Holy Spirit or Hindu Spirit - Which spirit is slaying your church?

[random person]

 

[Biblicist]

That was a fairly interesting video but its weakness is that the commentator who is obviously a cessationist would have his understanding of what he is observing being heavily restricted by his lack of experience with the power and ministry of the Holy Spirit. These videos can be very informative when there being presented by either a Pentecostal or a charismatic as we can generally discern where there are either demonic powers or emotional issues at play; but when hard-core cessationists attempt to discern what is happening they are usually forced to fall back to the supposed 'Kundalini spirit' as this can help them to disguise their lack of knowledge as to what is really happening.

It's almost like a North Korean government figure trying to criticise democracy or a liberal trying to undermine the grace of God - things which end up only mocking the presenter.

 

[swordsman1]

So only charismatics or pentecostals and those who have experienced such 'manifestations' are allowed to test them to see if they are from God?

 

[Biblicist]

So only charismatics or pentecostals and those who have experienced such 'manifestations' are allowed to test them to see if they are from God?

It's not so much about being "allowed" but being deemed capable or competent.

Even though my comment smacked of arrogance, how can we expect a cessationist leaning community to understand the intricacies of spiritual warfare when even those who are regularly involved in such activity struggle at times to work out exactly what is happening.

It's easy to throw around the term 'kundalini spirit' but this can be counter-productive when the activities that are being judged are often no more than human zeal (and at times human stupidity); for some their outbursts can even be a signal that they are suffering from some severe form of emotional or mental instability. The last thing that we want to see is church-goers or Christians jumping into situations that they have virtually no understanding of. If people cannot understand the things of the Spirit, such as with tongues, prophecy and discerning of spirits, then they need to stand back and allow those who have a far better understanding of these matters to intervene.

Even though I found one of the videos to be interesting, this is not an appropriate forum to discuss what is happening as the OP in particular (and others) have demonstrated a complete lack of awareness of what has been occurring. I've seen some very strange things over the years, which have ranged from the demonic, through emotional disturbances across to severe psychological disorders. Even though I have a reasonable grasp on this subject, I am far from being competent in ministering in this area, which means that the cessationist needs to keep himself well away from assessing what has been shown in the videos.

 

[seekingsolace]

The issue is those that often claim to have discernment and gifts of the spirit are the charlatans themselves. This is so embedded in the churches that naturally others will be skeptical. You have the whole spectrum of: cults, mental disorders, attention seekers, demonic influence, peer pressure and so on, that when and if true acts occur, believers will question the validity of such encounters.

Another point is self-restraint is rarely if ever exercised, as advised in the Bible. More often than not Christians and non-believers/seekers are actively deterred from attending congregations, due to hordes speaking what appears to be gibberish, while convulsing and violently shaking heads. I'm not saying this to tarnish the credibility of real encounters, just the negative connotations from deceivers.

I feel any true believer has the ability to discern, given they ask - not a unique gift to a movement.

 

[Biblicist]

The issue is those that often claim to have discernment and gifts of the spirit are the charlatans themselves. This is so embedded in the churches that naturally others will be skeptical. You have the whole spectrum of: cults, mental disorders, attention seekers, demonic influence, peer pressure and so on, that when and if true acts occur, believers will question the validity of such encounters.

Another point is self-restraint is rarely if ever exercised, as advised in the Bible. More often than not Christians and non-believers/seekers are actively deterred from attending congregations, due to hordes speaking what appears to be gibberish, while convulsing and violently shaking heads. I'm not saying this to tarnish the credibility of real encounters, just the negative connotations from deceivers.

I feel any true believer has the ability to discern, given they ask - not a unique gift to a movement.

If we look hard enough we can always find things that border on the fringe of accepted practice and even those things that go way past good behaviour to the point where there even dangerous. Are we more likely to find these things within a cessationist or a Pentecostal/charismatic setting, where the obvious answer is within the latter as these two movements readily accept the ministry of the Holy Spirit within their midst which can allow for not only misguided zeal but also for emotional manipulation.

Now cessationism is also prone to emotional, spiritual and financial abuse but when it comes to the ministry of the Holy Spirit within their midst, we would be unlikely to find any real excesses or impropriety as anything beyond an ‘Amen’ or a verbal prayer is about as far as it goes.

