Here's my problem, I believe in evolution, and it brings up doubts especially in the OT...

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Neogaia777

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Here's my problem, I believe in evolution, and it brings up doubts especially in the OT... were the OT writers simply writing what they "thought" and the way they "felt" about God, and not in an actual words God actually said..

Well, my problem is I believe the scientific evidence which casts doubt on some of the Bible writers, BUT, I have too much personal experiencial evidence of a God and other spirits existing on another side beside this one...

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...periencing-part-of-a-pm-conversation.7843548/

My personal experiencial evidence stands on it's very own as enough proof for me, but have I encountered the same God (YHWH) spoke about in the OT, some OT acts and verses by God cast a shadow of a doubt on him being a or the God of Love...

Anyone help?

God Bless!
 

eclipsenow

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Christianity is NOT opposed to evolution; it's just creationists cannot respect hermeneutics, the science of understanding how the original audience would have read this passage. Most Sydney Anglican ministers are evangelical, respect the doctrine known as the 'Sufficiency of Scripture', and yet accept evolution.

This is my friend Dr John Dickson's paper on the ancient understanding of Genesis 1. It's theological gold! Genesis 1 has nothing to do with HOW God made the world, and everything to do with WHY! That is, an over-reaction to Darwin's theories has distorted the modern reading of Genesis and made people read it as some kind of dry, boring, arbitrary list of what-God-did when, when it's actually closer to a highly structured poem taking us on a tour of why God knit the world together in the particular *relationships* He has put together. It's theological, not scientific. And I personally feel sorry for modern day Creationists, not just because they have to live in such terrible fear of everything 'sciencey' that indicates an old earth, but because they're missing out on the theological GOLD that is in Gensis 1 because of their literalistic reading of it!
http://www.iscast.org/journal/articlespage/Dickson_J_2008-03_Genesis_Of_Everything

Here is some more exploration of some of the problems if we do accept evolution. EG: Animal suffering before the fall? Do creationists, in reading Genesis 1 literally, have a serious problem with their own theology of creation because they've missed the theological messages in the passage by reading it literally? Etc.
http://reflectionsinexile.blogspot.com.au/2007/11/day-music-died.html

http://reflectionsinexile.blogspot.com.au/2007/11/problems-with-creation-science-i.html

http://reflectionsinexile.blogspot.com.au/2007/11/problems-with-creation-science-ii-on_21.html

http://reflectionsinexile.blogspot.com.au/2007/11/problems-with-creation-science-iii-tale.html

http://reflectionsinexile.blogspot.com.au/2007/11/problems-with-creation-science-iv-when.html

http://reflectionsinexile.blogspot.com.au/2007/11/problems-with-creation-science-iv.html

http://reflectionsinexile.blogspot.com.au/2007/11/problems-with-creation-science-v-god.html

http://reflectionsinexile.blogspot.com.au/2007/11/problems-with-creation-science-v-god_30.html
 
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Neogaia777

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Christianity is NOT opposed to evolution; it's just creationists cannot respect hermeneutics, the science of understanding how the original audience would have read this passage. Most Sydney Anglican ministers are evangelical, respect the doctrine known as the 'Sufficiency of Scripture', and yet accept evolution.

This is my friend Dr John Dickson's paper on the ancient understanding of Genesis 1. It's theological gold! Genesis 1 has nothing to do with HOW God made the world, and everything to do with WHY! That is, an over-reaction to Darwin's theories has distorted the modern reading of Genesis and made people read it as some kind of dry, boring, arbitrary list of what-God-did when, when it's actually closer to a highly structured poem taking us on a tour of why God knit the world together in the particular *relationships* He has put together. It's theological, not scientific. And I personally feel sorry for modern day Creationists, not just because they have to live in such terrible fear of everything 'sciencey' that indicates an old earth, but because they're missing out on the theological GOLD that is in Gensis 1 because of their literalistic reading of it!
http://www.iscast.org/journal/articlespage/Dickson_J_2008-03_Genesis_Of_Everything

