Hebrews 10:26 / 6:4-6 / 12:14-17

[corinth77777]

You are correct: in view is the Hebrew people specifically, just as the example given in ch.3 also speaks of the Hebrew people (and of course we do not discount the mixed multitude, even as we would not preclude application to Gentile believers among the Hebrew Christians who would hear this epistle read).

No-one was "saved" under the Law, and that is the distinction that has to be made between the two Covenants, which the writer does numerous times throughout the epistle. Read chs.7-10 to see how the two covenants are distinguished. In chapter 9-10 this is particularly a specific intention, and we see that the Law afforded only a shadow, a figure (same word translated "parable") of the good things to come, which the writer impresses upon his people...those things have come.

Now what would we say that "the end of the Law" means in the context of the Book of Hebrews?


God bless.

No one was saved under the law...but they were covered until...faith came...another wards because of the weakness of their flesh works would not save them.......but they were kept by the symbols of Christ under the law until he was revealed. Liken to adam and eve sin was not inputed until they had knowledge...so no ...the law could not give them salvation because their flesh was weak....yet they were still saved by the symbols under it..."kepted" until faith came.......so..point is they shared symbolically in being being saved by the offerrings and sacrifices...liken to a tree and the purpose and season for its branches to bear fruit....if the branches come through faith they will be saved eternally...yet if not cut off.....because only by faith can they bear fruit....read about the process of how a branch bears fruit.....I didnt...thats why the exchange..through faith....point is....im alive now.....and have etenal life and will not taste death because I have faith......or one at that time was alive.....and still could have been alive eternally but cut off because of unbelief....I dont know if he is talkung to Gentiles when Hebrews are Jews.

 

[P1LGR1M]

No one was saved under the law...but they were covered until...faith came...another wards because of the weakness of their flesh works would not save them.......but they were kept by the symbols of Christ under the law until he was revealed.

It seems that you are trying to support two very different and opposing views: that they were not saved under Law; they were saved under Law.

One or the other is true, not both.

And we can see in Hebrews why the Old Testament Saints...were not saved according to New Covenant standard, because the New Covenant was not established until Christ died, formally introduced to the World on the Day of Pentecost, when the disciples were Baptized with the Holy Spirit.

You say here that they "were kept by the symbols of Christ under the law until he was revealed."

That is not what the writer teaches in Hebrews:


Hebrews 9:6-10

King James Version (KJV)

6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.

7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:

8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;

10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.


What he is stating here is that the earthly Tabernacle, into which the High Priest entered into...was but a parable, if you will. It was only a figure for the time then present.

As noted in the previous post, we see that the Law could not make him that did the service perfect, or in other words...complete.

Next we see that these services were imposed on them until the time of reformation, which is the coming of Christ and His offering of Himself as The Sacrifice which the law only pictured.


11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.



Eternal Redemption awaited Christ. That is not up for debate. The theme of perfection (completion) the writer threads through this Epistle must be recognized and it's impact on the L.O.S.T. (loss of salvation teachings) is to remove the false basis for teaching loss of salvation. The great irony is that this writer makes it clear beyond shadow of a doubt that those sanctified by Christ are made complete in regards to sin and atonement, through the Atonement of Christ, yet it is used by many to deny the very thing we are to place our faith in.

Let's see what the writer has to say about the un-forgiven sins of the Old Testament Saints:


13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


Again, we see the Two Covenants contrasted: the blood of bulls and goats had atoning value, and truly sins were forgiven...on a temporal and temporary basis.

Because it was only a figure, a parable, a shadow...for this reason He, Christ, is the Mediator of the New Covenant, that through His death, redemption of the transgressions that were under the First Covenant (Covenant of Law), those called might receive the promise, which was the promise of eternal inheritance.

To further make it clear men were not "saved" through the offering of animals which only pictured Christ's death, he goes on to say...


Hebrews 10

King James Version (KJV)

10For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.


A simple question is asked: "If the Law could take away sins through it's services...would they not have ceased?"

The answer is yes.

So to ascribe salvific value to the sacrifices of the Law, and to imply in any way that they saved...conflicts with what the writer of Hebrews states.

Let's look at a few more references to Old Testament Saints and perfection:


Hebrews 11:13

King James Version (KJV)

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.


Hebrews 11:39-40

King James Version (KJV)

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.



They all died without receiving the promises, that they should not be made perfect without us.

He makes another statement that I believe applies to the Old Testament Saints.

