heretical thoughts on human origins

[lesliedellow]

yeah, it's ok for them, back in those days, so that they could understand it, but it's still based on the sumerian cosmology, in my opinion, and it is not the truth about creation, the earth or the universe.

Yes it is the truth about creation, the Earth and the universe. They were created by God, we were given responsibility for creation, or that part of it which we inhabit, and we failed to fulfill that role miserably.

if god was involved, he would have described the creation as it truly is, even if they wouldn't understand it.

Even if God had wanted to deliver a scientific theory of creation (and there is no reason why he should) he would first of all have had to teach them about higher mathematics, General Relativity and Quantum Field Theory. And that is just for the currently accepted theory which, like all scientific theories, is provisional.

 

[SkyWriting]

Dear Sky, I agree that Jesus is the only Son of God, but He was not one of the sons of God. The sons of God are natural people whose origin was in the water on the 5th Day. Science calls them Prehistoric people.In Love,
Aman

And because there is water in the Cosmos, then there are people there. Nope.

God only put people (and likely life) on this one planet then sent His one Son here as well to save us. There are no others out there. And any life would just be wasted out there as well.

Scientifically speaking, with the cosmos continuing to expand, it wouldn't be worth the effort to send a camera to find life, because the pictures wouldn't have time to get back to us before the sun goes cold.

 

[Aman777]

Aman:>>Dear Sky, I agree that Jesus is the only Son of God, but He was not one of the sons of God. The sons of God are natural people whose origin was in the water on the 5th Day. Science calls them Prehistoric people.
​

Sky:>>And because there is water in the Cosmos, then there are people there. Nope.

Dear Sky, There were people in Adam's world which was made the 2nd Day (Genesis 1:6-8) and there are people in our world which was not made until the 3rd Day. (Genesis 2:4) Can you explain why people are in both worlds but NOT all over the universe? and how do you know?

Sky:>>God only put people (and likely life) on this one planet then sent His one Son here as well to save us. There are no others out there. And any life would just be wasted out there as well.

God put HUMANS on this one planet (since there was only 1 Ark) but it's a real stretch to say that there is no life in the rest of our Cosmos. God commanded that life be created and brought forth from the water on the 5th Day (Genesis 1:20) and it came forth on Adam's world and our's. Does God's commandment stop with our planet?

Sky:>>Scientifically speaking, with the cosmos continuing to expand, it wouldn't be worth the effort to send a camera to find life, because the pictures wouldn't have time to get back to us before the sun goes cold.

You are assuming that God's method of transportation is the same as today's. It's not, as is demonstrated by the fact that Paul was taken to the third heaven, (ll Corinthians 12:2) and Enoch, and Jesus, were also transported in a moment in the twinkling of an eye. At the Rapture ALL Christians will also meet the LORD in the air. Do you think that we will all get on board a rocket? God's method of transportation is much more advanced than our's. He could speak us to anywhere He wishes.

In Love,
Aman

 

[SkyWriting]

Dear Sky, There were people in Adam's world which was made the 2nd Day (Genesis 1:6-8) and there are people in our world which was not made until the 3rd Day. (Genesis 2:4) Can you explain why people are in both worlds but NOT all over the universe? and how do you know?

Wow, you make this hard. Because Jesus is not there for them.
Therefore, they do not exist. Plus the Holy Spirit is here
and nowhere else. Plus Gods chosen people are here and
are documented. Plus Adam is the Only line. The list is endless.
There is only one universe, and this planet is it. The rest is
a display of the grandness of our Creator and will also be tossed
in the lake of fire at the end. What a shame if there are people
who never had Jesus to save them. They don't exist.

 

[Aman777]

Aman:>>Dear Sky, There were people in Adam's world which was made the 2nd Day (Genesis 1:6-8) and there are people in our world which was not made until the 3rd Day. (Genesis 2:4) Can you explain why people are in both worlds but NOT all over the universe? and how do you know?
​

Sky:>>Wow, you make this hard. Because Jesus is not there for them.
Therefore, they do not exist.

