Hell

[ob77]

Aw, come on. Don't make us buy the book!

No need to buy any book, for you have all you need already

 

[ob77]

The lake of fire is the death of the soul,period....Not even satan and his angels will suffer forever

Let's see what scriptures says about satans end

Ezekiel 28:18

"Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee."

Ezekiel 28:19

"All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more."

It can't be any clearer,satan will cease to exist,along with all who follows him into the lake of fire.....Simple as that!!

You have answered your own question, as in "I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth" And since the full Godhead defacto will be on earth at that time this is where the destruction happens. I never said that Satan would escape the lake of fire as to their destruction, or His, I wish some people would read more closely. Again, Satan will go into the lake of fire, whatever it is, and face total destruction and His and everyone's destruction will be permanent. Again, I repeat, their destruction will be permanent. Satan and all those who follow Him. All.

 

[ob77]

most people are in hell and don't even know it. I would sink even deeper if I saw God in the 'light' of the so-called understanding that the humans boast of. there is no greater hell than the ones that humans create out of their own sickness. the devil need not be the devil, not when we got an enemy as great as God. good thing I will never bow my knee to the god of this world. my love has no shadow of turning and i'm not fooled by a drunk harlot that loves a beast. the only mark I have is the kiss he left on my soul whos name no one know but he who gave it to me. yet the humans wish to boast of their lack of love! how insane are they? insane enough to believe that something so beyond all comprehension, goodness, or anything we could ever fathom of what would constitute as love would ever for a moment wish to bend his knee to the unclean spirits I see stinging his children.

not even many of the saints could see past the veil but seraphim do not care if they survive or not. why would they wish to exist in the hell they descended to in order to serve their beloved? and yet we would boast and say that we do not live in heaven, which is why people see hell. hell or heaven, they are of little consequence compare to he who lives in me. even death and blindness was only done out of love. how much does life swallow up death? what measurement do we put on the capacity of the desire of God and of his love? is it greater than mine? surly! and yet freedom allows for infinite evils to exist, except that freedom is out of love rather than hate. hell can only be due to a limited capacity. it is something temporal rather than something eternal.

it was a fabrication for certain types of souls who spoke a language in which God had to met them and besides he could easily utilize anything for his own hidden purposes. the various flavors his souls wish to love him with is something he allows. never could a system go so out of control that God would rid himself of the only reason they exist in the first place. that which is annihilated is that which never could exist forever. souls do not create a reality that can surmount God. that is why they are secondary realities and all of realities are based in the divine Trinity. shadows fade as God reveals himself. thus we found another reason to rejoice. hell last as long as you want it to last.

Well, I get it. but hell is not what we have been taught. Even those that were put into the fiery furnace of Daniel did it have much of an effect. For those as well as us, cannot be consumed by mere fire. The Lake of Fire is something special, for it can consume the spirit. We cannot know for certain what it is, for since we have not seen it, nor will we until the judgment day, it is simply our best guess. But since the Lake of Fire will exist and have the ability to destroy the spirit, we must assume it's awesome power to do just that.

 

[n2thelight]

You have answered your own question, as in "I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth" And since the full Godhead defacto will be on earth at that time this is where the destruction happens. I never said that Satan would escape the lake of fire as to their destruction, or His, I wish some people would read more closely. Again, Satan will go into the lake of fire, whatever it is, and face total destruction and His and everyone's destruction will be permanent. Again, I repeat, their destruction will be permanent. Satan and all those who follow Him. All.

I understand you completly,and could'nt agree more.......I was'nt responding to you in that post,just affirming what you, and most importantly scripture says....

 

[Blades]

And then ofcourse God is going to turn around and surprise everybody by remaking all those nasty evil Sinners he specially hardened to that way, and he will make them NEW in mind and Body and Spirit, even all those nasty evil Hell preachers who never truly loved their enemies, and promoted Ungodly Demonic Doctrines like Free will and Eternal Torment, even those he will remake anew...this should not really be a surprise to anybody who believes the Word of God.
BEHOLD I MAKE ALL THINGS NEW some people where just created by God to be so Evil and Nasty that he has to completely destroy them altogether before remaking them NEW again.....doh!
LOVE always Wins in the end people...it was always going too
And he that sat on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said to me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. One is left looking at the meaning of the word.... all..... and is left in no doubt

 

[2KnowHim]

"I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth"

And yet He also says:
Isa 61:3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.