 

[seekingsolace]

If we look hard enough we can always find things that border on the fringe of accepted practice and even those things that go way past good behaviour to the point where there even dangerous. Are we more likely to find these things within a cessationist or a Pentecostal/charismatic setting, where the obvious answer is within the latter as these two movements readily accept the ministry of the Holy Spirit within their midst which can allow for not only misguided zeal but also for emotional manipulation.

Now cessationism is also prone to emotional, spiritual and financial abuse but when it comes to the ministry of the Holy Spirit within their midst, we would be unlikely to find any real excesses or impropriety as anything beyond an ‘Amen’ or a verbal prayer is about as far as it goes.

I hope you didn't feel my comments were aimed at one denomination. I see it among the whole spectrum. This is a very much a Christian problem, unfortunately due to the deceivers outshining the genuine. It seems that leaders continue the same route as their predecessors, cautious to lose a following. Of course the devil is at work, ever trying to discredit and tarnish true gifts and followers of Christ.

I am not one side or the other in my views on gifts, so hopefully you won't consider my opinions as biased.

 

[com7fy8]

"Test all things; hold fast what is good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21)

So, we are commanded to test everything. And I understand that only God is able to know what is truly good; so it is with our Father personally guiding each of us, that we are able to evaluate reliably. And I understand this means to test every thing a person says and does, since even people with real gifts can sin against their own gifts . . . like Peter did, at Antioch . . .

Galatians 2:11-13 >

Peter had the gift of apostleship, but he betrayed his gift by playing the hypocrite against Gentile-background believers. And "even Barnabas" gave in to being led that wrong way. It was wrong for anyone to go along with Peter while he was wrong.

So, we all are accountable to be reliable about who we trust and when. In His love we have His love's "senses" making us able "to discern both good and evil." (in Hebrews 5:14) In our Father's love (Philippians 1:9) we have His own ability shared with us, so we can tell the difference, no matter who says or shows what and uses a few Bible verses.

My personal experience is that the real gifts can be very humble so there is not great show . . . while wrong people can be so busy with pointing their fingers at one another, so neither of them get with the real gifts. They can be very busy with proving and showing that they are right, instead of submitting to God.

Ones claim they are about how things were done in the early church. The early church shared their things in common, and I understand that no one was required to pay money for the real Christians to minister to them. Jesus says, "Freely you have received, freely give," in Matthew 10:8. Paul by God's grace was able to do all the ministering that he did, plus he was able to work with his own hands to support himself and support those who were with him (Acts 20:32-36).

And Paul says he is our example. Any of us in God's grace have His own strength so we can go through things in "rest for your souls" (Matthew 11:28-30), and we have His personal guiding in His own love's grace, so that we can spend the right amount of time on each thing He wants us to do, including how He has us taking care of ourselves and others with us

So, I think the spiritual gift of Paul's apostleship with this example has not ceased, but is for today.

 

[random person]

 

[random person]

 

[swordsman1]

It's not so much about being "allowed" but being deemed capable or competent.

Even though my comment smacked of arrogance, how can we expect a cessationist leaning community to understand the intricacies of spiritual warfare when even those who are regularly involved in such activity struggle at times to work out exactly what is happening.

It's easy to throw around the term 'kundalini spirit' but this can be counter-productive when the activities that are being judged are often no more than human zeal (and at times human stupidity); for some their outbursts can even be a signal that they are suffering from some severe form of emotional or mental instability. The last thing that we want to see is church-goers or Christians jumping into situations that they have virtually no understanding of. If people cannot understand the things of the Spirit, such as with tongues, prophecy and discerning of spirits, then they need to stand back and allow those who have a far better understanding of these matters to intervene.

Even though I found one of the videos to be interesting, this is not an appropriate forum to discuss what is happening as the OP in particular (and others) have demonstrated a complete lack of awareness of what has been occurring. I've seen some very strange things over the years, which have ranged from the demonic, through emotional disturbances across to severe psychological disorders. Even though I have a reasonable grasp on this subject, I am far from being competent in ministering in this area, which means that the cessationist needs to keep himself well away from assessing what has been shown in the videos.

