This was a comment refering to your comments in general.

My comments were backed up with scriptures.

Secondly, you usually put your own particular spin on anything you do quote.

Karin the issue is that you are not backing up your comments with the scriptures at all regardless that we may all ‘spin’ it. Are you not putting your ‘spin’ on things as well?

Of course Jesus doesn't disagree with himself. I would say you misunderstand what Jesus says in some instances.

Well I may but with respect Karin it was the scripture that I quoted, not my spin on, and you said Jesus would disagree with it, unless you mean that you find what the scripture that is written ‘spin’ itself?

I quote the Bible and you quote Martyn Joseph???!!

 

[Treasure the Questions]

Maccie,

I am so sorry that you feel angry. Not long ago I had a family death and the grief is also so terrible, but it never changed anything about what SLStrohkirch wrote. In fact such things were an encouragement to me as nothing could console me except the hope of glory in Jesus Christ of the Kingdom of Heaven where there are no more tears and no more death and suffering. I pray that God will strengthen and encourage you and bring healing. God Bless you Maccie.

I'm still trying to work out how what you have written here has any bearing on what Maccie has said.

It shows precious little sign of sorrow or concern for what Maccie feels, either.

What you seem to fail to understand ahab is that this experience was a personal one based on your beliefs and experiences. It's quite wrong of you to say that because you are a Christian then in this situation, because I thought x and felt y, then all Christians should feel and think the same as me in the same situation.

As far as the death of a loved one is concerned, perhaps they did not obviously have faith in Christ. Would you have felt the same under such circumstances?

Life is a journey and where we are on the journey will influence how we deal with different experiences. The experiences we have will also influence how we deal with other experiences further on on the journey.

 

[Treasure the Questions]

I quote the Bible and you quote Martyn Joseph???!!

Not, as a rule, in my posts. Not in any recent post. What point are you trying to make? Methinks you are clutching at straws.

I quote whoever seems relevant. I often refer to scripture but don't think it often helpful to refer to it verbatim.

My comments were backed up with scriptures.

You think the scriptures you quote back up your point of view. This is not always the case. I find this practise is often unhelpful.

Scripture alone is not the answer. We have to know what the scripture should mean to us today. Understanding, reason, learning from others all sorts of other things are necessary.

 

[ahab]

Hi Mpshiel,

Interesting isn't it how the same words can have a different effect on different people. I think that is why like Jesus we need to tailor our speech to the person we are speaking to, not just our own personality.

I agree but the word of God is the word of God and so if it encourages people as well as upsets it is still the word of God. We wouldnt want not to quote the word of God on a Christian only forum would we?

May I suggest that you seek the support and prayer from your church/pastor and fellowship rather than discuss personal issues on a General Theology Christian only forum if you find the word of God and its discussion too painful. I pray that God will bless you and encourage you and Maccie and heal you. He is a mighty loving God.
God's blessings to you Mpshiel.

 

[Treasure the Questions]

mpshiel said I think that is why like Jesus we need to tailor our speech to the person we are speaking to, not just our own personality.

Once again it seems that you only read part of what people say. You pick and choose what suits you. Perhaps you do this with the Bible, too.

You show no concern for the feelings of others.

Are you aware that Christ was most unimpressed by hyprocrisy? You say you are "so sorry", yet show no sign of concern.

You call me "dear friend", yet I'm sure I am not at all dear to you. Whether we are freinds is debatable: certainly not in the usual sense of the word, but I do have respect for the Quakers who call each other friend.

I have decided enough is enough.

The subject is way off topic and is best brought to a close.

I shall put you on my ignore list and draw a line under all this as far as I am concerned.

____________________________________________________________________​

 

[mpshiel]

Hi Mpshiel,

I agree but the word of God is the word of God and so if it encourages people as well as upsets it is still the word of God. We wouldnt want not to quote the word of God on a Christian only forum would we?

The word of God is a tool and like any tool, it depends on how it is used.