Here is some more exploration of some of the problems if we do accept evolution. EG: Animal suffering before the fall? Do creationists, in reading Genesis 1 literally, have a serious problem with their own theology of creation because they've missed the theological messages in the passage by reading it literally? Etc.
http://reflectionsinexile.blogspot.com.au/2007/11/day-music-died.html

http://reflectionsinexile.blogspot.com.au/2007/11/problems-with-creation-science-i.html

http://reflectionsinexile.blogspot.com.au/2007/11/problems-with-creation-science-ii-on_21.html

http://reflectionsinexile.blogspot.com.au/2007/11/problems-with-creation-science-iii-tale.html

http://reflectionsinexile.blogspot.com.au/2007/11/problems-with-creation-science-iv-when.html

http://reflectionsinexile.blogspot.com.au/2007/11/problems-with-creation-science-iv.html

http://reflectionsinexile.blogspot.com.au/2007/11/problems-with-creation-science-v-god.html

http://reflectionsinexile.blogspot.com.au/2007/11/problems-with-creation-science-v-god_30.html
Thank you, I am looking into those links right now, I'll get back to you, thanks again,

God Bless!
 
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lesliedellow

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Well, my problem is I believe the scientific evidence which casts doubt on some of the Bible writers, BUT, I have too much personal experiencial evidence of a God and other spirits existing on another side beside this one...

Science doesn't cast doubt on the biblical writers; it casts doubt on a fundamentalist interpretation of what they wrote.
 
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Neogaia777

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Science doesn't cast doubt on the biblical writers; it casts doubt on a fundamentalist interpretation of what they wrote.
What do you mean by "fundamentalist interpretation"?
 
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Hoghead1

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Good point and good question! Fundamentalists believe that Scripture is inerrant, no errors, contradictions, etc. Whatever is written down in the Bible is true, exactly the way the Bible says it happened. Naturally, fundamentalists are upset with evolution, then. The point to bear in mind is that fundamentalism is only one part of the total scope of Christianity, which covers a rich diversity of belief systems. Not all Christians on the right or should be. I, for one, found this approach did not even begin to match my intellectual, emotional, and spiritual; needs. Hence, I moved over to the left, to a very liberal Christian perspective. When it comes to the inerrancy of Scripture , I look at it from an academic standpoint. (I am a theologian, by the way.) By academic I mean, from a position where any and all dogmas can be questioned. Here, the inerrancy theory is just that. A human-made-up theory of how God may be related to the writing of Scripture. Like any theory it should be tested. And I find it fails to hold water, cherished dogma or not. So, as I said, not all Christians are on the right or hold with the dogmas of the fundamentalist school.
 
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lesliedellow

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What do you mean by "fundamentalist interpretation"?

I mean the idea that Genesis 1 is there to provide historical or scientific information, rather than to communicate theological information.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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Here's my problem, I believe in evolution, and it brings up doubts especially in the OT... were the OT writers simply writing what they "thought" and the way they "felt" about God, and not in an actual words God actually said..

Well, my problem is I believe the scientific evidence which casts doubt on some of the Bible writers, BUT, I have too much personal experiencial evidence of a God and other spirits existing on another side beside this one...

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...periencing-part-of-a-pm-conversation.7843548/

My personal experiencial evidence stands on it's very own as enough proof for me, but have I encountered the same God (YHWH) spoke about in the OT, some OT acts and verses by God cast a shadow of a doubt on him being a or the God of Love...

Anyone help?

God Bless!

Accept the observational evidence and your problems will resolve themselves.

Asian mates with Asian and produces ONLY Asian. African mates with African and produces ONLY African. Only when Asian and African mate is variation seen within the species or Kind. The Asian does not evolve into the Afro-Asian nor does the African evolve into the Afro-Asian.

Husky mates with Husky and produces ONLY Husky. Mastiff mates with Mastiff and produces ONLY Mastiff. Only when Husky and Mastiff mate is variation seen within the species or Kind. The Husky does not evolve into the Chinook nor does the Mastiff evolve into the Chinook.