Dear Sky, The Gentiles were on this earth long before Jesus walked here. IOW, they exisited without Christ. They were not created in God's Image, or in Christ, but they existed physically.

Sky:>>Plus the Holy Spirit is here
and nowhere else.

You don't believe the Holy Spirit is in the third Heaven? and on Earth? We know that God and Jesus are in the third heaven, which means that the Holy Spirit is there also, since in Christ dwelleth ALL of the fulness of the Godhead, bodily. Colossians 1:15

Sky:>>Plus Gods chosen people are here and
are documented. Plus Adam is the Only line. The list is endless.

Can you tell us where the Gentiles came from? Jesus died for our line, too. Also Jesus tells us of others:

Jhn 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear My voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Sky:>>There is only one universe, and this planet is it.

Not according to Genesis 1:6-8, which identifies the first heaven as being made in the midst of the water on the SECOND day. Our heaven and the third heaven were not made until the THIRD day. Genesis 2:4, the SAME day the first earth was made. Scripture does not tell us the total number of heavenS made, but it does identify at least THREE.

Sky:>>The rest is
a display of the grandness of our Creator and will also be tossed
in the lake of fire at the end. What a shame if there are people
who never had Jesus to save them. They don't exist.

I can't agree since Genesis 1:21 tells us God "created" them on the 5th Day. God creates only 3 times in the story of the creation, and everytime He creates, it is an eternal creation. Also, God calls them the "sons of God" and only calls humans the sons of God AFTER they are born again.

I know the things I post are hard to bear but they are Scriptural. Please don't think that I am trying to fool anyone. I'm just trying to edify the Church, and bring us all to a better understanding of God's Truth.

In Love,
Aman

 

[Aman777]

The big bang was the moment of creation, and that was 13.7 billion years ago. We finally turned up about 200,000 years ago.

Dear les, The first day of the creation was 2 days BEFORE the Big Bang which was on the 3rd Day. Genesis 2:4 The beginning of our universe was on the same day the first earth was made. Genesis 1:9-10 shows that it was the THIRD day.

You are confusing the time when natural man (Prehistoric man) became like us physically, with the time when we inherited the human intelligence of Adam. This was after the Ark arrived some 10k years ago. This is confirmed by History which shows that Human civilization, on this earth, can be traced to northern Mesopotamia, just south of the mountains of Ararat.

In Love,
Aman

 

[granpa]

Dear les, The first day of the creation was 2 days BEFORE the Big Bang which was on the 3rd Day. Genesis 2:4 The beginning of our universe was on the same day the first earth was made. Genesis 1:9-10 shows that it was the THIRD day.

You are confusing the time when natural man (Prehistoric man) became like us physically, with the time when we inherited the human intelligence of Adam. This was after the Ark arrived some 10k years ago. This is confirmed by History which shows that Human civilization, on this earth, can be traced to northern Mesopotamia, just south of the mountains of Ararat.

In Love,
Aman

firmament was created on the 2nd day
therefore the big bang happened on the 2nd day

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

 

[hiscosmicgoldfish]

the firmament is the space between the water below and the water above, as in the sumerian cosmology. it's not outer space; they had no idea about that.
it's time to part ways with YECs who say that the genesis account is the infallible word of God, it isn't.

 

[granpa]

the separation of water and air (the creation of the ocean) occurred later on the second day

We are getting off-topic

For reference here is the op:

I noticed when reading through the first chapters of genesis again, that the account of the Tower of Babel seems to be stuck in the body of the text rather randomly, like it was an old legend that someone had remembered, or was on clay tablets perhaps, and then written into the bible when it was finally written down.
There is no indication that the account is talking about before or after the flood. It says that people settled in Mesopotamia, (a plain in the land of Shinar) but that they had migrated there from the east; Persia. They spoke one language. God (or the gods?) came down (presumably from heaven?), had a look around at the city and the tower (probably a Ziggurat), and didn’t like the way the population was getting uppity, so dispersed them around the world.