I Cor 8:1-2 - "we know that we have knowledge, knowledge puffs up but love edifies"
I Cor 13:2 - "And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could move mountians, and have not charity (love), I am nothing."

Charity or love is where one puts down a personal life for another - putting the other ahead of ourselves. If one section of scripture pains and another sooths at different times, where is the problem in soothing?

Even Jesus reached a point where he told his friends, "My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death" (matt 26:38)

And when we consider Jesus's words, Matt 18:6 - but who shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Woe unto the world becasue of offenses! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom offenses comes." - it would seem that a Christian would want to take extra care in using thier words.

May I suggest that you seek the support and prayer from your church/pastor and fellowship rather than discuss personal issues on a General Theology Christian only forum if you find the word of God and its discussion too painful. I pray that God will bless you and encourage you and Maccie and heal you. He is a mighty loving God.
God's blessings to you Mpshiel.

May I suggest that the quoting of scripture and the analysis of this or that point is but dry wind without the colour and complexity of life to add to them. If you wish scripture to live, they have to live in people - human mortal people with issues, problems and difficulties. Life is General Theology.

 

[ahab]

Hi Karin,

I quote whoever seems relevant. I often refer to scripture but don't think it often helpful to refer to it verbatim.

Yes I know.

You think the scriptures you quote back up your point of view.

Still not quite what I have been saying. I am saying that we can receive revelation of God from God’s word and I would test anything from you or Martyn Joseph against the scriptures to see if it is from the Holy Spirit; and I would hope you would do the same with what I write. But I wouldn’t test it against Martyn Joseph.

Scripture alone is not the answer. We have to know what the scripture should mean to us today. Understanding, reason, learning from others all sorts of other things are necessary.

Yes we have to know what the scripture means, thats what I meant by God revealing His will and purpose to us through His word by the Holy Spirit... what is your point?

As to the thread, we know what God’s purpose for a family is from Jesus and the scriptures, in that a man and woman are to be joined faithfully in marriage. We can tell from the NT that a husband should honour and love and respect his wife, even her body, as it it we his own and the same respect should be accorded from the wife to the husband. We can see therefore that any malice, deceipt, slander and false testimony, drunkeness debauchery etc has no place in God’s purpose for marriage, that we honour our parents etc as well. Where we fall short and repent God will forgive us. For some getting married will not happen and celibacy is also God’s blessing for various reasons, although it can be very hard for those who wish to marry and never do or never can. Marriage is also quite a challenge. It means being even less selfish, considerate and sharing and the ability to work through issues and hardships and tough times. However sexual immorality has no place either, lust adultery and any other sex outside the marriage, including homosexual practice as that isnt part of marriage.

 

[ahab]

Hi Mpshiel,

May I suggest that the quoting of scripture and the analysis of this or that point is but dry wind without the colour and complexity of life to add to them. If you wish scripture to live, they have to live in people - human mortal people with issues, problems and difficulties. Life is General Theology.

Yes I think I agree with your there. Perhaps you did not understand that is what I meant when I paraphrased that the word of God is living and active and divides soul and spirit. The Holy Spirit lives in us and we are living with the complexities of life. You seem focussed on the soul aspects, the spiritual aspect is that Christ has redeemed us, the soulish aspect is that we dont always feel that. Surely we need to recognise both as they are the truth. Jesus never avioded telling people the truth even when they found it very hard or even impossible for them to acccept in their own strength.

 

[ahab]

Karin,

Thank you for your reference to John Bell, I also find he is a very good preacher and teacher on certain issues but actually find him a little limited compared with the others who you reject. After you refusing to consider other points of view concerning Murphy O’Connor I can see that you are not as open to others views and debate as I thought.
(Romans 12:2) is surely about that we are being transformed and is the consequence of our redemption, it is about transformation rather than redemption isnt it?

As to the fruit of the Spirit love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control I agree but thats another result of us being redeemed, Jesus was glorified so that the image of God in us is restored by the Holy Spirit, working within us that brings about this transformation and renewal. So the marred image of God is what? Sin?