Homosexuality, marriage and the family

[Maccie]

New thread, because this seems to combine several features of more than one other thread. And some of them are getting out of hand!

In the August edition of Christianity+Renewal there is an excellent article by Tony Campolo, one of the regular feature writers.

In it he says, on the subject of gay marriage

What is being ignored, however, is that it is not gay people who have put the family in jeopardy. The traditional family is in danger, not because so many gays want to get married, but because so many heterosexuals have chosen to get divorced. In fact, nearly half of new heterosexual marriages now end in divorce. In addition, more than 30% of today's young couples choose to live together without even bothering to get married. Churches, however, have made no headlines around these issues. On the contrary, when it comes to divorce, lately we Christians have had little to say.

As I listen to church leaders declare that the Bible requires them to condemn gay marriage I wonder how they reconcile their claims of full obedience to Scripture with their willingness to welcome those who are divorced and remarried into their congregations. Doesn't Mark 10:11-12 describe Jesus specifically declaring that divorced people who remarry are living in adultery?

If such leaders insist on 'doing the Bible thing', then they ought to at least be consistent. It isn't fair to use the Bible to clobber gays who want to get married without also using it to exclude divorced people who want to get remarried. If they must call their members' gay sons and daughters an abomination to God, should not those preachers also start condemning the children of the congregants who are living together out of wedlock?

When I ask my fellow evangelicals to explain this obvious double standard, I am often told that when it comes to divorce and remarriage we must comunicate grace above all else. To this I can only respond "When will we start communicating the same grace to our gay brothers and sisters?"

Don't get me wrong: I am no advocate of gay marriage. All I am saying here is that evangelical churches will have no credibility if they go on condemning gay marriages without revisiting the question of what the Bible has to say about marriage itself, and divorce, and the nature of all sexual activity.

It seems to me that Tony Campolo is speaking a great deal of sense. I have always considered the church to be homophobic, to be far more concerned about homosexual activity than the damage done to families by divorce, abuse. etc.

If a prominent Evangelical Christian like Campolo can say this, then perhaps the evangelical, conservative, and particularly the fundamentalist churches, who pride themselves on being 'Bible-based' need to go away quietly and have a good think about where their dogmas are leading them.

Maccie

 

[Anti-Fear]

No, he is not speaking "great deal of sense" because.
1. Same pastors who say we must condemn homo marriage also say divorce is wrong.
2. Most of heterosexuals who divorce are not Christian.
3. His points don't make gay marriage less wrong.

 

[Maccie]

No, he is not speaking "great deal of sense" because.
1. Same pastors who say we must condemn homo marriage also say divorce is wrong.
2. Most of heterosexuals who divorce are not Christian.
3. His points don't make gay marriage less wrong.

Your second point is way out. US Statistics say:

The latest divorce statistics from George Barna are sobering. One-quarter of all Americans have experienced at least one divorce. Born again Christians continue to have a higher likelihood of getting divorced than do non-Christians. Atheists are less likely to get divorced than are born again Christians. These are just some of the statistics from his latest marital snapshot of America.

George Barna concludes that "divorce may not be popular, but it remains common in America." After all, one out of every four American adults has experienced at least one divorce. What a dramatic turnaround in a social statistic in just a few decades. Divorce has gone from being rare to routine within a generation.

Lots of publicity has been given to the fact that Christians are more likely to divorce than non-Christians. I believe that part of the reason for that statistic is due to the fact that a higher percentage of Christians are more likely to get married, therefore there is a higher percentage that potentially could get divorced.

But the statistic is still troubling, even after giving that explanation. Christians should be setting the example. Instead, our marriages appear to be no different than those in the world. Not so long ago Christian tracts talked about the low divorce rate among Christians as evidence of how God and Christian faith can provide a firm foundation for marriage. Those tracts aren't in use anymore because Christian marriages are pretty much like the marriages of the world.

I think it is time for the church to get back to basics. Pastors must preach about marriage from the pulpit, and churches should encourage their members to attend marriage conferences that provide God's blueprint for marriage. Christian marriages should set the example for the world.

I still think he talks a lot of sense. Too many churches are losing their credibility on the subject of sexuality and marriage.

Maccie

 

[Treasure the Questions]

A very good subject, Maccie, and I think Tony C is speaking a great deal of sense, too.

I don't think his comments should be seen as a reason to condemn divorce, mind you, but rather as an exhortation to extend grace to everyone including homosexual people.

I am sure divorce is high amongst Christians in the UK and USA alike. In many cases perhaps the marriage could have been saved and I don't think divorce should ever be entered into lightly. However, in order for people to do their best to stay married they need support and they need to be taught how to communicate with each other as often as not.