So this suggests that the population at some early time in history came from Persia, then on to Mesopotamia, then out into the world.
However in the genealogical account of the descendants of Noah, it lists a number of generations;

10 These are the generations of the sons of Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japheth. Sons were born to them after the flood.

2 The sons of Japheth: Gomer, Magog, Madai, Javan, Tubal, Meshech, and Tiras. 3 The sons of Gomer: Ashkenaz, Riphath, and Togarmah. 4 The sons of Javan: Elishah, Tarshish, Kittim, and Dodanim. 5 From these the coastland peoples spread in their lands, each with his own language, by their clans, in their nations.

Noah.. Japheth.. Gomer.. Ashkenaz. Four generations after the flood. each with his own language.

So where is the Tower of Babel account to fit.. if these tribes were all speaking their own languages? I’ve heard that the Tower of Babel account is after the flood (although it dosn't say that). It’s placed in the bible in chapter 11, right after the genealogy of Noah descendants, but it is probably placed there in the bible like that as it is a ‘stand-alone’ account of origins going back to east of Mesopotamia, (and it had to be put somewhere) and this convention has probably influenced what people think; that it is after the flood. But it is contrary to what was written before; that the early descendants of Noah were speaking different languages.

As it doesn’t say whether this account of Babel is before or after the flood, and it contradicts the other account in chapter 10, then this might be an independent memory, of civilisation originating in the east somewhere. It takes a while to chew over these things.
Another thing I noticed, is that Cain is the son of Adam and Eve, and he kills Abel, and then he runs off in exile, out of the land where he was living, and he was worried that he would be killed by people when he went away on his wanderings.

But who were these people, if Cain was the original son, where did these people come from? I just noticed it as I was reading. If they were his brothers, that's possible I suppose, but it struck me that these other people were already out there, as he was running off into another land, after having killed Abel... a recent event... where did these other nations come from, if they were already out there as a population?

It says a bit later that Adam and Eve had Seth, a replacement for Abel. So where is there mention of all these other sons, somewhere around the time of Cain; Seth might be the next notable person to come along, or Seth might be the next son after Cain, in which case, all these people out there near the land of Nod, would need to be Cain's sons and daughters.

Unless this is a record of the origins of one people group, going back to Adam and Eve. But there were other people groups out there as well.

 

[Aman777]

Granpa:>>firmament was created on the 2nd day
therefore the big bang happened on the 2nd day

Dear Granpa, This was the beginning of the first heaven, which was later destroyed by the water into which it was placed.

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

See? The following is the formation of the beginning of our heaven and the third heaven:

Gen 2:4 ¶These [are] the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

These verses are adding information about the THIRD day. Notice that the account is speaking of heavenS (Plural). It's not a mistake, but the first time the plural term for heavens is used in Scripture. Notice also that the "earth" was made the THIRD day according to Genesis 1:9-10.

Gen 2:5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew:

This verse confirms the day again, since it was the THIRD day the plants grew according to Genesis 1:12.

Read on and you will see that man was formed of the dust of the ground on the THIRD day, after the first earth was made but BEFORE the plants grew on the 3rd Day. I realize that this goes against the traditional story, but it agrees in every way with God's Holy Word.

Man was formed physically on the 3rd Day but was not "created in God's Image" until the 6th Day. This shows that Adam was born again or born Spiritually on the 6th Day. Eve was also created in God's Image at the SAME time and Eve wasn't even made until the 6th Day. Genesis 2:22.

Adam, like all men was first made on the 3rd Day but was not born again until the 6th Day. This gives mankind preeminence or first place in the Creation. We are destined to have dominion over every other living creature in heaven. Genesis 1:28

In Love,
Aman

 

[Aman777]

His:>>the firmament is the space between the water below and the water above, as in the sumerian cosmology. it's not outer space; they had no idea about that.
it's time to part ways with YECs who say that the genesis account is the infallible word of God, it isn't.

