Help in Understanding Judgement

Hakan101

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I was having a discussion on another forum with some Atheists about Hell. The Atheists were saying that God is not a loving God or a perfect God because he puts condemned people into Hell for eternity. I told them that God said that evildoers will be punished righteously, and gave several quotes from the Bible. But then they said "Hell isn't punishment, it's torture. Punishment is meant to correct people when they do wrong, but if we are condemned to Hell for eternity than that is torture. A perfect God wouldn't choose to torture people for all eternity, no one deserves that no matter how sinful they have been."

This made me very angry because I know there's more to it than that, but frankly I didn't know what to say to them...I think that to make an excuse like "nobody deserves Hell no matter what" is to justify clinging to evil ways, yet at the same time the idea of God choosing to make people suffer forever bothers me. I know God is a loving God and he rewards those who follow him, but is it really a perfect thing to make people suffer forever?
 

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Hakan101,

That is a rough one. The Catholic Church emphasized Hell through the centuries, so many believe that the Catholics invented Hell. The evangelicals picked up on that, plus the evangelicals emphasized the Book of Revelation.

The only path to salvation is Jesus, so we can limit our view to the goodness of God if we want. However, the evangelical make it sound like we must believe in the Book of Revelation and billions of people going to Hell for eternity in order us to be saved.

The Atheists bring up a good argument. Why would a loving God create Billions upon Billions of souls on this planet only to send them to Hell to burn for eternity? Think about it, are we putting our faith in mythology rather than a loving God? But of course, that sounds a little New Age, doesn't it?
 
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Peripatetic

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We don't know for sure if Hell is "torture" (ie. fire, lava, pain, etc.). Here's how I look at it: God let's us decide. If we want to be with Him, we'll be with Him. If we want to reject Him, he gives us what we want... life on Earth and after Earth without Him.

I always thought that Hell could be just living a life similar to Earth for an eternity... in linear time... knowing what you are missing. :shudder:
 
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Hakan101

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Hakan101,

That is a rough one. The Catholic Church emphasized Hell through the centuries, so many believe that the Catholics invented Hell. The evangelicals picked up on that, plus the evangelicals emphasized the Book of Revelation.

The only path to salvation is Jesus, so we can limit our view to the goodness of God if we want. However, the evangelical make it sound like we must believe in the Book of Revelation and billions of people going to Hell for eternity in order us to be saved.

The Atheists bring up a good argument. Why would a loving God create Billions upon Billions of souls on this planet only to send them to Hell to burn for eternity? Think about it, are we putting our faith in mythology rather than a loving God? But of course, that sounds a little New Age, doesn't it?

Okay, I think I see what you are saying. So it would seem that some people are putting a lot of emphasis on Hell and damnation, and not enough on God's love and grace. I agree with that, we need to have faith in the Lord and know that we can be saved, worrying about what will happen if we are not saved.

Thank you for your response. That is very surprising, I did not know that people have questioned the idea of Hell and believe Catholics created it, does that mean there are many Christians who do not believe in Hell at all?

EDIT: And thank you too, Mr. Vertigo. I share your point of view, why worry about Hell when you know you can choose to follow God and accept Christ, and enjoy eternal life? Very good response.
 
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seashale76

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I post this a lot :) :

I'm swiping this old entry from the now defunct Wiki pages here at Christian Forums as it says it better than I could (the three links within still work though):
The Orthodox teaching is that Heaven and Hell are the same "place" , standing in front of God. The Judgment is individual perception, determined by one's relationship to God. This perception will determine whether or not one experiences it as paradise (Heaven) or agony (Hell) eternally .


Here is a quote from an old Wikipedia article on the topic (that doesn’t seem to be around anymore) that I thought explained it pretty well:
"For many ancient Christians, Hell was the same "place" as Heaven: living in the presence of God and directly experiencing God's love. Whether this was experienced as pleasure or torment depended on one's disposition towards God. St. Isaac of Syria wrote in Mystic Treatises: "... those who find themselves in Hell will be chastised by the scourge of love. How cruel and bitter this torment of love will be! For those who understand that they have sinned against love, undergo greater suffering than those produced by the most fearful tortures. The sorrow which takes hold of the heart, which has sinned against love, is more piercing than any other pain. It is not right to say that the sinners in Hell are deprived of the love of God ... But love acts in two ways, as suffering of the reproved, and as joy in the blessed!" This ancient view is still the doctrine of the Eastern Orthodox Church."
 
