Hesitating to call myself a christian

[dms1972]

A Christian in Gods eyes is One who is trusting in the finished work of Jesus on the cross for ones personal sin account.

Does this trusting in the finished work of Jesus on the Cross involve being crucified with Christ, or the the crucifixion of the old man?

 

[paul1149]

I suppose I should have just got into the youth fellowship and there'd have been no probs. I wanted to be in something, but it never worked out, just my personality I suppose, a bit independent? I seen the "christian" kids at school who were part of christian groups and they didn't impress me much how they got on with each other anyway. Anyway teens can be immature...

I 've just been trying to get into a church for a bit but I find myself still critical of churches and christians to be honest.

I used to call myself a christian, and say I was if asked, but now I feel hesitant.

I would approach this in layers. The most basic layer is that church membership / participation does not determine whether you are a Christian. Trusting Christ for your salvation, making Him lord of your heart and life, do. This gives you a starting point. You don't have to wait until you fit in to the church, which does have a lot of problems, to be a Christian, to give yourself to God, to start praying earnestly, to start reading scripture intently to see what it has for you, and to start living for the Lord right here and now before any other changes are made.

But then, while the Lord accepts us where we are, He seldom leaves us there. He has plans for us. Plans to grow in grace and truth, and in love. Plans to co-labor in establishing the kingdom on earth. And that usually means interacting with people and the Body.

But don't make the mistake of putting the cart before the horse. That's works-salvation, which doesn't work at all, and will certainly bring fatigue and doubts about whether you really are a Christian.

 

[hedrick]

Trusting in Christ’s work means that you look at what Christ did and that shows you how much he loves you.

It’s not a test. You don’t have to check your trust and find it’s at least a 50 on the trust meter. It’s a way to help you appreciate your salvation, not something you have to do to be saved.

As to whether you’re a Christian. I take the view that being a Christian means you consider yourself a follower of Jesus. It doesn’t mean you’ve met a certain standard. It doesn’t mean you agree with any particular Church. It does mean you recognize his authority over your life, but most of us have a long way to go.

 

[dms1972]

-

 

[dms1972]

I think I have a misunderstanding on justification in the ordo salvation, perhaps because reading different theologies and my own thinking about it.

 

[dms1972]

You don't have to wait until you fit in to the church, which does have a lot of problems, to be a Christian, to give yourself to God, to start praying earnestly, to start reading scripture intently to see what it has for you, and to start living for the Lord right here and now before any other changes are made.

Thansk for your comments - This is what I am not sure probably because of a mixture of theology in my head.

I am inclined to feel all that can only come only in a church, or amongst believers.

 

[paul1149]

Hi,
One has to start somewhere, and the meek and lowly One, out of love, has stooped down to where we are - wherever we may find ourselves - in order to lift us up. If you understand that, you can begin to draw near to Him rather than placing demands on yourself that only get in the way. Only by grace is the heart established and the weak made strong (Heb 13.9; 11.34). The law never perfected anyone, it only condemned (heb 7.19; 2Cor 3). This is a great obstacle to faith for many, as it turns our focus back on our own abilities and locks us into our present condition.

Does God want us as part of the local Body? Yes. That's where our joy, and thus our strength, is made full. But then, there are plenty of people in churches for the wrong reasons. Definitely be attached to the Head and be a part of the Body, and do the best you can regarding its local manifestation. IMO, that's better than putting your relationship with God on hold until you find a place you can fit into.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Ok, a bit of history - I was taken to church services since I was before the age of four. Baptised as an infant, sunday schooled. But I never was really interest in joining youth organisations, the only thing I was willing to do was go to Sunday School. So unlike most teens I was never in a youth fellowship and just stopped going to church during my teens. I went a few times as a teen, completely by myself - unfamiliar churches too. Folks talked to me a bit after the service then pointed at a door and said there's the youth fellowship in there. Well for one thing I wasn't walking in there not knowing anyone! So I drifted. I still listened to loads of CCM music. I wasn't into anything else really (except renting out videos, reading mags ). Pretty depressed at times at not going anywhere and being asked about my weekends, and generally feeling like oddity. So just I just felt a total freak to other christians when they asked me things. Anyway I suppose I should have just got into the youth fellowship and there'd have been no probs. I wanted to be in something, but it never worked out, just my personality I suppose, a bit independent? I seen the "christian" kids at school who were part of christian groups and they didn't impress me much how they got on with each other anyway. Anyway teens can be immature.

