Hillsong? (How do you know)

[Trogdor the Burninator]

A CCC is even worse (if that's possible) than Hillsong, and Phil Pringle is even worse (if that's possible) than Brian Houston.

Too many acronyms. At first I thought you meant Chinese Christian Church - of which there are plenty in Sydney.

 

[GodsoldierClintus]

O yeah those Chinese are evil...

(I'm Chinese, just incase that was taken offensively)

 

[Trogdor the Burninator]

How about we all just pull up!

What does Hillsong/Pentecostal bashing, slating and picking do? Other than making you all look like winging Christians, it serves no purpose.

I've been a part of A.O.G and a Pentecostal all my life, and I am quick to say that there are problems and faults in the church and denomination. But I also know that there are faults and problems in every church and denomination

I agree. How would Anglicans feel if a Hillsong minister started up on a story like this

Child abuse has gone unchecked in the Church of England for decades amid a cover up by bishops, secret papers have revealed.

Information that could have prevented abuse has been "lost or damaged", concerns about individuals have been ignored and allegations have not been recorded. It means that the Church has no idea how many paedophiles are in its midst.

They could quote this and reason that the Anglican church is full of peadophiles, that the leaders have been covering it up for decades. Maybe they did it to protect their massive property portfolio.
Oh, did you hear about that women who left Philip Jensen's church. She's writing a book about how they oppress women and force them out of leadership. etc etc

There is no difference between you and Hillsong or the next pentecostal because we are all sinners and we all fall short of the Glory of God.

Here's an idea, instead of pointing out the speak in another's eye, why don't you first look at the log in your own eye!!

Another idea, why not pray for Hillsong/A.O.G/Pentecostals instead of slating and bashing them?
.............

Hillsong and those who run it will answer to God, as will you and I.

Definitely. If Brian really is ripping off Christians, pocketing millions to spend on himself and screwing up God's followers, then we shouldn't hate him. We should PITY him. Because one thing's for sure - if it turned out to be true I wouldn't want to be him on judgment day.

 

[tgg]

I think it's much easier to be a sunday christian in Catholic church because it doesn't matter what you do during the week as long as you go to confession on sunday and say your hail marys you'll be right! WHAT A LOAD OF RUBBISH!

You have a point there. Is confessing your sins to a priest or minister a Biblical thing anyway? What you've just said is one of the reasons why myself and my father do not attend church anymore. What's the point in going there to listen to a sermon on how to 'better' yourself, then go home and go back to doing what you did before? Jesus likened this to a 'dog going back to what it regurgitated and a pig going back to rolling around in the mud'.

I would have to agree with the lack of prosperity preaching in most pentecostal churches. Its a HUGE misconception that, that is what it's all pentecostal churches are about. our church never talks about giving to get back.

Where do you go to church?

I don't go to church anymore, especially after the way the churches I supported kicked me in the guts. I prefer to be a solitary Christian these days, and think the churches would be much better places if they were accepting of everyone the way they are, not money hungry, and taught only one single philosophy nstead of a myriad of theologies and a list of 'dos' and 'don'ts' as long as the book "Pride and Prejudice".

 

[GodsoldierClintus]

I don't know what happened to you tgg, or how you were hurt - but it is biblical to be part of the body, part of the church. The body needs all its members - Jesus calls us all to be part of the body, to help spread salt and light and all that.

I think it's okay to be away from the church because of hurt/other matters related to disenchantment of the church - but eventually every member is still called to the body. I would encourage you to seek a church for yourself? Without others - it is very hard to keep walking in the faith, and as God made us to be a relational people also - he did intend us to keep in relationship with believers and non-believers alike.

I actually think church is very important in sharpening one another and building each other up in fellowship.

 

[MOTHY]

I don't have a problem with Hillsong per se...but as with any denomination they haven't got everything right. I can't speak of Hillsong as I've never been there, but with the pentecostal movement in general I have problems with:

1) Prosperity Doctorine
2) Indulgence in the "gift of tongues"
3) Indulgence in the self
4) Indulgence of world things.
5) Incorrect notion of the gift of tongues and its relation to Baptism of the Spirit and Water Baptism.

I have to point out some pentecostal churches may not have any problems with the above, but I disagree with this notion of chasing after the gift of tongues. Not every Christian can speak in tongues, and the gift of tongues does not edify the body but the self. Certainly when I first became a Christian, it was at a pentecostal church, so I only speak of what I experienced there. But I came on Sunday's to "recharge" and to get on a high. It comes to a point when that was all a pack of lies. The gospel is not about me, nor is it about you, its about Christ. The whole concept or worship was wrong. Worship isn't just in song, or in speaking in tongues. Worship is something that our lives are meant to be. Every second, every moment - is meant to be worship.