Dear His, Sure it is. The problem is with your idea that the firmament was an open space. We are later told that the firmament had windows in it. Genesis 7:11 The firmament is the boundary of the first heaven and protected the interior land of the first heaven from the water into which it was placed. What you have shown is that ONLY God could have written Genesis.

In Love,
Aman

 

[granpa]

Comparative mythology chart/Bible1 - Religion-wiki
Comparative mythology chart/Bible2 - Religion-wiki

Spoiler: very large image

 

[granpa]

His:>>the firmament is the space between the water below and the water above, as in the sumerian cosmology. it's not outer space; they had no idea about that.
it's time to part ways with YECs who say that the genesis account is the infallible word of God, it isn't.

Dear His, Sure it is. The problem is with your idea that the firmament was an open space. We are later told that the firmament had windows in it. Genesis 7:11 The firmament is the boundary of the first heaven and protected the interior land of the first heaven from the water into which it was placed. What you have shown is that ONLY God could have written Genesis.

In Love,
Aman

Perhaps you are thinking something like this:
http://www.christianforums.com/t7671641/

 

[granpa]

I see what you are saying about man created on day 3.
I'm seriously considering it as one of many possibilities.

 

[hiscosmicgoldfish]

His:>>the firmament is the space between the water below and the water above, as in the sumerian cosmology. it's not outer space; they had no idea about that.
it's time to part ways with YECs who say that the genesis account is the infallible word of God, it isn't.

Dear His, Sure it is. The problem is with your idea that the firmament was an open space. We are later told that the firmament had windows in it. Genesis 7:11 The firmament is the boundary of the first heaven and protected the interior land of the first heaven from the water into which it was placed. What you have shown is that ONLY God could have written Genesis.

In Love,
Aman

i don't understand that. i see it as what hugh ross illustrated in his book about job, the way the ancients visualised the universe, as a primordial ocean, with a number of levels going up and down. under was the underworld, and the earth came up out of the water. then Tiamat the goddess was divided, and Tiamat symbolised the order out of chaos, the water going up into the outer heaven. the firmament was atmosphere, and inside were placed the sun moon and stars.
and god created light, and separated the light from the darkness; the order out of chaos, the first day. later the sun and moon are created.
hugh ross has it that there was a cloud cover over the primordial earth, and the sun and moon appeared as the clouds cleared. rubbish.
but all that is similar to what we are forced to think about, with our universe; it has a boundary, but what is outside of the boundary? i don't understand that, and i doubt if anyone inderstands it. if there is nothing outside the boundary, how can that be?
I suppose the ancients just accepted that they could not comprehend their visualisation of their universe. that's what it said in the bible, and leave it at that.

 

[granpa]

Granpa:>>firmament was created on the 2nd day
therefore the big bang happened on the 2nd day

Dear Granpa, This was the beginning of the first heaven, which was later destroyed by the water into which it was placed.

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

See? The following is the formation of the beginning of our heaven and the third heaven:

Gen 2:4 ¶These [are] the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

These verses are adding information about the THIRD day. Notice that the account is speaking of heavenS (Plural). It's not a mistake, but the first time the plural term for heavens is used in Scripture. Notice also that the "earth" was made the THIRD day according to Genesis 1:9-10.

Gen 2:5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew:

This verse confirms the day again, since it was the THIRD day the plants grew according to Genesis 1:12.

Read on and you will see that man was formed of the dust of the ground on the THIRD day, after the first earth was made but BEFORE the plants grew on the 3rd Day. I realize that this goes against the traditional story, but it agrees in every way with God's Holy Word.

Man was formed physically on the 3rd Day but was not "created in God's Image" until the 6th Day. This shows that Adam was born again or born Spiritually on the 6th Day. Eve was also created in God's Image at the SAME time and Eve wasn't even made until the 6th Day. Genesis 2:22.