I wonder how much the current culture, which expects people to work long hours with little time to build good family relationships contributes to the problem.

If Christians are worried that marriage is under threat, providing as much support as possible for married couples and not demanding too much of them if they are already so busy they rarely have time together would be a good start. Campaigning for a reduction in hours spent at work would be another good idea.

Karin

 

[HoT-MetaL]

Tony Campolo is awesome, going to hear him speak this summer.

Whilst I agree with him, we shouldnt generalise his findings! Perhaps it is true within the baptist denomination, but even then we must be careful not to apply it to all churches!

GoD Bless, metal.

 

[Merseymike]

As ever, he is always well worth listening to. What I also admire about him is that he and his wife, also a well known Christian, have some disagreement on the gay issue, and have discussed their differences in public, in an attempt to build bridges.

He is certainly right on this one. Stable relationships of any sort do not threaten marriage. Divorce does. And whatever way you look at it, the words against divorce are much stronger in the Bible, and spoken by Jesus Himself. The Church, I think often correctly, takes a rather more forgiving position - but its notable that they can do this with regard to divorce, but not gay people.

I think the frequency of divorce amongst evangelical Christians will give us some clues as to why, maccie!

 

[Piano Player]

Your second point is way out. US Statistics say:

Born again Christians continue to have a higher likelihood of getting divorced than do non-Christians

I still think he talks a lot of sense. Too many churches are losing their credibility on the subject of sexuality and marriage.

Maccie

Using their logic, a real "defense of marriage amendment" would outlaw born again Christians from being married.

 

[fragmentsofdreams]

No, he is not speaking "great deal of sense" because.
1. Same pastors who say we must condemn homo marriage also say divorce is wrong.

When is the last time you heard a sermon against divorce that was worded as strongly as sermons against gay marriage?

2. Most of heterosexuals who divorce are not Christian.

This has no basis. Studies show Christians are as likely to divorce as non-Christians, maybe more likely.

3. His points don't make gay marriage less wrong.

That wasn't his intent. His intent was to show that religious leaders were destroying their credibility.

 

[Anti-Fear]

I agree that churches that only speak out against gay marriage, should speak out against divorse as well.

I don't see whats wrong with using the Bible to "clobber gays who want to get married" because gay marriage is a new issue and some people want to legitimize this vile practice.

Everyone already knows that divorce is wrong and that its an offense to God, but some people became too lenient to gay marriage because its something new and many of these gays try to appear as "good christians" when they arent.

Also, to respond to someone's question: last time I heard divorce being condmened was on my AM radio station 3 days ago.
I don't see whats wrong with speaking out against homo-marriage, and leave discussion on divorce to separate sermons.

 

[calicoangel]

My church has addressed the issue of divorce on many more occassions than gay marriage. And, of course, divorce is the main thing that threatens families, but gay marriage does as well. Divorce rates are too high, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't focus attention on other threats to the family.

Born again Christians continue to have a higher likelihood of getting divorced than do non-Christians.

I can't imagine why. Maybe it's people who are claiming to be born again, but really aren't. I'm not saying that's the case for each situation, but it seems unlikely that two Christians, who share the same savior would not be able to work out whatever differences they have. This is why each couple should go through pre-marital counseling. These couples must not be discussing certain issues before saying their vows.

 

[fragmentsofdreams]

My church has addressed the issue of divorce on many more occassions than gay marriage. And, of course, divorce is the main thing that threatens families, but gay marriage does as well. Divorce rates are too high, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't focus attention on other threats to the family.

I can't imagine why. Maybe it's people who are claiming to be born again, but really aren't. I'm not saying that's the case for each situation, but it seems unlikely that two Christians, who share the same savior would not be able to work out whatever differences they have. This is why each couple should go through pre-marital counseling. These couples must not be discussing certain issues before saying their vows.

I would place the cause on insufficient marriage preperation to prevent early marriages for the purpose of having sex as well as strains caused when one spouse is born again and the other is not.

 

[christian-only]

Unscriptural divorce is wrong. Cohabiting is wrong. Homosexuality is wrong. Why make it an either-or thing? All three are wrong.

Is divorce a worse threat to the family than homosexuality? Normal parents splitting up could never cause as much harm to a yougn child as being raised by two gay men or women. How could it? They go through a divorce and they may feel guilty, maybe depressed, they may even have a higher probability of divorcing themselves, but at least they will still be normal. But if gay parents are raising them, they will be an abomination to God. "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination." (Lev 18:22) Which is worse? Is heartache worse than perversion? Certainly not! Now someone will say "Gay's are not recruiting." If not, how do they exist? No one is born that way - Paul makes that clear. What then? They are recruting. They are a movement, not a sex. They are an abomination to God. Why can't liberals just accept what God says? Why must they champion perversion? Do they love darkness rather than light? Yea, verily they do. Otherwise, they would stand with God in the light, rather than with the gays in the darkness.