Also at that particular pentecostal church the belief was held by some members (I don't know, as I never spoke to the pastor about it), by my friend told me that if water baptism, baptism by the spirit, and the gift of tongues occur at the same time. If you don't speak in tongues, then something's wrong. That is completely wrong, and it creates tension in the church, plus freaks out those who aren't Christians visiting the church.

The whole prosperity doctrine is scary. I don't know who from reading the bible one can get the notion that "By giving, God will give back to you" This was repeated everytime at tithing time. The gospels have nothing to do with worldly treasures. It is totally unscriptural. It digusts me that there are massive productions, constant pampering of how God has blessed the church. We are not blessed to be proud over it. We are blessed to bless others. There was never once talk of the homeless, or those living in poverty overseas. It was more "Look at us, God likes us, look at all our money and flashy shows" Church wasn't church - it was a show. And it wasn't real. People put on there Sunday selves there. What is the exact purpose of a massive church building with smoke, stage, lights, good equipment? I don't see how it glorifies God - Jesus never had flashy clothing or anything like that. Nor did Jesus ever indulge himself, and but excuse me, He's God. He could have and there would have been nothing wrong with it. Yet he doesn't, but people do? I must say however, there are wonderful Christians from the church.

Also the indulgence in the Spirit encourages followers to follow after the Spirit but fail to actually back anything with scripture. The tongues are not the be all and end all of the gospel - and it is presented as such. Knowledge of the gospels is second to indulging in these tongues. The whole gospel becomes one of experience - which is totally stupid. The gospel isn't about physical experience. The gospel is about how we are redeemed by Christ and how we are to focus on him constantly. I do wonder how many "Sunday Christians" went to that church.

That is not to say other churches are completely correct either, but they are very obvious things that is not correct with pentecostals. I must point out I'm not attacking the gift of tongues, or the Holy Spirit that would be blasphemy of the Spirit. But I use to think I can speak in tongues when I was at that church, but I now can assure you I don't.

Sorry to be so tardy in my response, but I agree totally. My experience in a Pentecostal church for 12 years being remarkably similar.

 

[MOTHY]

I must say to you Kazamataz, how disturbing I find your lack of knowledge of Hillsong and Pentecostal churches in general. I am wondering how long have you been going to these types of churches? I myself went for about a decade, and that was 10 years too much. The average Pentecostal stays for only 3 years, so compare that to the traditional churches.

The hype, the constant give give give, the weird and wacked out "manifestations", ugh!!! I could go on and on.

I'm sorry you had such a roug experience, BlackSaab, but how come you stayed for 10 years? I was educated and brought up as a RC for 30 odd years, without anyone enquiring of, or even being interested in whether I attended church, contributed to fundraising events, or whatever.......total disinterest. On attending a pentecostal church, the absolute opposite was shown. AND I'm saying this as an ex-pentecostal member, my reasons for leaving being personal and no fault of the church or it's teaching.

 

[MOTHY]

Hillsong is part of the Assemblies of God.


I think there are serious issues with any church whose eldership looks like this:
5 Pastors thumbsup: to that):

BRIAN HOUSTON (Senior Pastor)
​

ROBERT FERGUSSON (Senior Associate Pastor)
DR. GORDON LEE (Pastor of Chinese Extension Service)
KEVIN BRETT (Pastor)
PHIL DOOLEY (Executive Pastor)
JOEL A'BELL (Executive Pastor)
​

And then these "elders" (see later, in reality, board directors ):

GEORGE AGHAJANIAN (General Manager "possesses a wealth of senior management experience")
NABI SALEH ("Chairman of Gloria Jean's Coffees Australia and New Zealand")
LEIGH HOWARD-SMITH ("Managing Director of several companies in the logistics/transport and plastic manufacturing industries")
DON COOPER-WILLIAM ("Senior Marketing Executive within the IT Industry.")
JOHN MAYS ("Business Manager for the City Campus")
​

Does that sound more like a church or a business? General managers? business managers? it appears that success in the business world is necessary for one to become part of the eldership of Hillsong.
http://www2.hillsong.com/church/default.asp?pid=14

Hillsong Financial Charter tells us more about what these elders really are, they are directors on the church board:
http://www2.hillsong.com/church/default.asp?pid=15

Hillsong Corporate Governance
http://www2.hillsong.com/church/default.asp?pid=16

Pastors who have a website like this, which is linked directly from the Hillsong home page:
http://www.leadershipministries.com.au/

I think this, and if you observe the overall tone of the website and their marketing and promotion techniques, is an indicator that the church as an insitution has lost its focus on Jesus and has become more of a business focusing on Brian & Bobbie and making money.