First we see again the writer contrast the Two Covenants:


Hebrews 12:18-25

King James Version (KJV)

18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,

19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:

20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:

21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake)


This speaks of the Covenant of Law.

He contrasts this with the New Covenant...



22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,


...and I pause there to point out the Old Testament Saints who were made perfect, like as we, through the shed blood of Christ, who is said to be...



24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:


And again the warning against rejecting Christ is made, and again...the contrast is made between those who rejected the Law. "See that you do not refuse Him Who is speaking.

Who is that?


Hebrews 1

King James Version (KJV)

1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;


Because Christ was made perfect through suffering, He is...


Hebrews 12:2

King James Version (KJV)

2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.


Who is the "we?" As you said before, it is the collective association of Israel.

The faith which has it's beginnings in the First Principles of the Oracles of God, or, the ABCs of Christ in the Old Testament, is made complete in and through Jesus Christ Himself. The Old Testament Saints were not made perfect, simply because before that was possible, their sin had to be eternally atoned for. That Atonement was never accomplished through the Law, and implying it was, and equating it with the salvation now available to men through Christ and the New Covenant relationship we, as born again believers enjoy, conflicts with what the writer, thus the Holy Spirit...teach.

Liken to adam and eve sin was not inputed until they had knowledge...so no ...the law could not give them salvation because their flesh was weak....yet they were still saved by the symbols under it...

No, they were not saved by the symbology. The writer of Hebrews makes it clear that those foundational principles could no longer be appealed to.

In order for one to be saved they are in need of remedy for their sin, and this is only eternally achieved through specific faith in Christ.

The promises of God to Israel awaited fulfillment, even as the promises of God to Abraham, which have their fulfillment in reality in the New Covenant, also awaited fulfillment. Abraham was promised his seed would result in all families of the earth being blessed, and Paul makes it clear how that came about, and that it was not through...the Law:


Galatians 3:13-19

King James Version (KJV)

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.


The New Covenant is the end result of the promises of God, and we can go back to the Garden to see our first reference to the defeat of the enemy of our souls. There is only one means of salvation found in Scripture, and that is through faith in Christ. While Old Testament Saints were declared just, they died in need of being made perfect, and this was accomplished through the Cross of Christ. The Law never saved, even in figure...the first person.


17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.


See the previous statement to see what that promise was.



18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.


The Law did not contain the realization of the promise. It was added because of transgressions, which transgression would be redeemed by Christ when He came.


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

"kepted" until faith came.......so..point is they shared symbolically in being being saved by the offerrings and sacrifices...

Not according to the Book of Hebrews: they died not receiving the promises, and the reason why they did not was specifically because they were under Law, the First Covenant, and had not been brought into relationship with God through the New Covenant, Who is in fact Christ Himself:


Isaiah 42

King James Version (KJV)

1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.

3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.

4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.

5 Thus saith God the Lord, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:

6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;


God never reneged on His promise to Abraham, but fulfillment of those promises He uttered, all of them, awaited Christ, Who is the Covenant.

liken to a tree and the purpose and season for its branches to bear fruit....if the branches come through faith they will be saved eternally...yet if not cut off.....

Paul uses the picture of a tree concerning the provision of God for relationship. In Romans 11 relationship with God is pictured in Israel on a national basis, because it will ever remain true that Israel was created to be in relationship with God. However, we see, again, that the branches cut out are unbelievers. We cannot equate being a branch to salvation, because again, men were not saved through heritage, or in other words, being a member of Israel did not mean one was faithful to God.

In John 15, another familiar euphemism for Israel is used, which is the Vine, which God transplanted from Egypt. Christ states "I am the True Vine," and this passage is used by the L.O.S.T. (loss of salvation teachers) to teach loss of salvation.

My first question is...which of the disciples abided in Christ? The answer is, not the first one of them. Peter went so far as to deny he even knew Who Christ was, and this after he had declared Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the Living God.

John 15, and the teachings Christ provides to the disciples during and after the Last Supper must be distinguished as speaking of future events. One future event He taught of was the receiving of the promise of the Spirit. Not one of the disciples were Baptized with the Holy Spirit at this point, this is clear in Acts 1, so when we look at who is cut out, or cut off, again we see it always has unbelievers, hence the unsaved...in view.

Here is what Christ said would take place in regards to those that did abode in Him:


John 15

King James Version (KJV)


5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.


How is it that the disciples are both branches as well as being told to abide? Quite simple when we look at the fact that to the first century Jew, there would be no question what the Lord meant when He spoke of The Vine. That was Israel. He clarifies to the disciples that they need to abide in Him, which would not be true of all in Israel, but many would be cut out. Same picture we see in Romans 11.

