Hey Bosporus Swim Team, a few quick questions ...

Tangible

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Before converting to Orthodoxy,

Was Lutheranism an option for you?

Did you look into Lutheranism at all?

- If so, what sources of information did you use?

- If so, what were the main reasons you chose the Eastern Orthodox Church over Lutheranism?
 

GreekOrthodox

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Tangible, I grew up LCMS and had served for 10 years as an elder in two churches. Back in 2001, most of the LCMS congregations in my area had deserted the historic liturgy for contemporary worship. The last straw was a praise band around the altar. After a rousing round of "Shine Jesus Shine" complete with arms in the air, they switched to The Lutheran Hymnal setting for Communion which was such a jolting change, that my wife and I simply walked out. I had learned about Orthodoxy back in college (I have a Bachelors in Religious Studies), and we attended all the local flavors of Orthodoxy and settled into a small Greek parish. I still pull out my TLH and sing the service that I grew up on every so often, but I dont think I could ever go back to attend a service.
 
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Oct 15, 2008
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I looked at Anglicanism and Lutheranism. My own kids go to an LCMS school here in town in fact. Great folks, but I don't agree with several things about Lutheranism:

sola scriptura
sola gracia
sola fide
apostolic succession not being important
excessive power of the laity
disconnect from the Fathers
extremely Anselm on steroids approach to Atonement
don't agree with the protestant ethos

I admire Luther for his disgust and outrage toward the CC's indulgences and corrupt medievel practices. I think he was a man of courage and conviction, but he was ultimately caught up in the net of schism to begin with and only made matters worse....

I read too much of the Fathers and history to be Protestant....AND CATHOLIC anymore.
 
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Tangible

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Thanks for responding. I agree that the advent of the Church Growth Movement has been disastrous in the LCMS. Thankfully, there are still some who reject these practices and maintain and promote historical, liturgical Christianity.

I struggle with this in my own church, where a pastor with a 40+ year tenure and an affinity for Billy Graham and Robert Schuller has wasted many years failing to properly catechize his flock. At last check, only one out of six adult Sunday school classes were using Lutheran teaching materials, as opposed to Evangelical Protestant materials.

I have yet to give up hope, though. The one class using Lutheran materials was the college-age class. Our new vicar, soon to be associate pastor, was educated at Ft Wayne, and is very conservative in his theology an praxis. Across the board, it seems that the younger clergy are on the whole more traditional and more Confessional than their predecessors.

As a recent convert to Lutheranism from Evangelical Protestant, I was frankly shocked and disappointed when I discovered how many cradle Lutherans are being enticed away from faithful confession and practice. They have such a treasure in their hands and they are trading it for shallow emotionalism and false doctrine.
 
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ArmyMatt

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I was raised an Episcopalian, so while I looked into Lutheranism for a bit (also being German), I didn't really have to look far, because depending on the flavor of Lutheran you are, you can run into the same problems that you can run into in Anglicanism, although certainly not as widespread or nutty.

a semester and summer long check of the Church Fathers and I saw where I needed to be.

and welcome to TAW!
 
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GreekOrthodox

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I struggle with this in my own church, where a pastor with a 40+ year tenure and an affinity for Billy Graham and Robert Schuller has wasted many years failing to properly catechize his flock. At last check, only one out of six adult Sunday school classes were using Lutheran teaching materials, as opposed to Evangelical Protestant materials.

Chuckles, I once offered to teach a class on the Augsburg Confession. No one showed up but there were like 30 people in a class on "Who Moved My Cheese"...
 
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Luther073082

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It is a sad thing that far too many Lutherans have been infected with a lot of protestant ideas and arn't properly taught there one.

One thing I like about my current church is there are readings from the Book of Concord along with the scriptures.
 
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Gnarwhal

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I am sure this qualifies as a dumb question, but why was your former church teaching a class on a business management book?

That sounds characteristic of your average Evangelical church, I can't speak for Lutheran churches though. It seems like these days there's more effort put into teaching church goers how to manage finances or grow a full head of hair than there is on proper doctrine.
 