Brown bears mate with Brown bears and produce ONLY Brown bears, Bottle-nosed dolphin mate with Bottle-nosed dolphin and produce ONLY Bottle-nosed dolphin, This is true for every animal in existence.

The problem lies in interpretation. If evolutionists had never seen a dog and knew nothing about them and found fossils of the Mastiff and Husky and then later in the layer found fossils of the Chinook, they would insist that either the Husky or the Mastiff evolved into the Chinook. We know from direct observation this is not what occurred, even if the Chinook appears later in the record. Worse yet, they would insist the Husky, Mastiff and Chinook were all separate species - simply because their appearances were different. Just as they have done in the fossil record.

These:

images


are no different than these:

small-dog-breeds-17.jpg


Merely different infraspecific taxa in the species or Kind to which they belong - not separate species. They have simply ignored the observational evidence when it came time to classify the fossil record and have incorrectly classified 90% of the creatures that existed as separate species.

Theistic evolution starts from the same incorrect assumptions in their desire to feel they are practicing science - when evolution has no basis in science to begin with - but is based upon the requirement that we ignore all observational evidence of how life propagates and variation occurs within the species.
 
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SkyWriting

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Here's my problem, I believe in evolution, and it brings up doubts especially in the OT... were the OT writers simply writing what they "thought" and the way they "felt" about God, and not in an actual words God actually said..Anyone help?
God Bless!

History is past events taken on "faith in the reliability" of the writer.
Science is based on the same thing, except that ones faith can be
enhanced by repeating the events the first researcher experienced.

Anything that cannot be repeated is not in the realm of science.


The real process of science - Understanding Science
 
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Jordan Kurecki

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Here's my problem, I believe in evolution, and it brings up doubts especially in the OT... were the OT writers simply writing what they "thought" and the way they "felt" about God, and not in an actual words God actually said..

Well, my problem is I believe the scientific evidence which casts doubt on some of the Bible writers, BUT, I have too much personal experiencial evidence of a God and other spirits existing on another side beside this one...

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...periencing-part-of-a-pm-conversation.7843548/

My personal experiencial evidence stands on it's very own as enough proof for me, but have I encountered the same God (YHWH) spoke about in the OT, some OT acts and verses by God cast a shadow of a doubt on him being a or the God of Love...

Anyone help?

God Bless!
the bible says to beware of "science falsely so called"

In case you didn't know this, but evolution is only believed by faith.
You cannot observe the process of a single celled organism becoming a multi celled organism through evolution.

The only thing we can observe is limited genetic changes within species, we cannot observe anything beyond that.
Who are you gonna believe, God? or Man?

"Let God be true and every man a liar"

There are some serious problems with Evolution, Darwin's Black Box Written by Michael Behe is a great book showing the scientific challenges to evolution.
 
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Jordan Kurecki

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I mean the idea that Genesis 1 is there to provide historical or scientific information, rather than to communicate theological information.
Genesis absolutely is true in everything it says.

It absolutely is not a parable, or a symbolic story.
"If Jesus was (and is) both the Creator God and a perfect man, then His pronouncements are always and absolutely trustworthy. And Jesus referred directly to details in each of the first seven chapters of Genesis fifteen times. For example, Jesus referred to Genesis 1:26-27 when He said in Mark 10:6, "But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female." Man was created male and female "from the beginning of the creation," not after millions of years. In the very next verse, Jesus quotes directly fromGenesis 2:24 when He said, "For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; and they twain shall be one flesh." Five times Jesus refers to Noah and/or the destructive global Flood as real history. If He, as the Creator, was actually a witness to the events of Genesis 1-11, then we have no alternative but to regard these opening chapters of the Bible as reliable history.

Peter spent three years traveling in the company of Jesus Christ Himself. Then Peter was a witness to Jesus' death and the bodily resurrection. Peter and the other disciples also received extraordinary ability and authority with the gift of God's Holy Spirit. Thus the books of the New Testament that bear his name not only come from his pen, but have the authority of God.