The thing is these are not exactly rare occurrences. There are hundreds of videos on YouTube of people being 'slain in the spirit' etc in charismatic churches. I would hardly say it is rocket science to be able to determine whether something is from the Holy Spirit. If the same strange phenomena are occurring in other religions then alarm bells ought to be ringing. Is being 'slain in the spirit' and jerking spasmodically really from God? Is it biblical? Non-believers are certainly pronouncing their judgement on YouTube with comments such as "Christians are crazy".

 

[random person]

 

[random person]

 

[random person]

 

[random person]

 

[random person]

Why would the Holy Spirit operate in a pagan/occult way, or adopt a pagan/occult "manifestation"?

There is no evidence, no evidence at all of this being Biblical!

I am not saying Pentacostals are mentally or doctrinally challenged, and depend on emotional experiences and personal revelations in these church services in order receive some confirmation of God but these practices are pagan in origin. These Hindu practices outdate pentacostalism by hundreds even thousands of years depending on one's source.

The concept of Kundalini is mentioned in Upanishads (9th century BCE - 3rd century BCE).[10][verification needed] The Sanskrit adjective kuṇḍalin means "circular, annular". It does occur as a noun for "a snake" (in the sense "coiled", as in "forming ringlets") in the 12th-century Rajatarangini chronicle (I.2). Kuṇḍa, a noun with the meaning "bowl, water-pot" is found as the name of a Naga in Mahabharata 1.4828. The 8th-century Tantrasadbhava Tantra uses the term kundalī ("ring, bracelet; coil (of a rope)").[11][clarification needed]

The use of kuṇḍalī as a name of Durga or of a Shakti appears as a technical term in Tantrism and Shaktism as early as c. the 11th century, in the Śaradatilaka.[12] It is adopted as kuṇḍalniī as a technical term into Hatha yoga in the 15th century and becomes widely used in the Yoga Upanishads by the 16th century. Eknath Easwaran has paraphrased the term as "the coiled power," a force which ordinarily rests at the base of the spine, described as being "coiled there like a serpent".[13] The phrase serpent power was coined by Sir John Woodroffe, who published his translation of two 16th-century treatises on laya yoga (Kundalini yoga) in 1919 under this title.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kundalini#Etymology

 

[Biblicist]

I hope you didn't feel my comments were aimed at one denomination. I see it among the whole spectrum. This is a very much a Christian problem, unfortunately due to the deceivers outshining the genuine. It seems that leaders continue the same route as their predecessors, cautious to lose a following. Of course the devil is at work, ever trying to discredit and tarnish true gifts and followers of Christ.

I am not one side or the other in my views on gifts, so hopefully you won't consider my opinions as biased.

When it comes to critiquing Pentecostal or charismatic theology, our denominations or even individual ministries, unlike some of my less than secure brethren, this is something that I certainly both welcome and encourage.

One of the things that can make Pentecostal or charismatic (Full Gospel) ministries such an easy target is with how their failures can be in stark contrast to the high benchmarks that they generally establish. A good example of this has been with the horrid Todd Bentley debacle where his ongoing wickedness was further compounded by the celebrity ministries who supported him and where I will say that they even encouraged him in his wickedness.

If we compare the worldwide fallout with Bentley when compared to that of the Schuller clan, even though Schuller’s cessationist ministry was undoubtedly doomed from the start, as his “Hour of Power” ministry lacked any semblance of Holy Spirit power where it was more of a suburban ‘bless me’ club, then the fallout from his ‘ministry’ was far less significant than it was with the upstart ‘ministry’ of Bentley.

Even though I am now moving into the realm of idealism, as we are now in the 21st century where we have seen every type of ministry failure possible over recent centuries alone, we could be possibly forgiven if we had hoped that by now the silly antics of the likes of Bentley and Schuller were a thing of the past. But sadly, our human fraility will always be with us up until the day the Lord returns.

 

[Biblicist]

The thing is these are not exactly rare occurrences. There are hundreds of videos on YouTube of people being 'slain in the spirit' etc in charismatic churches. I would hardly say it is rocket science to be able to determine whether something is from the Holy Spirit. If the same strange phenomena are occurring in other religions then alarm bells ought to be ringing. Is being 'slain in the spirit' and jerking spasmodically really from God? Is it biblical? Non-believers are certainly pronouncing their judgement on YouTube with comments such as "Christians are crazy".

