Help with doubts!

[Johnnz]

OK. Good points. Christians have some issues with verses like that too.

But don't overlook the fact that the NT records events from another culture about 2000 years ago. I find aspects of American culture confusing at times as you would ours! Yet there are far greater similarities between us than us and NT times.

We understand prayer as communication with God. It's not a shopping list to a heavenly Santa. That statement is both a promise and a challenge. People at that time knew that God answers but that does not mean instantly. The Jewish people had prayed for centuries before getting a response. Religious Jews still pray for their Messiah to come.

Mountains in the bible can refer to political powers or major obstacles, not just lumps of rocks.

At this stage of your journey you don't need to accept that the Bible is perfect. Just see it as a reliable account of actual events as far as the NT goes. There are huge implications arising from that, centred around the life, death and resurrection of Jesus. When the NT is accepted as providing a reasonable basis for one's faith then the somewhat more thorny issues of the OT can be addressed. They are far more complex in comparison. But seeing where Jesus fits in is the key to the process of finding one's belief.

John
NZ

 

[Peripatetic]

You raise some very good questions here... no doubt. I've heard it said that the Bible is infallible, but our interpretations aren't and our teachers aren't. I'll add to that, our translations aren't. First the translations: a lot of times, there is no one perfect English word for what the Greek or Hebrew originally said. For example, there are four Greek words for love that have very different meanings. The word Éros would refer to passionate love for your wife, while the word Philia would indicate friendship, and Agápe might be used to describe Jesus' sacrificial love for us.

Why wouldn't an omnipotent, all-knowing God have written it the way he meant it, in an understandable, clear, unambiguous, truthful, correct way?

What some call ambiguity, others might call milti-dimensional. If we believe that the Bible is divinely inspired, why should we expect it to have only one flat, linear meaning? It needs to speak to different people of different time periods in different contexts. Another way to put it is this: the bible is complex enough that a lifetime of study wouldn't give you all of its messages. How dull it would be if you read it once and said, "well... I guess that's it. Now what?"

Mathew 17:20 "For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you."

This is a great example of how people take things out of context and use them in articles like the one we've been looking at. Jesus often used agricultural illustrations using seeds. It isn't to be taken literally. He also exaggerated to prove a point. Here's a nice bit I found on the web:

Jesus often uses hyperbole to convey his wisdom. For example, he asks why we so easily see the speck in our neighbor's eye and fail to notice the log in our own (Mt 7.3; Lk 6.41; Th 26). There is a cartoon quality to this image. The idea of part of a tree trunk sticking out of one's eye socket is preposterous. Equally ludicrous is the picture of a hyper-critical hypocrite inspecting someone else's eye for tiny flaws. The combination of these images is a recipe for a wry smile.

From: The Humor of Jesus of Nazareth

When He talked about moving mountains, it was an exaggeration to get the point across. Even today, we still use the expression "moving mountains" for a very hard task. Jesus often used cryptic language. It's part of the mystery that we will never completely solve while on Earth, but it leaves us a great challenge to try.

 

[NoMoreDoubts]

I think before I decide any more I should reread the Bible. I really would love to completely agree with your post, but I'm still stuck... I mean, if I ever get to heaven I shall personally recommend that God kindly not exaggerate when he tells what he can or can't or is willing or isn't willing to do, it is very confusing! :S

Furthermore, I'm also confused that if we are not meant to take anything Jesus says literally.... Well that has some pretty big implications..

You say "What some call ambiguity, others might call multi-dimensional." <-- I am definitely in the former catagory

Anyway, rereading the Bible might clear things up for me maybe.
... I wonder if anyone else will find this thread useful or will it just confuse them more haha...

Also on your point, " How dull it would be if you read it once and said, "well... I guess that's it. Now what?"", this is a good point but I think to me personally, I would find the Bible more helpful if it were "dull but to the point" right now haha

 

[Peripatetic]

I'm glad that you're going to read the Bible again, but please don't do it randomly or cover-to-cover! Perhaps the best way to "dip your toe in" would be to get a daily devotional book. The one I use takes about 10 minutes a day and gives you a bit of discussion to go with the verses. You don't want to try to figure it all out... just get the important bits a little at a time. If you want to read a whole book, I'd go with John first, then Romans.

Oh, and there are plenty of times that we should take Jesus literally. It's harder to tell the difference if you just look at one passage at a time out of context. Sometimes it won't make any sense at all unless you read a footnote that gives you the historical context. That's why I like to use a study Bible. If something really confuses me, I consult the wisdom of Theologians that have been at this for centuries.

 

[singpeace]

I am sorry that you are going through this. I have been there myself, and it just feels like... well, you know... crap-on-steroids.

I have wanted to see him, too. Years ago, I was angry, and I demanded that He show up right there!

But now I see He was there, but my circumstances were hard, and my faith was young and weak. Now I know him intimately. While I don't understand everything about him, my faith is stronger and I do see and hear him in my spirit rather than in the flesh.

I hope this helps:

John 20:24-29 (NLT)
24 One of the twelve disciples, Thomas (nicknamed the Twin),[c] was not with the others when Jesus came. 25 They told him, “We have seen the Lord!”
But he replied, “I won’t believe it unless I see the nail wounds in his hands, put my fingers into them, and place my hand into the wound in his side.”

26 Eight days later the disciples were together again, and this time Thomas was with them. The doors were locked; but suddenly, as before, Jesus was standing among them. “Peace be with you,” he said. 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and look at my hands. Put your hand into the wound in my side. Don’t be faithless any longer. Believe!”

28 “My Lord and my God!” Thomas exclaimed.

29 Then Jesus told him, “You believe because you have seen me. Blessed are those who believe without seeing me.”

 

[banish'd]

Even the quote you said is "look not upon our sins, but on the faith of your church?" not the works...

Sorry VertigoAge, but I have to correct you on that.

During the present Roman Catholic Mass (in the ordinary form) that is celebrated everyday in every Catholic Church worldwide the "Communion Rite" is spoken out loud.

The Communion Rite is broken down into 4 Sections:

LORDS PRAYER
SIGH OF PEACE
BREAKING OF BREAD
COMMUNION

During the SIGN OF PEACE the priest prays out loud:

"Lord Jesus Christ, you said to your apostles: I leave you peace, my peace I give you. **[Look not upon our sins, but the faith of your church]**, and grant us the peace and unity of your kingdom where you live for ever and ever. Amen"

"The peace of the Lord be with you always"

The people respond: "And also with you"

"Let us offer each other the sign of peace"

Note:
Listen for the COMMUNION RITE, and it will always follow one of the 4 EUCHARISTIC PRAYERS. Hint: the COMMUNION RITE follows directly after the people say, "For the kingdom, power, and glory are yours, now and forever."


.

 

[Peripatetic]

I think you misunderstood my post. I never suggested that the above quote wasn't in the mass. I was pointing out that it referenced "faith" and not "works". But in any event, that was off Emma's topic, so I'd prefer not to start up that part of the conversation.