That the Lord is speaking of the future can be seen in His final statement to the disciples, who profess to understand:


John 16:28-32

King James Version (KJV)

28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

29 His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.

30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.

31 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?

32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.


Kind of hard to see obedience to the command "Abide in Me" when, just hours later, that prophesied in the Old Testament as well as by Christ Himself...


Matthew 26:31-34

King James Version (KJV)

31 Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.

32 But after I am risen again, I will go before you into Galilee.

33 Peter answered and said unto him, Though all men shall be offended because of thee, yet will I never be offended.

34 Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.


...will come to pass.

Nowhere in the New Testament do we see support for the L.O.S.T.

Every passage used to teach loss of salvation stands in direct conflict with numerous teachings which make it clear that we are not saved by our own efforts, nor can we maintain our own salvation through works, nor can we disqualify ourselves through sin, which is going to be committed, whether intentionally or unintentionally by every person who is born again. We begin a growth process by which we are conformed to the image of Christ as we grow, the Holy Spirit and the Word of God revealing sin in our lives at which time we become accountable to deal with that sin.

As New Covenant believers, we are told clearly how our salvation is first established (bestowed upon us), and how it is kept:



Titus 3:4-5

King James Version (KJV)

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;



1 Peter 1:3-5

King James Version (KJV)

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.


"Except a man be born again"...he cannot be considered saved.

Were the Old Testament Saints born again? How you answer this question will set the stage for your entire soteriological foundation. Both Peter and Paul note that we have been saved through the new birth, and when we look at the fact that the Old Testament Saints were not made perfect, did not receive the promises, and died still in need of the Atonement only Christ could provide, we do well to give this much consideration before answering.


God bless.

 

[corinth77777]

It seems that you are trying to support two very different and opposing views: that they were not saved under Law; they were saved under Law.

One or the other is true, not both.

And we can see in Hebrews why the Old Testament Saints...were not saved according to New Covenant standard, because the New Covenant was not established until Christ died, formally introduced to the World on the Day of Pentecost, when the disciples were Baptized with the Holy Spirit.

You say here that they "were kept by the symbols of Christ under the law until he was revealed."

That is not what the writer teaches in Hebrews:


Hebrews 9:6-10

King James Version (KJV)

6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.

7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:

8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;

10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.


What he is stating here is that the earthly Tabernacle, into which the High Priest entered into...was but a parable, if you will. It was only a figure for the time then present.

As noted in the previous post, we see that the Law could not make him that did the service perfect, or in other words...complete.

Next we see that these services were imposed on them until the time of reformation, which is the coming of Christ and His offering of Himself as The Sacrifice which the law only pictured.


11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.



Eternal Redemption awaited Christ. That is not up for debate. The theme of perfection (completion) the writer threads through this Epistle must be recognized and it's impact on the L.O.S.T. (loss of salvation teachings) is to remove the false basis for teaching loss of salvation. The great irony is that this writer makes it clear beyond shadow of a doubt that those sanctified by Christ are made complete in regards to sin and atonement, through the Atonement of Christ, yet it is used by many to deny the very thing we are to place our faith in.

Let's see what the writer has to say about the un-forgiven sins of the Old Testament Saints:


13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


Again, we see the Two Covenants contrasted: the blood of bulls and goats had atoning value, and truly sins were forgiven...on a temporal and temporary basis.

Because it was only a figure, a parable, a shadow...for this reason He, Christ, is the Mediator of the New Covenant, that through His death, redemption of the transgressions that were under the First Covenant (Covenant of Law), those called might receive the promise, which was the promise of eternal inheritance.

To further make it clear men were not "saved" through the offering of animals which only pictured Christ's death, he goes on to say...


Hebrews 10

King James Version (KJV)

10For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.


A simple question is asked: "If the Law could take away sins through it's services...would they not have ceased?"

The answer is yes.

So to ascribe salvific value to the sacrifices of the Law, and to imply in any way that they saved...conflicts with what the writer of Hebrews states.

Let's look at a few more references to Old Testament Saints and perfection:


Hebrews 11:13

King James Version (KJV)

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.


Hebrews 11:39-40

King James Version (KJV)

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.



They all died without receiving the promises, that they should not be made perfect without us.

He makes another statement that I believe applies to the Old Testament Saints.

First we see again the writer contrast the Two Covenants:


Hebrews 12:18-25

King James Version (KJV)

18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,

19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:

20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:

21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake)


This speaks of the Covenant of Law.