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ampbelle3130

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the way that i see it is this: God does not choose to condemn people for all eternity - we choose this. He gave us free will. we have the choice to accept that Jesus Christ is our LORD and Savior and to accept His grace and that He died so that our sin doesnt seperate us from God -- or to not acknowledge the truth.
i agree with you. God is a loving God. it pains Him when we condemn ourselves. it is a question regarding our decision to seek salvation or to allow our sin to overcome us...it isnt a question of whether or not God loves us.
 
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Diatogen

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Consider this:
If you take candy from your child, probably, no one will mind. If you take some money out of your friend or family member’s wallet, you will be met with hostility or even jail time. If you try to pickpocket the President, you may be killed on the spot! The crime, theft, is the same yet the consequences are very different. As there is a hierarchy of who we sin against, there is an equal scale of just sentences. How much higher is God above these?
I see eternal hell as perfectly fitting for our sins. This makes me appreciate even more God’s LOVE FOR US that while we were yet sinners, he offered us a way out.
Those who think God is cruel concerning hell don’t understand the true nature of sin. They also are completely missing the Cross; the most perfect and complete display of love that has ever occurred.
 
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charita

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What exactly is "HELL"?

The Scriptures clearly state: "The wages sin pays is death." (Romans 6:23) Since the punishment for sin is death, the fundamental question in determining the true nature of hell is: What happens to us when we die?
Does life of some kind, in some form, continue after death? What is hell, and what kind of people go there? Is there any hope for those in hell? The Bible gives truthful and satisfying answers to these questions. If you're really interesting in knowledge regarding this topic, please take time to read through the information below.

Life After Death?

Does something inside us, like a soul or a spirit, survive the death of the body? Consider how the first man, Adam, came to have life. The Bible states: "Jehovah God proceeded to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life." (Genesis 2:7) Though breathing sustained his life, putting "the breath of life" into his nostrils involved much more than simply blowing air into his lungs. It meant that God put into Adam's lifeless body the spark of life—"the force of life," which is active in all earthly creatures. (Genesis 6:17; 7:22) The Bible refers to this animating force as "spirit." (James 2:26) That spirit can be compared to the electric current that activates a machine or an appliance and enables it to perform its function. Just as the current never takes on the features of the equipment it activates, the life-force does not take on any of the characteristics of the creatures it animates. It has no personality and no thinking ability.

What happens to the spirit when a person dies? Psalm 146:4 says: "His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts do perish." When a person dies, his impersonal spirit does not go on existing in another realm as a spirit creature. It "returns to the true God who gave it." (Ecclesiastes 12:7) This means that any hope of future life for that person now rests entirely with God.

What, then, is the condition of the dead? When pronouncing sentence upon Adam, God stated: "Dust you are and to dust you will return." (Genesis 3:19) Where was Adam before God formed him from the dust of the ground and gave him life? Why, he simply did not exist! When he died, Adam returned to that state of complete absence of life. The condition of the dead is made clear at Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10, where we read: "The dead know nothing . . . In the grave, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom." (New International Version) Scripturally, death is a state of nonexistence. The dead have no awareness, no feelings, no thoughts. They aren't able do any good OR bad to anyone living!

Unending Torment or Common Grave?

Since the dead have no conscious existence, hell cannot be a fiery place of torment where the wicked suffer after death. What, then, is hell? Examining what happened to Jesus after he died helps to answer that question. The Bible writer Luke recounts: "Neither was [Jesus] forsaken in Hades [hell,) King James Version] nor did his flesh see corruption." (Acts 2:31) Where was the hell to which even Jesus went? The apostle Paul wrote: "I handed on to you . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures; and that he was buried, yes, that he has been raised up the third day according to the Scriptures." (1 Corinthians 15:3, 4) So Jesus was in hell, wich means the grave, but he was not abandoned there, for he was raised up, or resurrected.

