Hell

[Butch5]

How would one consolidate the idea of worship of an omni-benevolent creator with his opening a fire pit first meant for Satan and his angels. So as to allow fallen humans to also suffer for eternity?

People don't burn for eternity.

 

[Lazarus Short]

I agree that the "Hell" that many believe in doesn't exist. However, I would submit that the dead are not currently suffering.

Like the OP, I spent time with my KJV, the OED (the most authoritative English dictionary known to man), a Strong's, a Young's, and a slew of www resources. With these tools, I ran the origins of sheol, hades, gehenna, hell, and tartarus to ground. The most telling thing I found about Hell is that in one of the old languages and mythologies of pagan north Europe, the goddess or ogress of the underworld was called "Hel," and her realm went by the same name. In the wide scope of the breadth of Indo-European languages, I see this as a direct parallel of the Greek Hades: goddess and realm.

Again, I pose a question: "Hel" is pagan, but "Hell" is Christian?

 

[Gentlemantech48]

This word conjures up a variety of scenarios and has been used as a club wielded by the clergy for hundreds of years to keep funds coming in and in return, the clergy would attempt to keep the faithful from the clutches of hell.

Now, let's get down to it. The English word "Hell" does not have its origin in the Hebrew or Greek. It originates in an old anglo-saxon word with two variations in spelling: Helle and Helan Its original definition is a hidden place.
Translators took this word and substituted it in place of four other words in the original text, and these are as follows:
Sheol = Hebrew- meaning the grave.
Hades = Greek - meaning a hidden place
Gehenna = Greek - the garbage pit where fires consumed refuse tossed into it.
Tartarus = Homer, who used this word as the underground prison for the giants. This word is only found once where it was substituted for Hell. The early revisers changed the phrase "Thrown down to tartarus" and switched it to hell.
Each and every time the reader comes across the word hell it is one of these other terms.
Now, if one takes all these words and meanings and lumps them together you get a scene of a hidden place, where the dead go, an underground pit where fires burn unceasingly. Frightful picture is it not? That was their aim. I hate to think of how many church goers lived their whole lives in fear of going to a place which does not exist.
Hell is not the lake of fire, which will be a one time event at the end of the millennium.
Those who go into that will be utterly consumed - a final death. Satan will also go into this lake. He is the son of perdition. Perdition means to turn to ash from within and without - to perish.
Now I know that there are people that wish there was a hell, for we all want evil doers, murderers, rapists, kidnappers etc. to burn in hell for eternity as just reward for their evil.....I am with you. But since it is not real, then what?
The rich man could see Lazarus with Christ across a gulf that could not be crossed.
Being held in that state was torture of a kind and there are a great many metaphors and figures of speech and idioms one can sort through.....feeling as one's mouth and tongue are on fire and so forth. A self realization that the rich man as well as countless others are there until the millennium. Those from before were freed by Christ when he rose, but all the rest must remain for now. For the student interested in more information about the millennial period, read the last 8 or 9 chapters of the book of Ezekiel.
Now after the lake of fire event, it will be sealed over and done away with along with all and any memory of those who went into it.
Heaven is where God is and since the full Godhead defacto will be here on earth, you cannot have an open burning lake and thoughts of screaming tortured souls in it and have peace and no more tears. It would not be Heaven.

 

[Gentlemantech48]

You've opened up an interesting question. I will have to do a lot more research on this to come to a conclusion. I don't know how many times I've gone to the Lord in prayer and asked Him "why is it necessary that people would suffer for eternity. Why don't You simply put them to sleep?" We all know there are people who live a very good life, are very kind and loving, sometimes they even live a moral life that puts some Christians (like me) to shame. So, they reject God's plan for salvation and miss eternity in the presence of God. Why then can't they simply just go to sleep and never wake? Have they really deserved to suffer for eternity? It's always bothered me. It's not that I reject the idea of hell outright but it certainly doesn't seem to fit God's loving grace. Maybe I won't know the answer until I enter eternity but I'm sure going to do some more research on it. Many atheists and agnostics use the excuse of "no Hell" to live the way they want to. Many religions such as Jehovah's Witness began because the founder could not except the idea of an eternal Hell. So instead of living their life according to the Gospel, they reject the parts of the Gospel they don't like and rewrite The Word of God. Whether you believe in Hell or not, rewriting God's Word is a really, really a stupid thing to do!!!

 

[Shempster]

There are two purposes for the notion of an eternal torturous hell.
1. From Satans point of view: he wants to tarnish God's image and cause people to think He is vindictive and harsh and will show no mercy. He will crush anyone who slips. "Be ye perfect" or you'll get your just desserts.
2. From the churches point of view: hell is great for scaring parishoners into submission. Its also a suitable punishment for those heathen that just kept smoking cigarettes when we warned them that God hates tobbacco.