Adam, like all men was first made on the 3rd Day but was not born again until the 6th Day. This gives mankind preeminence or first place in the Creation. We are destined to have dominion over every other living creature in heaven. Genesis 1:28

In Love,
Aman

I have added that possibility to my chart that I linked to in post #32
(you may have to bypass your cache to refresh the image)

• Internet Explorer: hold down the Ctrl key and click the Refresh or Reload button, or press Ctrl+F5.
• Firefox: hold down the Shift key while clicking Reload; alternatively press Ctrl+F5 or Ctrl-Shift-R.
• Opera users have to clear their caches through Tools→Preferences
• Konqueror and Safari users can just click the Reload button.
• Chrome: press Ctrl+F5 or Shift+F5

The firmament is indeed periodically destroyed and recreated but I'm not sure it follows the pattern that you are seeing.

 

[granpa]

His:>>the firmament is the space between the water below and the water above, as in the sumerian cosmology. it's not outer space; they had no idea about that.
it's time to part ways with YECs who say that the genesis account is the infallible word of God, it isn't.

Dear His, Sure it is. The problem is with your idea that the firmament was an open space. We are later told that the firmament had windows in it. Genesis 7:11 The firmament is the boundary of the first heaven and protected the interior land of the first heaven from the water into which it was placed. What you have shown is that ONLY God could have written Genesis.

In Love,
Aman

Think 4 dimensionally

 

[granpa]

Granpa:>>firmament was created on the 2nd day
therefore the big bang happened on the 2nd day

Dear Granpa, This was the beginning of the first heaven, which was later destroyed by the water into which it was placed.

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

See? The following is the formation of the beginning of our heaven and the third heaven:

Gen 2:4 ¶These [are] the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

These verses are adding information about the THIRD day. Notice that the account is speaking of heavenS (Plural). It's not a mistake, but the first time the plural term for heavens is used in Scripture. Notice also that the "earth" was made the THIRD day according to Genesis 1:9-10.

Gen 2:5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew:

This verse confirms the day again, since it was the THIRD day the plants grew according to Genesis 1:12.

Read on and you will see that man was formed of the dust of the ground on the THIRD day, after the first earth was made but BEFORE the plants grew on the 3rd Day. I realize that this goes against the traditional story, but it agrees in every way with God's Holy Word.

Man was formed physically on the 3rd Day but was not "created in God's Image" until the 6th Day. This shows that Adam was born again or born Spiritually on the 6th Day. Eve was also created in God's Image at the SAME time and Eve wasn't even made until the 6th Day. Genesis 2:22.

Adam, like all men was first made on the 3rd Day but was not born again until the 6th Day. This gives mankind preeminence or first place in the Creation. We are destined to have dominion over every other living creature in heaven. Genesis 1:28

In Love,
Aman

Good insight there.
I would encourage you to look at my chart now

Comparative mythology chart/Bible1 - Religion-wiki

 

[Aman777]

Aman:>>Adam, like all men was first made on the 3rd Day but was not born again until the 6th Day. This gives mankind preeminence or first place in the Creation. We are destined to have dominion over every other living creature in heaven. Genesis 1:28

Granpa:>>Good insight there.
I would encourage you to look at my chart now

Comparative mythology chart/Bible1 - Religion-wiki

Dear Granpa, Thanks for the kind words. I have a problem with my Internet Explorer which makes it hard to navigate around the site. If you could point out the position on the chart which you have changed, I would appreciate it.

In Love,
Aman

 

[granpa]

I've changed quite a bit but column 8 is the part you should find interesting

And column 7 is your firmaments. Theres lots of them

between columns 7 and 8 is a red line (its the second red line)


Columns 8, 9, and 10 show the pattern of firmament destruction and recreation that I've known about for a long time. Column 7 is the same pattern but at a different scale