Hmmmmmmmmmm....So then, how does one sincere, simple bible believing Christian with no criminal record like me get on the Board of Hillsong?

 

[Scorcher505]

Please tone down the flaming and bashing of other people's religious points of view, or this thread will be closed

 

[foxsta]

I think it's much easier to be a sunday christian in Catholic church because it doesn't matter what you do during the week as long as you go to confession on sunday and say your hail marys you'll be right! WHAT A LOAD OF RUBBISH!

I would have to agree with the lack of prosperity preaching in most pentecostal churches. Its a HUGE misconception that, that is what it's all pentecostal churches are about. our church never talks about giving to get back.

The whole belief that you "need" to speak in tongues to be saved, Is NOT a belief held by the majority of pentecostal churches.

There are however some exceptions to the rule and those churches are boarding on cults!

Where do you go to church?

Thanks Mod! That is the biggest load of &%$@ I have ever heard and shows a gross misunderstanding...Un-@!#$%&*-believable! And when I don't thin Aus is as bad as the US, I am proven wrong again

 

[GodsoldierClintus]

Well here's a surprise

Born in Auckland, New Zealand, in February 1954, Brian's parents Frank and Hazel were then Salvation Army officers. When Brian was three, his parents joined the Assemblies of God in New Zealand, and began pastoring an AOG Church in Lower Hutt, near Wellington where Brian, his brother and three sisters spent their childhood. After completing school, Brian went to Bible College for three years. Shortly after completing College, he met Bobbie on Papamoa Beach in New Zealand during a Christian convention. They were married in 1977.

Hmmmm. It's really hard being an officers kid. I'm sorry it's all our fault! (Just kidding)

 

[GodsoldierClintus]

http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/1542.htm

 

[tgg]

I don't know what happened to you tgg, or how you were hurt - but it is biblical to be part of the body, part of the church. The body needs all its members - Jesus calls us all to be part of the body, to help spread salt and light and all that.

The problem is that most churches don't accept people the way they are. I got rejected by two churches that I gave a lot of spiritual and financial support when I tried to do a lecture on how naturism pertains to Christianity when I was in my early 20's. The youth pastor of the AOG church said "Naturism is a bait for fornication" - which is complete rubbish! He then kicked me out of his church and told me never to talk to any member of his youth group again.

When I tried the Catholic church I went to, the priest said "Save a lecture like that for the older people, it's not good for a youth group". I bet that neither of these ministers had ANY experience with it to pass such judgements on my way of life. There is NOWHERE in the Bible where Jesus rejected fellowship with naturists, or people who were black, or homosexual, or of another religion. And I'm certainly not going to give up my naturist lifestyle because some "Christians" don't like it.

I think it's okay to be away from the church because of hurt/other matters related to disenchantment of the church - but eventually every member is still called to the body. I would encourage you to seek a church for yourself? Without others - it is very hard to keep walking in the faith, and as God made us to be a relational people also - he did intend us to keep in relationship with believers and non-believers alike.

This is exactly what the church in Australia is NOT doing. If you don't embrace all their dogmas or conform then they don't want to know you.

I think I'll start up my own church where naturists, nudists, GBLTs, polyamourous people, and Billy Ray Cyrus fans are all welcome to participate without any form of judgement. There's no giving 10% of your money, no talking in tongues, no wearing expensive designer clothes or jewellry, no driving flash cars, and no infant baptism.

 

[Anduril]

The problem is that most churches don't accept people the way they are. I got rejected by two churches that I gave a lot of spiritual and financial support when I tried to do a lecture on how naturism pertains to Christianity when I was in my early 20's. The youth pastor of the AOG church said "Naturism is a bait for fornication" - which is complete rubbish! He then kicked me out of his church and told me never to talk to any member of his youth group again.

When I tried the Catholic church I went to, the priest said "Save a lecture like that for the older people, it's not good for a youth group". I bet that neither of these ministers had ANY experience with it to pass such judgements on my way of life. There is NOWHERE in the Bible where Jesus rejected fellowship with naturists, or people who were black, or homosexual, or of another religion. And I'm certainly not going to give up my naturist lifestyle because some "Christians" don't like it.