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Mary of Bethany

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Hi, Tangible - nice to "see" you in TAW. :)

I grew up Baptist, and when I came to believe in the sacraments I wanted a "high" liturgical church and ended up in the Anglican Catholic Church. From there I discovered the Orthodox Church and knew that's where I wanted to be. I never actually looked at Lutheranism, because in my mind it was not "high church" and wasn't the direction I wanted to go. I realize now that it's very close to Angliclanism as far as liturgy goes, but it's a moot point now. :)

Mary
 
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Gnarwhal

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I guess I forgot to address the OP, whoops. :p

I'm not Orthodox yet, but FWIW I haven't really explored Anglicanism or Lutheranism, mainly because I just don't have a taste for either. I've considered visiting the ACPK parish downtown, but I'm not sure I completely align with Anglican/Episcopalian theology, even though in the past NT Wright has been one of my favorite authors. I know there's varying degrees of Lutheranism from the ELCA to the LCMS, but honestly none of it's really interested me.

One thing is that I've come to really love and revere the sacramental theology of the Orthodox Church.
 
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Antony in Tx

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I actually practiced as a ELCA Lutheran for about fifteen years due to liking the liturgical nature of the worhsip. I, too was quite distrurbed by the burst of modernism creeping into the church, along with a more liberal social mindset. I immediately felt at home in the Orthodox church, and later discovered that my mother had been baptized and raised Orthodox until she was a teenager, when she began going to the Methodist church because that is what immigrant's daughters who didn't want to be labeled as "too ethnic" did back in the day. Since I joined the Orthodox church, my mother has also come back into communion.

On a side note...one of the "modern" liturgical songs in the ELCA (and I assume the LCMS too), "As the grains of wheat" is actually adapted very closely from the Didache which was an early teaching from the Apostles themselves and though lost for a time was found in the 1800's and is still used, uncorrupted, in Orthodox teaching..."As this broken bread was once scattered on the mountains, and after it had been brought together became one, so may thy Church be gathered together from the ends of the earth unto thy kingdom; for thine is the glory, and the power, through Jesus Christ, for ever." (Didache Ch9 v 5.)

:liturgy:
 
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-Kyriaki-

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I grew up sorta charismatic methodist (UCA, which doesn't exist outside australia) and had exposure to varying pentecostal (including megachurch style), anglican and lutheran services/traditions as well as occasionally attending others. My high school was Lutheran, my grandmother was Lutheran until she married my grandfather...but I found the same problems that I had with protestantism theology-wise with the Lutherans as much as with my own tradition.

My catechist (who is now an Orthodox priest) was hardcore Lutheran until he converted about ten years ago.
 
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GreekOrthodox

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I am sure this qualifies as a dumb question, but why was your former church teaching a class on a business management book?

Graceful, not only a class on business management but a terrible one at that. My church jumped into crappy church growth theology hook line and sinker. Everyone did tests on their "spiritual gifts", got classified under a "Christian" version of the Briggs-Meyers personality test, and signed up for classes to "improve your spirituality". The joke among conservative Lutherans is, "what ever the Baptists are doing today, the LCMS will be doing 10 years from now when it is out of style".

This move torn me to dig deeper into Lutheran theology and I read through the Book of Concord, CFW Walther's books, and Piepers Christian Dogmatics. This got me into reading older material and when I got back into researching the Church Fathers, I noticed a serious disconnect. Although the earliest Lutherans acknowledged the church fathers, they were so influenced by Augustine, Anselm and Aquinas (for, for and against) that they were restoring IMHO a very distorted belief system.
 
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xenia

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I did visit a Lutheran church in town on my way from Evangelicalism --> Orthodoxy. It was a big, barn-like structure maybe a third full. It was a Missouri Synod parish. I was hoping for "A Mighty Fortress is Our God" and got happy-clappy instead. Also, Lutherans overdo the Law vs Gospel concept. It wasn't the worst church I visited that summer but it wasn't worth tearing my whole life apart to join. But when I visited my first Orthodox Church I realized that I had found the Pearl of Great Price and I would gladly tear my life apart to join.
 
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Fotina

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