That's very true indeed but it should be pointed out that 99% of what occurs is nothing more than human exhuberance and emotionalism, which has absolutely nothing to do with any fanciful ideas of supposed demonic activity. There are certainly the 1% (or maybe more) of cases where people who are under demonic influences collapse due to the presence of the Holy Spirit which is a signal that deliverance is required.

 

[Biblicist]

Why would the Holy Spirit operate in a pagan/occult way, or adopt a pagan/occult "manifestation"?

There is no evidence, no evidence at all of this being Biblical!

I am not saying Pentacostals are mentally or doctrinally challenged, and depend on emotional experiences and personal revelations in these church services in order receive some confirmation of God but these practices are pagan in origin. These Hindu practices outdate pentacostalism by hundreds even thousands of years depending on one's source.

The concept of Kundalini is mentioned in Upanishads (9th century BCE - 3rd century BCE).[10][verification needed] The Sanskrit adjective kuṇḍalin means "circular, annular". It does occur as a noun for "a snake" (in the sense "coiled", as in "forming ringlets") in the 12th-century Rajatarangini chronicle (I.2). Kuṇḍa, a noun with the meaning "bowl, water-pot" is found as the name of a Naga in Mahabharata 1.4828. The 8th-century Tantrasadbhava Tantra uses the term kundalī ("ring, bracelet; coil (of a rope)").[11][clarification needed]

The use of kuṇḍalī as a name of Durga or of a Shakti appears as a technical term in Tantrism and Shaktism as early as c. the 11th century, in the Śaradatilaka.[12] It is adopted as kuṇḍalniī as a technical term into Hatha yoga in the 15th century and becomes widely used in the Yoga Upanishads by the 16th century. Eknath Easwaran has paraphrased the term as "the coiled power," a force which ordinarily rests at the base of the spine, described as being "coiled there like a serpent".[13] The phrase serpent power was coined by Sir John Woodroffe, who published his translation of two 16th-century treatises on laya yoga (Kundalini yoga) in 1919 under this title.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kundalini#Etymology

So that we are on some common ground, what do the Scriptures have to say regarding what you have just posted; and by this I mean the Christian Scriptures and not Hindu writings.

 

[Biblicist]

"Test all things; hold fast what is good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21)

So, we are commanded to test everything. And I understand that only God is able to know what is truly good; so it is with our Father personally guiding each of us, that we are able to evaluate reliably. And I understand this means to test every thing a person says and does, since even people with real gifts can sin against their own gifts . . . like Peter did, at Antioch . . .

Galatians 2:11-13 >

Peter had the gift of apostleship, but he betrayed his gift by playing the hypocrite against Gentile-background believers. And "even Barnabas" gave in to being led that wrong way. It was wrong for anyone to go along with Peter while he was wrong.

So, we all are accountable to be reliable about who we trust and when. In His love we have His love's "senses" making us able "to discern both good and evil." (in Hebrews 5:14) In our Father's love (Philippians 1:9) we have His own ability shared with us, so we can tell the difference, no matter who says or shows what and uses a few Bible verses.

My personal experience is that the real gifts can be very humble so there is not great show . . . while wrong people can be so busy with pointing their fingers at one another, so neither of them get with the real gifts. They can be very busy with proving and showing that they are right, instead of submitting to God.

Ones claim they are about how things were done in the early church. The early church shared their things in common, and I understand that no one was required to pay money for the real Christians to minister to them. Jesus says, "Freely you have received, freely give," in Matthew 10:8. Paul by God's grace was able to do all the ministering that he did, plus he was able to work with his own hands to support himself and support those who were with him (Acts 20:32-36).

And Paul says he is our example. Any of us in God's grace have His own strength so we can go through things in "rest for your souls" (Matthew 11:28-30), and we have His personal guiding in His own love's grace, so that we can spend the right amount of time on each thing He wants us to do, including how He has us taking care of ourselves and others with us

So, I think the spiritual gift of Paul's apostleship with this example has not ceased, but is for today.

A lot of us wonder if the shenanigans that you have rightfully and justifiably referred to are little more than the outworking of Western consumerism and our need to promote ourselves above others. Is it possible that the self-centredness and greed of our western mindset is in such opposition to the Word and Power of God that the two are maybe completely incompatible?