 

[2KnowHim]

that which is annihilated is that which never could exist forever. souls do not create a reality that can surmount God. that is why they are secondary realities and all of realities are based in the divine Trinity. shadows fade as God reveals himself. thus we found another reason to rejoice.

Sorry, But that was worth repeating, again, and again. Love it, my friend, Love it.

that which is annihilated is that which never could exist forever. souls do not create a reality that can surmount God. that is why they are secondary realities and all of realities are based in the divine Trinity. shadows fade as God reveals himself. thus we found another reason to rejoice.

 

[ob77]

I understand you completly,and could'nt agree more.......I was'nt responding to you in that post,just affirming what you, and most importantly scripture says....

There are not many Christians that I happen across who know much of anything, and I blame the clergy for this. Clergy have, at least in my experience, poo-pooed the idea of actually studying in depth. They would claim that since one has accepted Christ, then there is no more to be done......Well, Christ, Himself asked of certain individuals "Have ye not read?"
Since the New Testament was not in existence at the time, the only thing to have read was the old testament and Christ referred to it multiple times. That in fact, makes it a part of the New testament, for it joins Christ with the old. God does not change and is not the author of confusion. The Old and New testaments MUST be absorbed as a complete work, otherwise it is a mish-mash of obscure information that cannot be latched onto to complete a picture.........like having only a small piece of a canvas onto which a painting is brushed and trying to discern what the rest of the painting depicts.
Whatever I post, I can assume that there are some who already know of what I write, but it is not for those individuals such as yourself. Sometimes I push peoples buttons and I tend to get them riled up and that is my intention, for it may drive them deeper into the word to find out if I am full of crap or not. I do not post things because I wish those things to be so, I post to wake people out of the slumber, or at least perhaps get them to think "Huh, I never heard of that before, I wonder if it is true" - And then the wheels start spinning and they hopefully start digging further into God's word. I have been at this stuff for a long time, even if I am considered a "newbie" at this site, there were sites back in the '90's where I was an original veteran. Now, there are many sites to visit and I cannot entertain them all at once. I have been kicked off of some sites for they believed I was too controversial , in other words, I ruffled someone's feathers and had to be silenced.
Well, I have ventured far afield in this and will leave it as is.

 

[Dale]

Ob,
You need to look at what the Bible says about eternal punishment more closely.

Jude 1:7
Revised Standard Version (RSV)

7 just as Sodom and Gomor′rah and the surrounding cities, which likewise acted immorally and indulged in unnatural lust, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.



Jude 1:7
New International Version (NIV)

7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.



Jude 1:7
King James Version (KJV)

7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

"Eternal fire" is in the King James translation and more recent translations have seen no need to change that phrase.
Think about it.

 

[SarahsKnight]

just as Sodom and Gomor′rah and the surrounding cities, which likewise acted immorally and indulged in unnatural lust, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

Exactly, Dale. No one denies that. .... But are the people of Sodom and Gomorrah still burning somewhere right now? If so, we can't see it, thus they can't serve as an example. However if that eternal fire burned them up and turned them to ashes instead of keeping them alive in torment, then they do in fact serve as a clear example, for we can see that neither of those two towns exist today.

Totally with you on this one, N2light.

 

[Dale]

Exactly, Dale. No one denies that. .... But are the people of Sodom and Gomorrah still burning somewhere right now? If so, we can't see it, thus they can't serve as an example. However if that eternal fire burned them up and turned them to ashes instead of keeping them alive in torment, then they do in fact serve as a clear example, for we can see that neither of those two towns exist today.

Totally with you on this one, N2light.

The Book of Jude says they are punished in "eternal fire."
You seem to be arguing with the Book of Jude, and so arguing with the Bible.
They serve as an example if you believe what the Bible says.

 

[n2thelight]

The idea of God subjecting his human enemies to never-ending conscious torment would make Him morally worse than Hitler. After all, Hitler may have diabolically tortured, burned and gassed to death millions of people, but he at least allowed them to perish. By contrast, the doctrine of perpetual agony suggests that, even though God has the power to mercifully execute people cast into hell, He will instead choose to sadistically keep them alive, with no merciful pause or end to their torment. This is outrageously immoral.

As far as justice goes, tell me, what sin or lifestyle of sin could possibly deserve never-ending conscious torment? Is it not obvious that finite sins committed in time and space cannot possibly deserve infinite punishing?