Consider also the case of the righteous man Job, who suffered much. Wishing to escape his plight, he pleaded: "Who will grant me this, that thou mayest protect me in hell [Sheol], and hide me till thy wrath pass?" (Job 14:13, Douay Version) How unreasonable to think that Job desired to go to a fiery-hot place for protection! To Job, "hell" was simply the grave, where his suffering would end. The Bible hell, then, is the common grave of mankind where good people as well as bad ones go.

The word "Gehenna" (Hell) occurs 12 times in the Christian Greek Scriptures, and it refers to the valley of Hinnom, outside the walls of Jerusalem. When Jesus was on earth, this valley was used as a garbage dump, "where the dead bodies of criminals, and the carcasses of animals, and every other kind of filth was cast." (Smith's Dictionary of the Bible) The fires were kept burning by adding sulfur to burn up the refuse. Jesus used that valley as a proper symbol of everlasting destruction. Not some kind of life in everlasting tourtur!

This Biblical facts shows that God isn't someone who has satisfaction in everlasting purnishment. Not even for those who don't want to obey him. He gave everyone only two choises; Everlasting life OR everlasting DEAD. Nothing in between.
 
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childofGod31

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I was having a discussion on another forum with some Atheists about Hell. The Atheists were saying that God is not a loving God or a perfect God because he puts condemned people into Hell for eternity. I told them that God said that evildoers will be punished righteously, and gave several quotes from the Bible. But then they said "Hell isn't punishment, it's torture. Punishment is meant to correct people when they do wrong, but if we are condemned to Hell for eternity than that is torture. A perfect God wouldn't choose to torture people for all eternity, no one deserves that no matter how sinful they have been."

This made me very angry because I know there's more to it than that, but frankly I didn't know what to say to them...I think that to make an excuse like "nobody deserves Hell no matter what" is to justify clinging to evil ways, yet at the same time the idea of God choosing to make people suffer forever bothers me. I know God is a loving God and he rewards those who follow him, but is it really a perfect thing to make people suffer forever?


They were right. A loving and GOOD God wouldn't do that. And he didn't.

I used to believe in that and I had a huge problem with that. So God has helped me out (and somebody else who was having the same problem). And He revealed to us that there is no eternal torture. And He also said one time (regarding people spreading the idea of eternal hell):
"they profane My Name”.

(Profane means to speak evil of. So God was saying: they speak evil of My Name to suggest the idea that I would create something like this)

So I was thinking: ok, there is no eternal torture, so that means that the bad ones will be annialiated? And God said: "everyone will be born again"

And I thought: but there is such a thing as impossibility, and He said: "everything is possible with God"

And He even added something kind of funny if you think about it, it's about BORG episodes from star trek show. He said: "resistance is futile, you will be assimilated".

To make this statement a little bit more clear here is a little explanation about Borg in Star Trek shows (science fiction). BORG is an alien race. And this BORG collective lands on planets and converts everybody into themselves and makes them a part of the BORG collective, and this way BORG grows. And usually, when they land on the planet, they make this proclamation: "resistance is futile, everybody will be assimilated".

Well, in this case, I am very happy to hear that proclamation. That means that EVENTUALLY (in God's timing) everybody will be cleansed from sin, born again, forgiven and will become a part of the new creation and will enjoy the benefits of living with God.

People say: but some people don't want God! I say: baloney. They are simply blinded by the evil outside (the god of this age blinds the minds of the unbelievers) and they are held bondage with their evil emotions by the evil inside of them. People are blinded and are in bondage and are fed lies. This is the reason they don't want God. God has a purpose in letting things be this way for a while. But His overall plan is to rescue all from the evil one. God is a rescuer. He is not hell creator. He is a rescuer. (I am not saying that there is no such thing as "hell". "Hell" is simply a place where somebody is having an unpleasant time". And there probably is such a place for a time, for corrective purposes. But hell will be thrown into the lake of fire at the end. It will END. And people, having gone through the CORRECTIVE punishment will be forgiven and made a part of the new creation.

