Here is the place I'm at.

mikedsjr

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I struggle at church. It's a place of stress for me. I value Scripture for what it says. I don't read it and think, "what are the Goliaths in my life?" I read Scripture first as the entire story of the gospel. I read it as all history. When my Sunday School Teacher says, "why did Abraham hear God speak? It was because he was already following God", that I speak up and say defensively, "it does not say that in Scripture. We have no knowledge of Abraham's beliefs prior to this". This in turn causes a small bit of awkward transition. My wife think I would be unhappy even if I turned heel on the Baptist faith and ran to Lutheran church. I'm just so tired of battling the nondenominational mysticism and charismatic BS that it drives me nuts.

I would do better never to open my bible again and just let the touchy feely emotionalistic garbage take over me that comes out of the mouth of Christians.

I hate being stressed in Sunday School church. Thankfully, the pastor sermons are no affected by this. I'm at peace there.
 

twin1954

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It takes some kehonees to stand up in the face of intimidation. I applaud your speaking out. They certainly wouldn't want me in their Sunday School. I stood up among all the students of the Bible college I was attending during chapel and called the president of the college, who was preaching, a liar. I try to be patient with those who don't know better but those who claim to be teachers are held to a much higher standard.

Of course you could just quit attending the SS and just go to the worship service.
 
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miamited

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Hi mike,

Wow! So, because your small group teacher 'may' have made a mistake in understanding and explaining why Abram heard God's voice, you're ready to cut bait and run, huh? Listen, friend, I sat in a small group for quite a long time under a teacher who believed in alien life out there somewhere because they bought into this idea that the universe is just far too vast for the earth to be the only place where life exists. However, the fellowship pastor was dead on, as far as I could tell, about the truths of God. I don't usually hold small group teachers up to the same measuring rod as I do the fellowship teacher or pastor. But, like you, I would make my disagreement known when the subject came up. That's one of the things I appreciate about small group -- one gets to talk. I no longer participate with that particular fellowship, but I'm not ready to throw out the overall Baptist denomination because of these issues.

However, I'm not particularly beholden to any denomination. I look for a fellowship where the fellowship teacher teaches the truth. I'm not particularly concerned with what any particular individual of the congregation might believe or teach. Gosh, I've been on this site long enough to know that in pretty much every denomination there are people who don't understand the truth of God as I do. It becomes most apparent in the discussions of the creation. But, I'm not ready to throw out Christianity or fellowship because everyone doesn't see or understand things as I do. I understand that there are many, like Paul explains, who are weak in their faith. I understand Jesus' teaching that on the day of God's judgment there will be many who held themselves up as Christians and considered themselves to be doing the will of God, who will be turned away. I understand that being a believer and worshiping with a fellowship of believers is going to open me up to dealing with people who may likely be standing in that line.

However, having said that, I think it's fine that you choose to worship with another denomination so long as the leadership of that denomination teaches, believes and practices the truth. There are, of course, some that I would be very, very hesitant to join with. The catholic organization comes immediately to mind. Honestly, you won't ever find these bones sitting in a catholic worship service. For me, it's just rife from top to bottom, with lies and untruths about the things of God. But, there are a lot of people enjoined with that denomination. Based on that, my understanding is that the line of 'many' that Jesus is referring to is going to be a long, long line. I'm also not willing to enjoin with so called orthodox denominations for much of the same reason. I look for autonomous fellowships. One's whose hierarchy pretty much stops at the front door of the individual worship building. I look for a fellowship among those choices where the teacher or pastor teaches the truth.

I pray that God would guide you in this. BTW, I've been 'frowned' upon in fellowships that I have just turned my back and left. I can attest that it's not necessarily a bad thing if you're leaving for valid reasons.

Funny story, I guess. The new pastor (not the one that I mentioned above that seemed to be dead on in his teaching), that came to the fellowship that I'm speaking of above with the teacher who believed in aliens, did a small group study shortly after he came on board. The study was on Exodus and he explained that the building of the tabernacle came about in about 30 days after the Exodus. I think the point was about how quickly the Israelites then forsook God in making the golden calf. He called our attention to the Exodus chapter 40:17 and he read it and then continued on.

No one said a word. No hand was raised and I decided to let it pass. At some point later in his study he asked if any of us had any questions. I raised my hand and I said, well yes, my copy of the Scriptures in the referenced point says it was the first month of the 'second year'. This would mean that Israel had been in the desert for over a year before the tabernacle was constructed. Of course, then everyone else chimed in and agreed that their Scriptures said the same thing as I read.

Well, he flipped his pages and looked through the Scriptures and you could see that he was rereading it and then said, "I'll have to get back to you about that." It wasn't too long after this that I had corrected him on some other points of Scripture that I was told that I was being a 'distraction' and either had to agree to keep my mouth shut or get out. I left.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
 
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miamited

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BTW mike,

For the record, I agree with you about Abram as far as we don't have any history of Abram's understanding or faith in God before God speaks to him. However, the account reads that when God first spoke to Abram, Abram didn't seem to be flustered or wondering who it was that was speaking to him. It does simply say that God spoke to Abram and Abram obeyed. For me, this would infer that he did at least have some knowledge of God.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
 
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mikedsjr

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Ted, I just had a venting situation. I'm not a very good communicator, but at the same time I've stopped accepting that excuse from myself and trying to get better. But with succeeding comes failure. Plus I didn't realize until afterwards my allergies have kicked up. For some odd reason, my pessimism goes way up when my allergies get riled up.

If I'm ever going to improve my communication skills I'll have to work through what I'm doing and feeling. My wife said I sounded defensive and I'm sure I was.

Thanks for sharing your situation.
 