The bottom line is that this sadistic doctrine of perpetual conscious suffering is inconsistent with the just, loving, moral character of our Almighty Creator as revealed in the Bible. It would be inhumane not to question such a glaringly immoral and unjust belief.

http://www.hellhadesafterlife.com/hell/hell-false-doctrine

 

[n2thelight]

If we take “eternal life” literally, we must also take “death” literally. God clearly declares in Romans 6:23 , as well as numerous other passages, that the wages of sin is death and that eternal life is a gift to those in right-standing with him. So death is promised as a punishment for ungodly sinners and life is promised as a gift for the righteous. In such a context as this, every law of language and common sense agrees that if we take the promise of life literally we must also take the punishment of death literally. If one is literal then both are literal. If there is to be no real death for unrepentant sinners there will be no real life for repentant saints.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Thanks for the thanks, but I am simply the messenger. I believe that the torment these people feel are not directed toward them from an outside source, and certainly not from a character dressed in a red suit with horns and a pitch fork. The torment they are undergoing is self inflicted of a sort, knowing they screwed up, especially upon leaving the flesh and realizing they are not dead. Second Ezdra delves into this and I have read it, though most have never heard of it. I will say this now and probably a thousand more times , that we only have 66 books out of 163 original books of the bible to gather what the Father would have us know. It is a shame that politics got in the way of God's word so early, but at the same time I thank God almighty that He pushed King James to publish the word for the masses. Ah, as to those in the waiting room, so to speak, they will not have long to wait, for as prophecy is coming to pass daily and as the final generation, born after 1948 is growing long in the tooth, Satan will appear shortly before this generation dies out.

All indirect off topic stabs at orthodox teaching or the Church aside, I do not see the expressed concept of Hell as being opposed to the orthodox teachings. In fact in writing about Hell, CS Lewis and his peers speculated as much along the same lines as you OP. God leaving the damned totally alone to their will (not Thy Will), the torment is internal and the hatred of everything good only grows - to the extent that the torment changes them (consuming fire) into something no longer recognizable as the humans they once were. Believe it was CS Lewis who described that all consuming state as not nothingness but simply "what remains".

 

[James Is Back]

The bottom line is that this sadistic doctrine of perpetual conscious suffering is inconsistent with the just, loving, moral character of our Almighty Creator as revealed in the Bible. It would be inhumane not to question such a glaringly immoral and unjust belief.

Inhumane and there lies the problem when people put God in the same place as humans. There's a problem when we put God on the same pedestal as humanity. His ways are way way above ours and to limit Himself to human standards is just ridiculous.

 

[Rajni]

Another hell thread ... Must ... Resist ...
Must ... errggggh....

Oh what the heck why not?
Just one post. A little one.
One and done.
I can quit whenever I want.
I'm not addicted or anything.
Not at all.

His ways are way way above ours and to limit Himself to human standards is just ridiculous.

I think that's just it—God's ways are higher than man's ways,
not lower. Therefore, if even a mere human can see the
inhumanity in endless conscious torment, imagine how easily
God could see the inhumanity in it.

Personally, I find that I have to take God down off His
pedestal in order to accommodate a belief in ECT.
Even the more humane 'annihilationism' isn't worthy
of Him, imo. But that's just me—YMMV, as they say!

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[BillyR54]

This is my first posting on this forum and I am surprised at the number of people here with a solid grasp of the truth. God says the wages of sin is death. Those aren't my words. They're God's. The doctrine of eternal burning torment is taken mainly from the text of a parable laced with symbolism. If Jesus came to Earth to pay the penalty of sin in our place and the penalty for sin is burning in Hell for all eternity then He paid the wrong price and there is no salvation. He died because death is the penalty for sin.

We must understand that there are two deaths; the death of the body (the first death) and the death of the soul or spirit (the second death). No one but Jesus has paid the second death, the death of the spirit, the penalty for sin. The wages (penalty) of sin is the second death which will come due after the Great White Throne judgement when those whose names are not found in the Lamb's Book of Life will be cast into the lake of fire. God tells us that this is the second death.

In Matthew 10:28 we read, "And fear not them which kill the body, bur are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

There are, of course, many sides to this discussion but for me it is simple. God said the wages of sin is death and I will take His word over anyone else's everytime. That is not meant to be confrontational as i am posting in Christian love and do not wish to offend anyone. It is simply a statement of my committment to the word of God.