In 2 Peter 3:5-6, the apostle Peter prophesied that there would be scoffers who would come in the last days choosing to be ignorant of the fact that God created the heaven and the earth, and that God later destroyed everything on the surface of the earth by a global watery cataclysm.

Peter stated in 2 Peter 3:3, "knowing this first." This denotes Peter placed first priority on this prophecy, which is about those who would reject the account of creation and the global Flood in Genesis 1-11 as real history.

What is quite remarkable is the explanation Peter gives as to why these scoff and reject the physical evidence that He created the heavens and the earth and sent a global mountain-covering flood. 2 Peter 3:4tells that these scoffers' philosophy will be that "all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation." This is an apt description of the philosophy of uniformitarianism, popularized by Charles Lyell in the 1830s, that "the present is the key to the past." Thus we can extrapolate geological processes shaping the earth today back in time to explain how earth’s rock features were formed.

It was on the basis of this philosophy that billions of years of slow and gradual geological processes became the foundation for modern geology. This provided the timescale necessary for the theory of organic evolution to explain the development of all life on the earth, instead of accepting that God had created it all.

Peter wrote an accurate description of these scoffers more than 1,700 years ago. Peter believed that the opening chapters of Genesis were real history and he predicted what we see today--the rejection of special creation by God and the rejection of the global Flood."

http://www.icr.org/article/genesis-real-reliable-historical/
 
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Jordan Kurecki

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"
The Reliability of the Whole Bible Depends on Genesis as History

It is impossible to reject the historicity of the book of Genesis without repudiating the authority of the entire Bible. If Genesis is not true, then neither are the testimonies of those prophets and apostles who believed it was true. In the Old Testament, for example, Adam is mentioned in Deuteronomy, Job, and 1 Chronicles, while Noah is mentioned in 1 Chronicles, Isaiah, and Ezekiel. There are at least 100 quotations or direct references to Genesis 1-11 in the New Testament. Furthermore, every one of those eleven chapters is alluded to in the New Testament, and every one of the New Testament authors refers somewhere in his writings to Genesis 1-11.

In not one of these Old or New Testament references to Genesis is there the slightest evidence that the writers regarded the events as myths or allegories. The word genesis means "beginnings" or "origin," so Genesis 1-11 records for us God's provision of the only reliable account of the origin of the universe, the solar system, the earth, the atmosphere, and the oceans, of order and complexity, life, man, marriage, evil, language, government, culture, nations, and religion, not to mention rocks and fossils. Thus Genesis 1-11 is of such foundational importance to all history that without it there is no true understanding of ourselves or our world.

What we believe about our origin will inevitably determine our beliefs concerning our purpose and our destiny. Naturalistic concepts provide no hope of there being anything more than what we see around us. On the other hand, an origin at the hands of an all powerful, loving God guarantees a meaning to our existence, and a future. By not taking Genesis seriously, many Christians have in fact undermined the rest of the Bible they claim to believe and follow. They are also in danger of unwittingly accusing Jesus Christ of being a false witness, deceived, or a deceiver."

http://www.icr.org/article/genesis-real-reliable-historical/
 
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RedPonyDriver

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The first few chapters of Genesis are what's known as a creation myth. A creation myth is an ancient peoples' attempt to explain how the world was formed and how they came to be on it. Every ancient culture has a creation myth. None of them are literal.

There is absolutely NO contradiction in accepting evolution and being a believer. Evolution is HOW. God is WHY. The largest "proof" I can come up with that meshes evolution and faith is that systems tend to move from more organized to less organized...entropy. What I see in the universe around me is the opposite...which leads me to believe that there is intelligence behind the development of the universe.

Don't get sucked into the creationist arguments...
 
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juvenissun

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Here's my problem, I believe in evolution, and it brings up doubts especially in the OT... were the OT writers simply writing what they "thought" and the way they "felt" about God, and not in an actual words God actually said..

