Hesitating to call myself a christian

[dms1972]

Im just not sure were I am at.

What I am fairly sure of is that I thought a lot about whether God exists, and read many gospel tracts, after which often feeling a need and praying, but I never felt sure my prayer was sincere. I got into theology and have been reading books on that for a while.

A couple of books I have are Faith, doubt and certainty by Lesslie Newbigin, and Faith Hope and Love, by Joseph pieper. I suppose an earnest study of these would yeild an answer. Its just I don't always feel motivated in my search.

Any sense of need of salvation usually comes only when I read a gospel tract.

The rest of the time I don't really feel anything. Its almost just a matter of keeping searching inspite of my demotivation. So one way out of nihilism perhaps, or avoiding nihilism is existentialism (making my own meaning) I suppose that would be what Francis Scaheffer called the upper story leap - a leap of faith separated from rationality. But then in his understanding thats not Biblical faith.

Anyway I'll read your post.

Thanks for replying

 

[WretchedGoat]

Best of luck to you in your search for your answer. I hate to be the one to rain on your parade, but as long as you are a member of a Christian message board, you'll always be cast into doubt. Some folks seem to think being Christian is a race or a list of check boxes, and they slobber all over themselves to call you out for anything that doesn't fit their view.

I'd recommend finding people IRL to talk to about faith. IRL, you can better tell who is genuine and who isn't. On the Internet, who knows who you're talking to?

I wanted to say though, you aren't alone in your questions and doubts. I struggle with them daily. Some days I love God to pieces, others I doubt He exists or if He does, He hates me like everyone else. I don't know. Maybe it's just part of being human. Good luck though.

 

[dms1972]

Thanks for your comments.

Not fussed on the tick-box approach and neither would I trust everyone who applies it, some christians simply are not cut out or gifted to help someone struggling, or understand their difficulties.

However I think one does have to have some content to their faith, such as what a catechism gives, but I never did one of those though I look at them sometimes online.

 

[aiki]

I do think there are a few genuine people who want to help others and not just convert them to their theology, but I agree a lot of it is people just trying to force others to agree with them.

No one can force you to their point of view. How does that saying go? "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still." It is perfectly normal to assert your point of view if you are strongly convinced of it; but you cannot make anyone else come around to your way of thinking if they are determined to resist it. So, why object when people call you on what you believe - or don't believe? So what if they come on strongly? It's not like they can reach through your computer screen, take you by the throat, and throttle you into agreeing with them.

It has been my experience that the people who complain the most about "arrogant people who think they know" are those people who are the most ignorant and unsure of their beliefs. People who want grey areas in which to operate and beliefs that are flexible enough to accommodate their own personal preferences are the ones who are most strident in their objections to people who say to them, "You're wrong. The Bible doesn't say that. It doesn't allow that." Nothing makes "Christians" living in a grey area more uncomfortable than followers of Christ who are clear about what the Bible says and precise about what they believe and how they live.

Selah.

 

[dms1972]

I agree, and now that I think of it there are probably more threads aimed at getting those with strong convictions about what constitutes Biblical or Scripture Christianity to loosen up on those.

My problem is with the threads designed to make others theological views look ridiculous. Why don't people just get on with their own theology?

 

[aiki]

My problem is with the threads designed to make others theological views look ridiculous. Why don't people just get on with their own theology?

There is only one true theology. And if you believe you are in possession of that one true theology, then, given the enormous value of it, you are obliged, I think, to share it. What could be more vital than to know the true nature and character of God? What could be more important than to know the truth about the Ground of All Reality? And how evil a thing to allow people to go on in a corrupt and false belief about God! Nothing could be more fundamentally and eternally devastating than to embrace a lie about the Creator of All Things. It is an evil person, then, who knows the truth about God and yet allows those who do not to "just get on with their own theology."

Selah.

 

[dms1972]

Thanks for the replies.

 

[dms1972]

-

 

[dms1972]

What you are concentrating on is a lot of stuff. Past experiences, feeling, a like depression at times and a bunch of Christians that do not particularly impress you.

And none of that matters.

So how is your walk with Jesus? He's the only one who matters. He is the only one who can forgive your sin and you need to take care if that.

Yes some of that I am focused on. But also I have two or three conflicting theological teachings going round in my head...

 

[aiki]

And how will you resolve these conflicting teachings? Clue: the Bible has all the answers.

Selah.