So now in my forties and been through some atheistic phases, but really no idea what I quite believe, even though I know about loads of theology.

I 've just been trying to get into a church for a bit but I find myself still critical of churches and christians to be honest.

I used to call myself a christian, and say I was if asked, but now I feel hesitant.

What you are concentrating on is a lot of stuff. Past experiences, feeling, a like depression at times and a bunch of Christians that do not particularly impress you.

And none of that matters.

So how is your walk with Jesus? He's the only one who matters. He is the only one who can forgive your sin and you need to take care if that.

Sin is what keeps people out of heaven. See why you need Jesus?

No Jesus = No heaven

Got Jesus = Got heaven

If you believe Jesus is God who was born on earth to live a perfect life so He can forgive your sin then you are much farther along then most.

Tell Jesus you need Him to forgive your sin. Tell Him that you need your sin forgiven and ask Him too.

He will.

Follow and walk with Jesus.

 

[Emmy]

Dear dms 1972. Perhaps this will help a bit. In Matthew 22: 35-40: Jesus tells us: " The first and great Commandment says: Love God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. The second is like it:
love thy neighbour as thyself." In verse 40 we are told: " On these two Commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." God is Love, and God wants loving sons and daughters. We ask for Love and Joy, (Matthew 7: 7-10
then we thank God and share all love and joy with our neighbour. ( neighbour is all we know and all we meet, friends and not friends) We keep asking for Love and Joy, then thank God and share it all with our neighbour. We might stumble and forget sometimes, but then we ask God to forgive us, and carry on loving and caring, being kind and helpful. God sees our loving efforts, and God will Bless us.
The Bible tells us to " Repent and be Born Again," we give up our selfish wishes and wants, and start loving and caring. The Holy Spirit will help and guide us, and Jesus our Saviour will lead us all the way: JESUS IS THE WAY.
Remember to ask and receive, then thank God and share all love and joy with our neighbour. To do God`s Will is to be a Christian, and Christ will lead us. I say this with love, dms. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.

 

[dhh712]

I don't think faith in a particular understanding is what will help.

Faith I have read means Union with Christ.

But there comes a point were one must decide it seems to me.

Decide about what? Whether you believe in God? Do you trust that Christ's work was perfect and that he can stand in righteousness before God? Do you trust that his sacrifice on the cross is sufficient penalty for all sin? To me, that is the only thing that makes sense. To believe in God for anything else, to me at least, doesn't make any sense.

On the other issue of Biblical inerrancy, I am not sure.

If someone tells me the Bible has errors, or if I start to think that it does it causes problems in believing.

Here's sort of how I think about it.

One could say that it's not the bible one is to have faith in but the events upon which the New Testament is based. But to know of those events does one not need confidence in the New testament record? If then as some people say the Bible has errors, what are these errors in particular? Because its easy to get the notion 'the Bible has errors' without knowing, or being able to state one single particular error in fact, and therefore I would have to suppose be also able to state the true way of things.

So this vague "the Bible has errors" notion comes from somewhere, but usually not actual demonstrated errors. It is more a case of a position, or a view a person without faith moves to sometimes from hearing difficulties discussed. Its a premature conclusion. But I have moved to that at times in my life particularly in childhood.

The person of faith continues to be confident in spite of difficulties, they believe they can be resolved, that they are due to lack of understanding, and won't turn out to be real errors.

But sometimes something else happens people conclude yes there are errors and continue to believe anyway - this is neo-orthodoxy. Its seems to be Karl Barth's and Emil Brunner's position.

OK so the question one must begin with is what constitutes a real error.

Spelling variations and minor wording variations are not errors. So there has to be a definite error shown imo - which would mean one must also know the truth, or one cannot be sure there is an error. Or can one know where there is an error without knowing what way things actually were?