 

[Maccie]

Is divorce a worse threat to the family than homosexuality? Normal parents splitting up could never cause as much harm to a yougn child as being raised by two gay men or women. How could it? They go through a divorce and they may feel guilty, maybe depressed, they may even have a higher probability of divorcing themselves, but at least they will still be normal. But if gay parents are raising them, they will be an abomination to God. "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination." (Lev 18:22) Which is worse? Is heartache worse than perversion? Certainly not! Now someone will say "Gay's are not recruiting." If not, how do they exist? No one is born that way - Paul makes that clear. What then? They are recruting. They are a movement, not a sex. They are an abomination to God. Why can't liberals just accept what God says? Why must they champion perversion? Do they love darkness rather than light? Yea, verily they do. Otherwise, they would stand with God in the light, rather than with the gays in the darkness.

I don't know how much experience you have had of either divorce or of homosexuality christian only, but you have made some very wild statements, which can only cause offence.

Firstly, there is no proof either way of how a homosexual orientation comes about. From my experience it is innate. Secondly, it is very much NOT a movement, and they do not recruit. Homosexuality has existed for centuries, but because it was illegal, it was very much under cover or behind closed doors. Now, today, with a more open society, those of a homosexual orientation feel freer to "come out".

Secondly, I do not know on what basis you place children of divorce being "better off" than those raised by a homosexual couple. Are you implying that children raised by a homosexual couple will be an abomination to God? That is a wicked statement.

Thirdly, you have obviously not experienced the tragic consequences of divorce. It can be, and often is, far more than just "heartache".

Fourthly, your post is thoroughly homophobic. I would have thought that having read the posts on this and other threads about homosexuality, that a little more grace would have been required.

And before you ask, no, I am not homosexual. But I know many that are, and some of them are Christians.

Maccie

 

[Treasure the Questions]

I quite agree with you, Maccie, christian-only's post is outrageous and does not seem to be based on reality. Militant homosexuals may be more of a problem in the USA than here but evenso most of the post seems to be based on ill-informed propaganda rather than truth.

...and, no, I'm not homosexual, either.

Karin

 

[Anti-Fear]

Christian-only's post is not outrageous and summarizes quite a lot of what many of us believe. Pleaes don't turn this thread into another homosexuality right or wrong thread.

 

[leecappella]

I don't see how we (gay people) have 'put the family' in jeopardy.

 

[Anti-Fear]

I don't see how we (gay people) have 'put the family' in jeopardy.

1. By all your actions you must be an example to the kid. a good example.
2. By choosing to act unbiblically you give bad example to the kids.
3. Since its a conscious choice to act that way its even worse.
4. It doesn't matter if your urges are biological or not. Each person has lust, and tries to deal with it. You don't see straight people running around saying "I am genetically attracted to many women, so I need to cheat on my wife, or have multiple partners"
5. What can you do? Maybe a good option is to stop gay lifestyle and become a Christian.

 

[PaladinValer]

Conservative Protestants/Calvinists, by ratios, divorce more than any other group in the US, so I don't know where you get your info from, but it is incorrect.

 

[Rev. Smith]

14. It doesn't matter if your urges are biological or not. Each person has lust, and tries to deal with it. You don't see straight people running around saying "I am genetically attracted to many women, so I need to cheat on my wife, or have multiple partners"

Actually yes we do, I see it all the time in my church (OK they don't "proclaim" it, but they do in deed. There is an expectation by many people that so long as they are not gay, and not pedophiles then we should be forgiveing of their sins. A lot of men, by their actions, are saying just this, even if they pay lip service to being faithful. "Whats the big deal" is a common attitude.

Which is worse, a hetrosexual husband who with his cheating ways makes home life bitter for his wife and kids, or a gay couple that lead circumspect and quite lives impacting no-one but themselves?

 

[christian-only]

So Paul is a modern psychologist, is he?

Thank you for revealing the problem for us. People are rejecting God's Inspired Word and replacing it with the think-so's of modern atheist sinners who will justify whatever their customer (they are getting payed you know) wants them to justify. Paul is an apostle of Jesus Christ. That's far better than a modern psychologist any day of the week.

Will I stand before a modern psychologist at the day of judgement? Or will I stand before Jesus Christ the righteous Judge? Then who should I listen to? A modern Bible hating, spiritually illiterate, psychologist, or an apostle of Jesus Christ?