 

[Timothew]

This is my first posting on this forum and I am surprised at the number of people here with a solid grasp of the truth. God says the wages of sin is death. Those aren't my words. They're God's. The doctrine of eternal burning torment is taken mainly from the text of a parable laced with symbolism. If Jesus came to Earth to pay the penalty of sin in our place and the penalty for sin is burning in Hell for all eternity then He paid the wrong price and there is no salvation. He died because death is the penalty for sin.

We must understand that there are two deaths; the death of the body (the first death) and the death of the soul or spirit (the second death). No one but Jesus has paid the second death, the death of the spirit, the penalty for sin. The wages (penalty) of sin is the second death which will come due after the Great White Throne judgement when those whose names are not found in the Lamb's Book of Life will be cast into the lake of fire. God tells us that this is the second death.

In Matthew 10:28 we read, "And fear not them which kill the body, bur are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

There are, of course, many sides to this discussion but for me it is simple. God said the wages of sin is death and I will take His word over anyone else's everytime. That is not meant to be confrontational as i am posting in Christian love and do not wish to offend anyone. It is simply a statement of my committment to the word of God.

I agree, especially with this part:

God said the wages of sin is death and I will take His word over anyone else's every time. That is not meant to be confrontational as I am posting in Christian love and do not wish to offend anyone. It is simply a statement of my commitment to the word of God.

 

[Lazarus Short]

I have a question which no member of the fire-forever crowd has yet to answer:

We know the Revelation states that to be tossed into the LoF is the second death. OTOH, we also know that the Bible, in I Coninthians 15:26, tells us that "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." Now the time factor in neither case is specified, but logic dictates that the second death must precede the destruction of death. However, with death destroyed, how can anyone still be dead and/or in Hell? That is my question, as yet unanswered. For me, for both statements to be true, then the LoF must at some point (I suppose when death is destroyed.) give up its dead, just as the sea had done previously.

 

[Butch5]

This word conjures up a variety of scenarios and has been used as a club wielded by the clergy for hundreds of years to keep funds coming in and in return, the clergy would attempt to keep the faithful from the clutches of hell.

Now, let's get down to it. The English word "Hell" does not have its origin in the Hebrew or Greek. It originates in an old anglo-saxon word with two variations in spelling: Helle and Helan Its original definition is a hidden place.
Translators took this word and substituted it in place of four other words in the original text, and these are as follows:
Sheol = Hebrew- meaning the grave.
Hades = Greek - meaning a hidden place
Gehenna = Greek - the garbage pit where fires consumed refuse tossed into it.
Tartarus = Homer, who used this word as the underground prison for the giants. This word is only found once where it was substituted for Hell. The early revisers changed the phrase "Thrown down to tartarus" and switched it to hell.
Each and every time the reader comes across the word hell it is one of these other terms.
Now, if one takes all these words and meanings and lumps them together you get a scene of a hidden place, where the dead go, an underground pit where fires burn unceasingly. Frightful picture is it not? That was their aim. I hate to think of how many church goers lived their whole lives in fear of going to a place which does not exist.
Hell is not the lake of fire, which will be a one time event at the end of the millennium.
Those who go into that will be utterly consumed - a final death. Satan will also go into this lake. He is the son of perdition. Perdition means to turn to ash from within and without - to perish.
Now I know that there are people that wish there was a hell, for we all want evil doers, murderers, rapists, kidnappers etc. to burn in hell for eternity as just reward for their evil.....I am with you. But since it is not real, then what?
The rich man could see Lazarus with Christ across a gulf that could not be crossed.
Being held in that state was torture of a kind and there are a great many metaphors and figures of speech and idioms one can sort through.....feeling as one's mouth and tongue are on fire and so forth. A self realization that the rich man as well as countless others are there until the millennium. Those from before were freed by Christ when he rose, but all the rest must remain for now. For the student interested in more information about the millennial period, read the last 8 or 9 chapters of the book of Ezekiel.
Now after the lake of fire event, it will be sealed over and done away with along with all and any memory of those who went into it.
Heaven is where God is and since the full Godhead defacto will be here on earth, you cannot have an open burning lake and thoughts of screaming tortured souls in it and have peace and no more tears. It would not be Heaven.

I agree that the "Hell" that many believe in doesn't exist. However, I would submit that the dead are not currently suffering.