We assume that God is weak and there is nothing He can do about MOST of the human kind going to hell. Or worse yet, He SENDS them there. So God created this wonderful thing : humans. And then He lost to the evil one. He lost most of the creation. How does that make God more powerful than the evil one?

But He told me: "how can I lose"?

If God WANTS all people to be saved as it says in one verse, than God gets what He wants, doesn't He? He cannot lose to the evil one. It SEEMS to us like He lost becasue we don't understand His plan and His purposes. Don't you think that God would be powerful enough to have the message of salvation coming from all the radio stations and movie stations? Wouldn't He be powerful enough to bring His Gospel to those who never heard of it? Of course He would if that were His plan. But His plan is a little different from what we think. And His plan involves saving ALL at the end.

But here is what He said:

Luk 13:32 He replied, "Go tell that fox, 'I will drive out demons and heal people today and tomorrow, and on the third day I will reach my goal.'

See? It says that God will reach His goal of driving out ALL the demons on the third day. He will reach His goal of healing the people. And it says that this is what the lake of fire is for: for the devil and his angels. This is how God is going to get rid of demons and evil in the world.

Mat 25:41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

The devil and his angels (demons) are ALL THE EVIL of the WORLD. And it's for THEM that this fire was prepared. And it's not that they are going to burn in there for the whole eternity as we think. It's more like the EVIL will be destroyed BY the lake of fire. And people who go through the lake of fire will have evil removed from them.


The Bible does say that there is punishment. But like they said, it's for corrective purposes. It's in accordance with a LOVE God. Love does not seek its own. Everything is done for our best.

I believed this since God told me. But I knew that people would have a hard time taking someone's word for it. So I prayed that God would help me find evidence of this in the Bible. And I wrote this document and hopefully, you can see what I saw in this:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7437431/
 
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sbbqb7n16

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The greater the God, the greater the sin against Him.

So when you sin against an all powerful, infinite God, you get an infinite punishment.

What kind of a god would it be who when you sin aggregiously, you stub your toe? That's it? Well that's not too bad. Well how bad is too bad? and who gets to decide that?

FYI - in the atheist world, death is also an infinite sentence. Once you're dead, you're dead for eternity.
 
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jpcedotal

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It is very shaky ground to believe in God and heaven and not believe in hell and eternal death. To do this, one has to completely disregard parts of the Bible and some of these disregarded parts are direct quotes of Jesus Christ our Savior.

God does not dislike sin, HE HATES SIN.

IF one doesn't believe in hell, then one is worshiping the wrong god.
 
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Hakan101

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Thank you everyone for your responses, and childofGod31, thank you for the document, I am still reading it now for it is very long, but I really appreciate the detail you took in writing it.

I think now that from what you all have said, the issue with those whom I was arguing with was that they did not understand the significance of God or of sin, and seemed to regard God and Christ as common people. But of course they are not, for God created us and all the world, and gave Christ to die the ultimate sacrifice so we could have eternal life. Thank you again for your inputs and God bless you all.
 
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singpeace

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It's good that you are witnessing to others. May I make a suggestion?

When I witness to others; regardless of who they are, I try to remember what the scriptures say about how Jesus treated, spoke to, and regarded those who were not part of God's chosen people (called unclean, sinner, wicked...). He was always going to their homes for dinner and spending time with them. He healed them. He spoke lovingly to them. He comforted them while He told them about God's plan of Salvation.

Who did Jesus rebuke... openly... in front of everyone? The religious leaders. They not only NEVER invited Jesus to their homes for dinner, they gossiped and said He was a drunkard and a glutton. They treated the nonbelievers without compassion. It was their way or the highway. Jesus openly called them vipers and snakes and hypocrites.

Before I post replies to anyone, I wait a moment and read what I've written. I let God direct me to re-word or delete things. He wants to be talking to them through me. A soft and loving answer will turn away wrath and cause a nonbeliever to be open to hear some more. But they are often already on their guard because they expect a Christian to judge, condemn, and get offended when they aren't converted.

When you are opposed; don't take it personal, and when you feel yourself getting angry, just take a breath and concentrate on Jesus for a couple of minutes until your peace returns. You'll do fine.

I hope I don't sound condescending.
 
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