But none of us are in position of Peter, or the first disciples. That is to say we all are in need of being told by hearing or reading about what took place, so we are dependent on the first disciples.


Additionally if there are actual errors - and one know what those are - the rest is not in doubt because of those.

So basically one comes with either a believing or a non-believing attitude to the Bible.

The difficulty is I sometimes feel non-believing about it all, but that maybe has to do with a climate of unbelief, criticism to some extent. point.

I think you're right about how we either have a believing non-believing attitude toward the Bible. In my opinion, it seems that it would be necessary to base one's belief in God on something other than something that came of this world, since everything in this world has been corrupted even our own understanding of things. I see the Bible as the only thing that exists which is outside of this world in that the words came directly from God. Therefore they are accurate and there are no errors because God is perfect, Jesus being the very word of God. There may be what seem like errors and inaccuracies but that is just because we our limited in our understanding of God since he is infinite an we are finite.

To me it makes little sense to base one's Christians beliefs on the original manuscripts of the Bible if we think it has errors in it. There will be errors in translations of it because those translations are done by humans and will have errors due to how humans are not perfect. But to think that the original word of God has errors in it, to me that will invalidate your entire Christian foundation. What if the resurrection of Christ was recorded in error then? If Christ has not been raised from the dead, then we of all people on the earth are to be most pitied. If the only hope for Christ is to be in this world then we should live for it and not the next for then there is nothing after this.

I think it would be nice if everything in the Bible made sense to us and could be verified as accurate before we believe in God. Yet it seems to me that that places us in the judge's seat and not God. We must understand that God will not bow himself to us and make himself acceptable in our eyes before we believe in him. He gives us our understanding of him and makes himself revealed to us in whatever he in his wisdom has seen is best for us to know of him at that time. We are not the judge of him, but he of us.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I don't think faith in a particular understanding is what will help.

Faith I have read means Union with Christ.

This is not what faith means. Faith is a belief in something that is not seen.

Faith IS EXACTLY what Christ asks of us. Faith is what brings us salvation.

I am hoping that you look into what faith is Biblically and realize how it pertains to your eternal destiny. That is in your very best interest and I hope that you do that.

Bless you.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I also hope that we do not further confuse the OP as his question problem is fairly simple and IMHO not as heavy into theology as some have made it seem.

What new or perspective Christians need is the gospel. The GOOD NEWS which is wonderful indeed.

 

[dms1972]

I read that regarding faith is union with Christ in a theology text - i'll grant that not all theology is correct biblically so the writter might be in error. I would have to check where it was I read it as it was some time ago. It might just be his way of putting it. I'll check where it came from. Theology does tend to summarise things, and I am not sure it always helps, because one can simply have an understanding of theology, and yet think to oneself - I have faith.

 

[de1929]

Ok, a bit of history - I was taken to church services since I was before the age of four. Baptised as an infant, sunday schooled. But I never was really interest in joining youth organisations, the only thing I was willing to do was go to Sunday School. So unlike most teens I was never in a youth fellowship and just stopped going to church during my teens. I went a few times as a teen, completely by myself - unfamiliar churches too. Folks talked to me a bit after the service then pointed at a door and said there's the youth fellowship in there. Well for one thing I wasn't walking in there not knowing anyone! So I drifted. I still listened to loads of CCM music. I wasn't into anything else really (except renting out videos, reading mags ). Pretty depressed at times at not going anywhere and being asked about my weekends, and generally feeling like oddity. So just I just felt a total freak to other christians when they asked me things. Anyway I suppose I should have just got into the youth fellowship and there'd have been no probs. I wanted to be in something, but it never worked out, just my personality I suppose, a bit independent? I seen the "christian" kids at school who were part of christian groups and they didn't impress me much how they got on with each other anyway. Anyway teens can be immature.

So now in my forties and been through some atheistic phases, but really no idea what I quite believe, even though I know about loads of theology.

I 've just been trying to get into a church for a bit but I find myself still critical of churches and christians to be honest.