I'm not surprised they gave you the flick. Completely inappropriate for grown men to be walking around in public naked let alone enticing kids to do the same. If you want to get around naked in the privacy of your own home thats your right to do so but you need to realise that the vast majority of people do not consider it normal. Wouldn't it be easier to just put on some clothes?

 

[GodsoldierClintus]

I personally don't understand why naturism is so important to you and why it pertains to Christianity. I'd love to hear it (I'm serious). I also understand why they wouldn't want that kind of stuff in their youth groups. I don't understand your point of view though as yet, so I won't make an opinion until I see the full picture. I'd agree with your view on how the church has to set out a conforming religious dogma that seems to have to be followed. There are independent churches out there like Hillsong for example (sorry couldn't resist) or rather non-denominational churches.

My friend actually attends this vineyard church where they paint and stuff out the front during worship, it sounded kinda cool. I believe it fully to say that God has a church for you - that is a fellowship of believers. I'd love to hear your views on naturism. I will add one more thing, everyone is an individual but we are all one through Christ and called to unity. Every single Christian is going to have differing beliefs...it's okay not to believe in exactly the same thing...but I think there is the core message that through Christ we are saved, and there is spiritual regeneration. What they regeneration means though is sometime mis-interpreted as following a strict dogma of a church.

But yeah explain to me your views on naturism anyway. I'd like to hear them.

 

[jessesgirl]

Subscribing

 

[Labayu]

Ok as far as the board goes:

Hillsong take in a LOT of money a year...

and I know the most popular solution here would be that they simply drastically reduce the amount of money they collect/make yearly but that's not going to happen because

a) they are using the money to expand God's kingdom so why would they intentially limit their scope to make other Christians feel better

or

b) Brian Houston needs a helicopter to keep up with the Treat's

depending on your outlook.

Seriously though, who would you rather look over/steward/account for millions of dollars? People who know and are used to handling that amount of money and buy into the puropse of the church (and presumably those who give are also buying into that purpose) or old Mrs Smith who is a nice lady but has no experence dealing with thousands of dollars at a time let alone millions. If it was old Mrs Smith we'd be hearing how Hillsong is intrusting it's money to someone grossly unqualified...

guarenteed the directors of most christian charities are either the founders or (ex-)businessmen. You know those who look after the money of the Anglican and Catholic churches could look after the accounts of any big business.

 

[atheliah]

Are people also forgetting that a church that size also has a heck of a lot of bills to pay, not to mention other people who need to be paid that are on the staff list. Its not just Brian and Bobby who get the money.

Also, the various other ministries they support such as their uni, tv and media, hillsong youth, kids, women and men, hillsong aid and development, mercy ministries, hillsong care and so on... money has to come from somewhere, doesn't just fall out of the sky, and each of those ministries costs money to run, electricity, phone bills, rent and staff!

And yeah, their church has good people who tithe. They are doing the work of God, so why shouldn't they be blessed?

 

[GodsoldierClintus]

I don't have a problem with that but I only have one question. Where does it say in the Bible anywhere that God will bless us in this life for following him?

 

[MOTHY]

The problem is that most churches don't accept people the way they are. I got rejected by two churches that I gave a lot of spiritual and financial support when I tried to do a lecture on how naturism pertains to Christianity when I was in my early 20's. The youth pastor of the AOG church said "Naturism is a bait for fornication" - which is complete rubbish! He then kicked me out of his church and told me never to talk to any member of his youth group again.

When I tried the Catholic church I went to, the priest said "Save a lecture like that for the older people, it's not good for a youth group". I bet that neither of these ministers had ANY experience with it to pass such judgements on my way of life. There is NOWHERE in the Bible where Jesus rejected fellowship with naturists, or people who were black, or homosexual, or of another religion. And I'm certainly not going to give up my naturist lifestyle because some "Christians" don't like it.



This is exactly what the church in Australia is NOT doing. If you don't embrace all their dogmas or conform then they don't want to know you.

I think I'll start up my own church where naturists, nudists, GBLTs, polyamourous people, and Billy Ray Cyrus fans are all welcome to participate without any form of judgement. There's no giving 10% of your money, no talking in tongues, no wearing expensive designer clothes or jewellry, no driving flash cars, and no infant baptism.

tgg, I have never read any example in the bible where Jesus was naked and the apostles were naked. Nor do I see any approval of this anywhere. All I see is that Adam and Eve 'saw they were naked, and were ashamed, after eating of the tree of knowledge' paraphrase, mine. Most people would be appalled to be confronted by naked people at a public gathering, save if for the privacy of your home or among similar believing people. I for sure would not want anyone to see my naked butt, heh!