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High Fidelity

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Mike -- You are, I suspect, experiencing what I imagine a lot of Christians are experiencing lately; the shift from Scripture to feel good 'theology'. A glorified community centre with a label. A milk sermon and a good ol' time with the big screens and bright lights. Hearing about how great we are and throwing in a bit of how Jesus loves us for good measure. Going home and considering it done for the week, probably not even touching a Bible. A lot of that can, as you've pointed out, be observed within and summed up quite broadly as Charismatic.

I have no tolerance for it. Can't stand it.

I was listening to an interview between Kirk Cameron and John MacArthur yesterday and he summed it up quite well as far as the whole happiness, health and wealth goes; Christ tells us in Matthew 16 that if anyone wants to come after Him, he is to deny himself[...]. Our faith isn't about self-fulfilment; it's about self-denial.

It sounds like there's some hope for your situation, though. It sounds like it hasn't affected the sermons and I hope that means the Pastor hasn't veered down that path yet. Perhaps you can speak with him and let him know your observations. Even if he acts out of self-preservation knowing that his congregation may slowly being turned in to that which wants something different to that which he provides, if it roots out the issue and gets things back on track, so be it.

Alas, one can hope he'll see how detrimental it is to the spiritual well-being of his flock and address it accordingly.

Keep us posted!
 
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mikedsjr

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Mike -- You are, I suspect, experiencing what I imagine a lot of Christians are experiencing lately; the shift from Scripture to feel good 'theology'. A glorified community centre with a label. A milk sermon and a good ol' time with the big screens and bright lights. Hearing about how great we are and throwing in a bit of how Jesus loves us for good measure. Going home and considering it done for the week, probably not even touching a Bible. A lot of that can, as you've pointed out, be observed within and summed up quite broadly as Charismatic.

I have no tolerance for it. Can't stand it.

I was listening to an interview between Kirk Cameron and John MacArthur yesterday and he summed it up quite well as far as the whole happiness, health and wealth goes; Christ tells us in Matthew 16 that if anyone wants to come after Him, he is to deny himself[...]. Our faith isn't about self-fulfilment; it's about self-denial.

It sounds like there's some hope for your situation, though. It sounds like it hasn't affected the sermons and I hope that means the Pastor hasn't veered down that path yet. Perhaps you can speak with him and let him know your observations. Even if he acts out of self-preservation knowing that his congregation may slowly being turned in to that which wants something different to that which he provides, if it roots out the issue and gets things back on track, so be it.

Alas, one can hope he'll see how detrimental it is to the spiritual well-being of his flock and address it accordingly.

Keep us posted!
Thanks. The pastor has done well and I appreciate his love for the gospel. I think my love has tarnished a bit due to the last church where I became quite angry at what they called preaching. Still have respect for the Sr pastor for his outside work.
 
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mikedsjr

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Speaking of changing, I used to love my parents church. My mom says I might not like it anymore. They go to the traditional service. However afterwards, the song director and Sr pastor do a costume change for the second service where they play at least one secular song during church service.
 
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98cwitr

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I struggle at church. It's a place of stress for me. I value Scripture for what it says. I don't read it and think, "what are the Goliaths in my life?" I read Scripture first as the entire story of the gospel. I read it as all history. When my Sunday School Teacher says, "why did Abraham hear God speak? It was because he was already following God", that I speak up and say defensively, "it does not say that in Scripture. We have no knowledge of Abraham's beliefs prior to this". This in turn causes a small bit of awkward transition. My wife think I would be unhappy even if I turned heel on the Baptist faith and ran to Lutheran church. I'm just so tired of battling the nondenominational mysticism and charismatic BS that it drives me nuts.

I would do better never to open my bible again and just let the touchy feely emotionalistic garbage take over me that comes out of the mouth of Christians.

I hate being stressed in Sunday School church. Thankfully, the pastor sermons are no affected by this. I'm at peace there.

I know your struggle, Mike. I too struggle at my church. There is a lot of faith-lacking, "this is more of a country club" mentality floating around. Sometimes church to me just feels more like a business than a place of worship. I just try and fight the good fight and let Scripture do the talking. It makes for good debates though!
 
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mikedsjr

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I know your struggle, Mike. I too struggle at my church. There is a lot of faith-lacking, "this is more of a country club" mentality floating around. Sometimes church to me just feels more like a business than a place of worship. I just try and fight the good fight and let Scripture do the talking. It makes for good debates though!
Thanks. Good advise.
 
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98cwitr

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Stay involved in Sunday School and the extracurricular stuff. It will not only help you serve others, but also let you have a voice. Sometimes I feel like I walk into my church with my Bible like Im carrying a weapon! ;)
 
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JCFantasy23

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I feel uncomfortable with the charismatic type non-denoms I've visited too, no way would I go back to them again. You're not alone. I guess it's different worship styles and all that jazz. If you're feeling uncomfortable there, I'd definitely change. I think your wife is wrong that you wouldn't be happy other places. Usually people into certain services can't understand how someone wouldn't be, they end up thinking its' a personal problem and the person is negative or something's wrong with them - I went through that with my ex.
 
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royal priest

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I know of a couple who would not attend any church because there was no church in their area where they could support even basic doctrinal beliefs and practices. So, instead, they conducted their own Lord's Day services at home with recordings of sermons. According to 1 Corinthians 12:12, they were encouraged to join themselves to a church in their area which most closely resembled their own understanding of the Word of God. This couple is very wise and discerning and God has used them for the reformation of the body to which they have joined themselves.
I have concerns about some things where I am a member, but as long as a church is committed to do everything according to the revealed will of God, then there is hope that Christ is using His word to sanctify His bride and cause her to grow in His grace and knowledge.
 
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