I used to call myself a christian, and say I was if asked, but now I feel hesitant.

take a look at my WWJD thread at my siggy, it should be a yardstick of good christian is. what do you think ?

 

[hedrick]

I am not sure about this - i know it point of difference amongst christians, and I know Luther counselled "remember your baptism" however I was listening last night to a sermon of Martin Lloyd Jones (calvinist) - and hes very much against taking assurance merely from having been baptised.

It’s important to understand in what sense you can and can’t find assurance from baptism. Baptism isn’t magic. It doesn’t guarantee that someone who rejects God will end up in heaven.

However what it does do is reassure us of God’s love for us. It takes the abstract teachings in the Bible and makes them personal. Not just that we find in the Bible that God loves us, but that God has actually placed his mark on us personally. Sure, we can reject his call. But that’s not usually the issue. People looking for reassurance about God’s love aren’t generally atheists who have rejected God. They are people who want to be Christians, but aren’t sure they’re good enough or have enough faith. For the people who care about God’s attitude towards them, we can safely say that God loves and accepts all of them, and in fact he called them from before they were born. Baptism testifies to that.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I don't think faith in a particular understanding is what will help.
Faith I have read means Union with Christ.

What does the Bible say that faith means?

If you are basing your knowledge off of what people tell you, you are on a long, rocky road of misunderstanding.


Question: "What is the definition of faith?"


Answer: Thankfully, the Bible contains a clear definition of faith in Hebrews 11:1: “Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.” Simply put, the biblical definition of faith is “trusting in something you cannot explicitly prove.”

This definition of faith contains two aspects: intellectual assent and trust. Intellectual assent is believing something to be true. Trust is actually relying on the fact that the something is true. A chair is often used to help illustrate this. Intellectual assent is recognizing that a chair is a chair and agreeing that it is designed to support a person who sits on it. Trust is actually sitting in the chair.

Understanding these two aspects of faith is crucial. Many people believe certain facts about Jesus Christ. Many people will intellectually agree with the facts the Bible declares about Jesus. But knowing those facts to be true is not what the Bible means by “faith.” The biblical definition of faith requires intellectual assent to the facts and trust in the facts.

Believing that Jesus is God incarnate who died on the cross to pay the penalty for our sins and was resurrected is not enough. Even the demons believe in God and in those facts (cf. James 2:19). We must personally and fully rely on the death of Christ as the atoning sacrifice for our sins. We must “sit in the chair” of the salvation that Jesus Christ has provided. This is saving faith. The faith God requires of us for salvation is belief in what the Bible says about who Jesus is and what He accomplished and fully trusting in Jesus for that salvation (Acts 16:31). Biblical faith is always accompanied by repentance of sin (Matthew 21:32; Mark 1:15).

The biblical definition of faith does not apply only to salvation. It is equally applicable to the rest of the Christian life. We are to believe what the Bible says, and we are to obey it. We are to believe the promises of God, and we are to live accordingly. We are to agree with the truth of God’s Word, and we are to allow ourselves to be transformed by it (Romans 12:2).

Why is this definition of faith so important? Why must trust accompany agreeing with facts? Because “without faith, it is impossible to please God” (Hebrews 11:6). Without faith, we cannot be saved (John 3:16). Without faith, the Christian life cannot be what God intends it to be (John 10:10).


Retrieved from: http://www.gotquestions.org/definition-of-faith.html

 

[NJA]

In the bible God gave independent witness when it was questioned who was of Him.
In the New Testament we see the sign of speaking in tongues when people became Christian by receiving Hisd Spirit (Acts 2:4, 33, 39; 10:44-48; Romans 8:8-9, 15-16)

 

[dms1972]

What does the Bible say that faith means?

If you are basing your knowledge off of what people tell you, you are on a long, rocky road of misunderstanding.

I don't disagree with you, but why all the books, theologies, etc. If I go to a church I am supposed to listen to the minister. The first converts heard it from Peter and Paul - so for them it was based on being told by others.