 

[SarahsKnight]

There are two purposes for the notion of an eternal torturous hell.
1. From Satans point of view: he wants to tarnish God's image and cause people to think He is vindictive and harsh and will show no mercy. He will crush anyone who slips. "Be ye perfect" or you'll get your just desserts.
2. From the churches point of view: hell is great for scaring parishoners into submission. Its also a suitable punishment for those heathen that just kept smoking cigarettes when we warned them that God hates tobbacco.

Exactly.

 

[SarahsKnight]

The Book of Jude says they are punished in "eternal fire."
You seem to be arguing with the Book of Jude, and so arguing with the Bible.
They serve as an example if you believe what the Bible says.

Wait. How was I arguing with the book of Jude on that, now?

 

[Timothew]

You've opened up an interesting question. I will have to do a lot more research on this to come to a conclusion. I don't know how many times I've gone to the Lord in prayer and asked Him "why is it necessary that people would suffer for eternity. Why don't You simply put them to sleep?" We all know there are people who live a very good life, are very kind and loving, sometimes they even live a moral life that puts some Christians (like me) to shame. So, they reject God's plan for salvation and miss eternity in the presence of God. Why then can't they simply just go to sleep and never wake? Have they really deserved to suffer for eternity? It's always bothered me. It's not that I reject the idea of hell outright but it certainly doesn't seem to fit God's loving grace. Maybe I won't know the answer until I enter eternity but I'm sure going to do some more research on it. Many atheists and agnostics use the excuse of "no Hell" to live the way they want to. Many religions such as Jehovah's Witness began because the founder could not except the idea of an eternal Hell. So instead of living their life according to the Gospel, they reject the parts of the Gospel they don't like and rewrite The Word of God. Whether you believe in Hell or not, rewriting God's Word is a really, really a stupid thing to do!!!

Good post. This website may help you in your study, rethinkinghell.com

May God bless you richly iin your studies.

 

[Butch5]

Like the OP, I spent time with my KJV, the OED (the most authoritative English dictionary known to man), a Strong's, a Young's, and a slew of www resources. With these tools, I ran the origins of sheol, hades, gehenna, hell, and tartarus to ground. The most telling thing I found about Hell is that in one of the old languages and mythologies of pagan north Europe, the goddess or ogress of the underworld was called "Hel," and her realm went by the same name. In the wide scope of the breadth of Indo-European languages, I see this as a direct parallel of the Greek Hades: goddess and realm.

Again, I pose a question: "Hel" is pagan, but "Hell" is Christian?

I'm not getting your point here.

 

[nick notes]

Dear OB77 you mentioned the Rich man and Lazarus. Here is my view...
The Rich man and Lazarus Luke 16:19-21 is a parable.
It’s a clever story with that teaches a lesson .
Parables are not meant to create doctrine.

The Parable of the rich man and Lazarus is not an original parable created by Jesus.
The Jerome Biblical Commentary says….”Similar stories existed in Egypt and among the Rabbis”
The Pelican New Testament Commentaries says …In this parable Jesus was using a familiar folk-tale and adapting it to a new purpose.” “ The story of the wicked rich man and the pious poor man, …..seems to have come originally from Egypt, and was popular among Jewish teachers.
Harpers Bible Commentary says….The story itself is well traveled - versions of it are found in rabbinic as well as Egyptian literature.

IMO there is doubt that this parable was even included in the original autograph.
None of the other Gospels mention this parable.
What is Abraham’s bosom? This phrase is never used anywhere else in the Bible. There is no way to explain this phrase adequately using the Bible.

When you read this parable with a critical eye you start to see that it is full of poetic imagery.
We only can assume that the rich man was a believer and the poor man was a non-believer. The parable is silent on their status.
In Hades and Abraham’s bosom the rich and poor man have bodies. When you die you no longer have a body.
Would you expect that one could see from Hades to Abraham’s bosom?
The imagery of Lazarus dipping his finger in water and cooling the rich man’s tongue is meant to be a ridiculous image. The rich man would need a fire truck to cool off in Hades.

What is often ignored by those who wish to create doctrine using this parable is that the lesson of the parable doesn’t fit contemporary Christian doctrine. The lesson is that if you want to avoid Hades rely on Moses and the Prophets. But Christians believe they have been freed from the curse of the Law, and the most important thing is to believe in Jesus and not be bound by the Law of Moses.