 

[hedrick]

I think I have a misunderstanding on justification in the ordo salvation, perhaps because reading different theologies and my own thinking about it.

Pretty much everyone agrees that Alister McGrath’s 2-book set on justification is the standard historical study of justification. The major writers he presents each has a slightly different ordo salutis. My preference is for Calvin’s. For him, salvation results from God’s action to save us. We grasp that in faith. Based on this, there are two consequences, each of which is a key part of salvation. They are justification and sanctification. (Calvin himself doesn’t use that terminology as consistently as some, by the way.) Justification is our status as part of God’s people. Sanctification is our Christian life, which one hopes is growing into the likeness of Christ, though the reality is usually less ideal. I see justification in this sense as the bedrock under our existence as Christians. It’s based on Christ’s death for us, and doesn’t change even when we sin.

Whether this is the right exegesis of Paul is a matter people have argued about for centuries. My reading of Galatians is that justification is what defines us as God’s people. For us, it’s what defines us as Christians, but of course Paul uses it for people in the OT as well, so “God’s people” seems most accurate. It’s not how we become God’s people: that’s what God does for us in Christ. That clarification is needed, because sometimes people think that their faith is the thing that saves them. That then leads to having to judge our faith, which ends up turning faith into a work. No, what makes us God’s people is God. But justification is the key defining characteristic of being God’s people. We’re defined as Christians by the fact that we’re Christ’s followers, which is Jesus’ equivalent to Paul’s concept of faith.

For me, justification by faith is important because it captures the emphasis that both Jesus and Paul place on forgiveness. Jesus is very clear that God doesn’t abandon us when we sin. We’re still his children. Just disobedient ones.

This bothers a lot of people. It’s risky to maintain that not even serious sins interrupt our relationship with God. It’s risky because it seems to give people a license to sin. But if we don’t take that risk, we’re trying to motivate the Christian life by fear. But little good comes out of people living in fear. Motivation affects the things we do. Acts motivated by fear are going to be legalistic and at times counter-productive. For Jesus, doing the right thing comes from love of God and neighbor. Paul sees the Law at best as a disciplinarian. But now that faith has come, we no longer need that. Read Gal 3:19-4:7. Paul is willing to take the risk of saying that we don’t need the law to motivate us. We are now free.

What’s interesting is that Jesus doesn’t seem to talk about a personal relationship with him, or all the other things that tend to make people wonder whether they’re really Christians if they don’t feel the right things. For him, being a follower is shown by making a difference for other people. And not just big things. Giving someone a cup of water will bring a reward.

 

[sarah_beloved]

Hello beloved dms1972!

Do you feel like you might be emphasizing a little too much on theology? Not that it is not important, but if you are already as confused, why add to the confusion? I like to read articles and books on theology too myself, but I have realized that my "best" moments with God comes not from these. It comes when I write journal entries to God, because He is my "Dear diary" now. It comes when I turn off the lights and sing worship songs like no one is listening. It comes when after a terrible day at work, I sit alone in my room and cry to God, and His presence was so strong that all the frustrations simply melted away. And the best part is when I talk to my 9 year old about Jesus.

I particularly love this passage by Francis Chan. "I want to know the thoughts of God. I want to gather with people who have been reading God’s words, people who have prayed and interacted with him. I want to fellowship with those who fellowship with God. I couldn’t care less if you have a doctorate in theology or sixty years of life experience. I would rather talk with a fifteen-year-old who has been in the presence of God."
http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/the-greatest-thing-you-could-do-today

It is mentioned numerous times in the Bible that God will be found by those who sincerely seek Him. It is declared by God Himself, so fret now. Don't put your trust in your faith - put your trust in His love. It never fails.

 

[dms1972]

Do you feel like you might be emphasizing a little too much on theology? Not that it is not important, but if you are already as confused, why add to the confusion? I like to read articles and books on theology too myself, but I have realized that my "best" moments with God comes not from these.

Thanks Sarah, I probably am reading too many different theologies, I feel I need to read some theology also to understand what the Bible means, to find the right understanding. So rightly or wrongly I read to see what they say Faith means, what Repentance means, that sort of thing, how one comes to faith.