When I go to church it seems at times like there are christians who rely pretty much on their minister to relay to them the what the Bible says and explain it. I feel I am wrong to be independent, that I should be more teachable. When I go to a church I have quite often not felt part of what is going on - that they are engaged in some program that I don't actually know anything about. Whereas in the past it was more the case one could go to a church and hear the gospel preached, the service was outreach oriented. But now the outreach has a different form (in some churches at least), its not the minister doing it, rather he's telling or organising the congregation to do it. Its aimed at training those who come to the services, to go out and reach others. I am not saying that is wrong, but its a shift from what I grew up with. And I don't know how to get into it, I think its a bit like having missed lessons in school.

Then having grown up going to church I began to get an 'understanding' of sorts and I could explain things to people, but I don't think this was faith. In fact I wondered at times had I explained the gospel wrong. I knew 'Jesus died for me', and often thanked God in a prayer for this. But merely knowing this and saying thanks isn't faith IMO, faith means something more like being taken out of myself.

I read your post, and the illustration of the chair. Some would describe it as a throne one is sitting on and that one needs to get off the throne, and let Jesus sit there.

What do you think of that illustration?

 

[ToBeLoved]

I don't disagree with you, but why all the books, theologies, etc. If I go to a church I am supposed to listen to the minister. The first converts heard it from Peter and Paul - so for them it was based on being told by others.

When I go to church it seems at times like there are christians who rely pretty much on their minister to relay to them the what the Bible says and explain it. I feel I am wrong to be independent, that I should be more teachable. When I go to a church I have quite often not felt part of what is going on - that they are engaged in some program that I don't actually know anything about. Whereas in the past it was more the case one could go to a church and hear the gospel preached, the service was outreach oriented. But now the outreach has a different form (in some churches at least), its not the minister doing it, rather he's telling or organising the congregation to do it. Its aimed at training those who come to the services, to go out and reach others. I am not saying that is wrong, but its a shift from what I grew up with. And I don't know how to get into it, I think its a bit like having missed lessons in school.

Then having grown up going to church I began to get an 'understanding' of sorts and I could explain things to people, but I don't think this was faith. In fact I wondered at times had I explained the gospel wrong. I knew 'Jesus died for me', and often thanked God in a prayer for this. But merely knowing this and saying thanks isn't faith IMO, faith means something more like being taken out of myself.

I read your post, and the illustration of the chair. Some would describe it as a throne one is sitting on and that one needs to get off the throne, and let Jesus sit there.

What do you think of that illustration?

It is really a misnomer that people do not like to be told what to do. In matters of God, many people want to be told exactly who God is by someone else. People would much rather follow a theology of someone else or a church then to find the truth for themselves. That is an easy road for most that consists regualarly of a sunday service.

What they fail to see is that Christ died to be in relationship with us. To have the Holy Spirit, God Himself indwelling our hearts.

No one else but you can build upon your own saving faith. That is YOUR WALK WITH GOD.

Many preach of the laws of Moses and what one must do and what one must not do. And people like having clear boundaries and knowing a clear path. But the object of God WITH us is not cut and dry. A sermon.

Each of us must choose our church very wisely. A Bible-based church is best.

 

[ldonjohn]

Christian faith is not 'beliefs' is my current understanding - faith is more outward towards a person, not self-regarding, not just assent to statements, even if it includes that.

Yet I find myself trying to believe the Bible inspite of people, including people who call themselves christian who are skeptical of the Bible. They don't hesitate much about calling themselve christian (unfortately) but they leave others uncertain.

So basically I feel very little confidence in what a lot of christians say - what they are usually explaining is just their version in a way, or some understanding that works for them.

I'll take a look at the book you mention

dms1972,

You appear to be in a state of confusion about becoming a Christian that is very similar to my own struggle with "believing in Jesus" that I went through as a young adult.

I talked to other Christians about what "believing" means, I also read books and tracts about becoming a Christian, but could not get any convincing answers to my question about the truth of Christianity. I did find those answers, and if you are interested in knowing how I found total peace & assurance of knowing my sins are forgiven & that my eternity is secure in the Gospel message I invite you to read my testimony in the following post.

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/im-so-confused.7929734/page-3#post-69302204

John