Well, my problem is I believe the scientific evidence which casts doubt on some of the Bible writers, BUT, I have too much personal experiencial evidence of a God and other spirits existing on another side beside this one...

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...periencing-part-of-a-pm-conversation.7843548/

My personal experiencial evidence stands on it's very own as enough proof for me, but have I encountered the same God (YHWH) spoke about in the OT, some OT acts and verses by God cast a shadow of a doubt on him being a or the God of Love...

Anyone help?

God Bless!

You HAVE TO examine what the OT says case by case.

There is no easy way out. Your general description and general question, and any general answer you might get, do not help you at all. It took me three decades to consider those concerns one by one, back and forth. Many questions solved. Some still exist. Faith is needed at the beginning on every issues. Faith is still needed at the end on some hard ones.
 
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-57

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Here's my problem, I believe in evolution, and it brings up doubts especially in the OT... were the OT writers simply writing what they "thought" and the way they "felt" about God, and not in an actual words God actually said..

Well, my problem is I believe the scientific evidence which casts doubt on some of the Bible writers, BUT, I have too much personal experiencial evidence of a God and other spirits existing on another side beside this one...

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...periencing-part-of-a-pm-conversation.7843548/

My personal experiencial evidence stands on it's very own as enough proof for me, but have I encountered the same God (YHWH) spoke about in the OT, some OT acts and verses by God cast a shadow of a doubt on him being a or the God of Love...

Anyone help?

God Bless!
Neogaia777,
Eolutionism contradicts the bible in many ways.
For example how did sin and death enter into the world? Paul says through one man Adam.
If evolutionism is true that means there was no Garden of Eden. There was no Adam. No Eve. Most importantly there was no act of disobedience or fall. How do Theological Evolutionist explain sin and its cause?

Secondly, you speak of personal experiencial evidence. How does your personal experiencial evidence explain how dinosaur tissue can survive for more than 65+ MY's?
How does your personal experiencial evidence explain why coal still has C14 remaining in it when it should have decayed long, long ago?

I trust the bible. I trust the geological column and the fossils that are contained in them. The bible tells us how they got there. The world wide flood of Noah's time deposited them.
 
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lesliedellow

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Neogaia777,If evolutionism is true that means there was no Garden of Eden. There was no Adam. No Eve. Most importantly there was no act of disobedience or fall. How do Theological Evolutionist explain sin and its cause?

You don't have to explain it; you only have to accept the reality of which Genesis 3 speaks.
 
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-57

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You don't have to explain it; you only have to accept the reality of which Genesis 3 speaks.

My point is, if evolutionism is true..then there is no reality of Genesis 3.
Secondly, I don't think one can accept the reality of Gen 3 unless God grants it.
 
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SkyWriting

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The largest "proof" I can come up with that meshes evolution and faith is that systems tend to move from more organized to less organized...entropy. What I see in the universe around me is the opposite...which leads me to believe that there is intelligence behind the development of the universe.

The universe is not becoming more organized.
Which cosmos are you looking at?

Heat death of the Universe - PhysLink.com
 
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SkyWriting

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I trust the bible. I trust the geological column and the fossils that are contained in them. The bible tells us how they got there. The world wide flood of Noah's time deposited them.

The Bible doesn't even hint that the earth is young.
How "old" was Adam?
How "Old" was the fruit he ate?
How "Old" was Eve?
How "Old" were all the animals that Adam named?
How "young" was the Garden?
Were they all close to "Zero" in age?
The ground Adam walked on....."Zero" years old?
Perhaps Ken Ham is wrong.
 
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-57

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The Bible doesn't even hint that the earth is young.
How "old" was Adam?
How "Old" was the fruit he ate?
How "Old" was Eve?
How "Old" were all the animals that Adam named?
How "young" was the Garden?
Were they all close to "Zero" in age?
The ground Adam walked on....."Zero" years old?
Perhaps Ken Ham is wrong.

The bible does hint creation was only about 6K years ago. Do what Bishop Ussher did.
 
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