Honestly when I first asked questions I just wanted to know or have an understanding of things - like "what is a christian?", or "what's christian?" - not necessarily to become a christian at that point. This is going back to my childhood so I can't remember clearly, but I'd just be going about and then I'd hear at some point people talking about what christians believe. And I'd go away and questions would be bothering me. So I'd ask "what's a christian" - cause I wanted to know, not that I wanted to become a christian there and then . But then I immediately feel confused about what I want, or that I shouldn't be asking unless I am really interested in becoming a christian. So I began to just do my own studies.

Besides what I understand is that the first disciples where just followers of Jesus, they responded to him they didn't really think in terms of four steps to "becoming a christian" - they had heard that the Messiah was coming because of John the Baptist preaching. Then later these followers began to be called christians. And that all seems simple back then you could go to Jesus and ask Him questions.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I think I have a misunderstanding on justification in the ordo salvation, perhaps because reading different theologies and my own thinking about it.

Justification is really very simple.

It is Jesus ability to forgive our sins and declare us righteous.

To think of it simply, it is Jesus Christ, in His perfection standing in our place as sinners and giving us His righteousness.

Think of it this way. If you are standing in front of the Father on Judgement Day and the Father see's all your sins and then Jesus steps in your place and tells the Father that He is representing you and for the Father to look at Him, not you. The Father would then see His perfect Son without sin. That is what justification is. It is Jesus giving you His perfection by forgiving all of your sins so the Father sees you as He see;s His perfect Son.

That is why Jesus is the ONLY way to the Father. He is our advocate to the Father. He stands in our place because when He died on the cross, He took the sins of the world upon Himself, so He could stand in your place.

1 John 2:1
1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

1 Timothy 2:4-5
4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all,

Hebrews 9:15
For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

 

[Albion]

OK, dms, the above seems like a pretty lucid explanation of justification. Where are you conflicted, having read ToBeLoved's post??

 

[ToBeLoved]

I read to see what they say Faith means, how one comes to faith.

Faith is your belief that Jesus is God and came to earth as a man. That He led a perfect life to be a sacrifice for the sins of all mankind on the cross and that His blood was shed so that your sins could be forgiven.

It is belief in something that is unseen and unproven.

 

[dms1972]

Pretty much everyone agrees that Alister McGrath’s 2-book set on justification is the standard historical study of justification. The major writers he presents each has a slightly different ordo salutis.

Thanks for mentioning Alister McGrath, I have read some of his stuff in the past, and hes a good writer. I am not sure though that Iustitia Dei would be best for me to read - I had a look at the contents and it covers quite a bit, and many different views.

To ToBeLoved

Ok I mentioned Justification a while back because of reviewing in my mind how I may have thought on that in the past but I am not even sure because it was a mixture of Barth's and Luther's thoughts I think.

I certainly connected it with forgiveness, but I don't want to get into the ideas different ideas at this point.

I don't disagree with what you say though

But I'd like to come to an understanding reading the Bible.

 

[dms1972]

Faith is your belief that Jesus is God and came to earth as a man. That He led a perfect life to be a sacrifice for the sins of all mankind on the cross and that His blood was shed so that your sins could be forgiven.

It is belief in something that is unseen and unproven.

I don't accept that proof hangs on everyone accepting it, or that the Bible should be subjected to historical criticism. If you read the Bible and are persuaded its true, then its proven to you.

 

[dms1972]

What’s interesting is that Jesus doesn’t seem to talk about a personal relationship with him, or all the other things that tend to make people wonder whether they’re really Christians if they don’t feel the right things. For him, being a follower is shown by making a difference for other people. And not just big things. Giving someone a cup of water will bring a reward.

Yes that's interesting indeed, I am not disagreeing....



I have wondered about the "personal relationship" notion at times also. But People sometimes have said "Jesus is all you need" particularly at times when I have been seeking support. But what is discipleship does it not involve relationship, The Bible says Jesus is with his disciples till the end of the age. In what sense is he with them?

Where do you think the notion of 'personal relationship with Jesus' has come from?

I can't see how one could not have a relationship with Jesus, if one is a christian. Doesn't the Bible speak of Jesus calling his disciples friends?

 

[sarah_beloved]

To start off, not every individual who calls themselves a Christian is a true Christian. Take for example people who attends church dutifully every Sunday but for the rest of the week, Jesus is kept in a box and left on the shelf. They may even be serving actively in church, but observe carefully and you'll realise they never exactly placed their faith in Christ.

Jesus is with us in the sense that the Holy Spirit dwells in every believer and never leaves - whether or not we realise it.