 

[Lazarus Short]

I'm not getting your point here.

OK, what is not getting across? I try to be as plain as I can.

 

[nick notes]

OK, what is not getting across? I try to be as plain as I can.

The point is that some Christians use the parable of the rich man and Lazarus for doctrine on Hell....but it is not.

 

[Lazarus Short]

The point is that some Christians use the parable of the rich man and Lazarus for doctrine on Hell....but it is not.

The post in question does not mention that parable. Having stepped on Butch5's implied question, maybe you could explain which side of the parable you fall on...

 

[nick notes]

The post in question does not mention that parable. Having stepped on Butch5's implied question, maybe you could explain which side of the parable you fall on...

I agree with the lesson the parable teaches...
But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’

 

[Lazarus Short]

I agree with the lesson the parable teaches...
But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’

In the same way, if people have a carnal need to believe in something, their carnality will fight anything trying to persuade them otherwise. In the case of Hell, they are not willing to give up believing that their personal enemies are going to Hell, even though their Lord and Savior told them to move on to forgiveness. They never realize that they, too, are someone's personal enemy, and that compared to Jesus the Christ, we are all wicked.

I suspect that the base problem with those not persuaded in Jesus' time, and those not persuaded today, is that they read the Word of God through theological filters, and if not in the original languages, in Bibles translated through theological filters.

 

[nick notes]

In the same way, if people have a carnal need to believe in something, their carnality will fight anything trying to persuade them otherwise. In the case of Hell, they are not willing to give up believing that their personal enemies are going to Hell, even though their Lord and Savior told them to move on to forgiveness. They never realize that they, too, are someone's personal enemy, and that compared to Jesus the Christ, we are all wicked.

I suspect that the base problem with those not persuaded in Jesus' time, and those not persuaded today, is that they read the Word of God through theological filters, and if not in the original languages, in Bibles translated through theological filters.

That is happening today even now.

 

[Butch5]

OK, what is not getting across? I try to be as plain as I can.

I'm not sure what you're asking in your question. Are you asking if hell is real or f it comes from pagan religions?

 

[Lazarus Short]

I'm not sure what you're asking in your question. Are you asking if hell is real or f it comes from pagan religions?

OK, I think we're on the same page now. To answer you, what I have been doing is trying to determine if Hell, word and concept, is in the Bible, or if Hell, word and concept, came from some other source. My study of pagan European mythology, brief as it was, was enough to tell me where the word came from. A study of the KJV showed that the concept did not come from there, but we all know that every (or nearly every) pagan religion had something like Hell. Further, knowing of the syncretism in Christianity as it came into contact with pagan culture after pagan culture, I think it's a safe bet that it came from an external source. It's just like the pagan holiday of Samhain becoming "Christian" by it being given a new name like "All Hallows Eve," or "All Saints' Eve" or just "Halloween." My pagan daughter gleefully tells me that "Christianity has pagan DNA." She is correct, but I am trying to rid my understanding of Christianity of any "pagan DNA."

 

[Butch5]

OK, I think we're on the same page now. To answer you, what I have been doing is trying to determine if Hell, word and concept, is in the Bible, or if Hell, word and concept, came from some other source. My study of pagan European mythology, brief as it was, was enough to tell me where the word came from. A study of the KJV showed that the concept did not come from there, but we all know that every (or nearly every) pagan religion had something like Hell. Further, knowing of the syncretism in Christianity as it came into contact with pagan culture after pagan culture, I think it's a safe bet that it came from an external source. It's just like the pagan holiday of Samhain becoming "Christian" by it being given a new name like "All Hallows Eve," or "All Saints' Eve" or just "Halloween." My pagan daughter gleefully tells me that "Christianity has pagan DNA." She is correct, but I am trying to rid my understanding of Christianity of any "pagan DNA."

Agreed, Christmas too is of pagan origin. However, you can tell your pagan daughter that Christianity has no pagan DNA. It's what is taught today as Christianity that has the pagan DNA. It was through a study of early Christianity that I came to realize that what is taught today is very different than what was taught in the beginning. They are so different that they almost different religions, in my opinion.

 

[Der Alte]

Agreed, Christmas too is of pagan origin. [Nonsense!] However, you can tell your pagan daughter that Christianity has no pagan DNA. It's what is taught today as Christianity that has the pagan DNA.[Nonsense!] It was through a study of early Christianity that I came to realize that what is taught today is very different than what was taught in the beginning.[Nonsense!] They are so different that they almost different religions, in my opinion.[Nonsense!]

All total nonsense! The Christian observance of the birth of Jesus has nothing to do with anything pagan!