He contrasts this with the New Covenant...



22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,


...and I pause there to point out the Old Testament Saints who were made perfect, like as we, through the shed blood of Christ, who is said to be...



24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:


And again the warning against rejecting Christ is made, and again...the contrast is made between those who rejected the Law. "See that you do not refuse Him Who is speaking.

Who is that?


Hebrews 1

King James Version (KJV)

1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;


Because Christ was made perfect through suffering, He is...


Hebrews 12:2

King James Version (KJV)

2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.


Who is the "we?" As you said before, it is the collective association of Israel.

The faith which has it's beginnings in the First Principles of the Oracles of God, or, the ABCs of Christ in the Old Testament, is made complete in and through Jesus Christ Himself. The Old Testament Saints were not made perfect, simply because before that was possible, their sin had to be eternally atoned for. That Atonement was never accomplished through the Law, and implying it was, and equating it with the salvation now available to men through Christ and the New Covenant relationship we, as born again believers enjoy, conflicts with what the writer, thus the Holy Spirit...teach.




No, they were not saved by the symbology. The writer of Hebrews makes it clear that those foundational principles could no longer be appealed to.

In order for one to be saved they are in need of remedy for their sin, and this is only eternally achieved through specific faith in Christ.

The promises of God to Israel awaited fulfillment, even as the promises of God to Abraham, which have their fulfillment in reality in the New Covenant, also awaited fulfillment. Abraham was promised his seed would result in all families of the earth being blessed, and Paul makes it clear how that came about, and that it was not through...the Law:


Galatians 3:13-19

King James Version (KJV)

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.


The New Covenant is the end result of the promises of God, and we can go back to the Garden to see our first reference to the defeat of the enemy of our souls. There is only one means of salvation found in Scripture, and that is through faith in Christ. While Old Testament Saints were declared just, they died in need of being made perfect, and this was accomplished through the Cross of Christ. The Law never saved, even in figure...the first person.


17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.


See the previous statement to see what that promise was.



18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.


The Law did not contain the realization of the promise. It was added because of transgressions, which transgression would be redeemed by Christ when He came.


Continued...

To answer your question....salvation existed yet was revealed through the law...Im really not trying to support diff ideals.....yet sometimes if one views scriptures in a scope of defending the faith on a particular area they also may lump scriptures one way as well.....what is under my investigation is meaning of a passage . There is a passage in first peter that states..this is the baptism that saves us now.....while the law...was weak through the flesh it was still spiritual....did baptism ever save? If so how?......as a temporary covering under the law? Until faith came...saved how?...saved for the purpose of bringing one into faith in Christ?..so no...I'm not speaking of...being saved in the fact that people had come to faith and lost it...Im speaking of those who were kept..the branch that led to the revealing of Christ....if they the branch believed they could bear fruit...yet they did not believe so cut off....so yes the people were covered or saved for a purpose....and the purpose was an eternal salvation..only entered in by faith...so need to read your second post since u didnt understand what I was saying. IM ACTUALLY TRYING to give a way to set the stage for understanding scriptures in Hebrews......doesn't mean I'm right but up for discussion if u understand what im trying to say.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Only Christians can fall away from the Christian faith.

That is not correct. The Lord taught often, and we see in numerous passages that there are those who falsely proclaim relationship with the Lord.

That is who is in view in every passage used by the L.O.S.T. (loss of salvation teachers) to teach loss of salvation.

One is either wheat, or chaff. One is either a good tree, or an evil.

Some of them blend in so well that we may even find them doing works which may even be very Christian. Yet for this reason, because they resemble the wheat so well, they are not weeded out, but left to grow until harvest, at which time, just as taught by Christ in the Sheep and Goat Judgment, they will be, as all false believers will be...separated and cast into the fire.

The problem of properly distinguishing between those who are born again and those who are not, or, those who are saved and those who are not, is not really so difficult as those embroiled in the sectarian division between an Arminian and Calvinistic view. Both are in error in that they neglect the ministry of the Comforter Who enlightens men who are without life and the ability to understand spiritual things. When Hebrews 6:1-6 is approached by those of Arminian based soteriology, they ascribe salvation to those the writer exhorts to go on unto perfection and forbids that foundational teachings not be lain again.

This error spills over into every verse, every passage, every Book they expound upon.

Can a Christian fall away from the Christian Faith? Of course, but, we do not exclude the promise of God we find throughout His Word. We are kept by the power of God, not our own power brought about through works.

For the Christian that sins, what is the penalty? Well, it is the same penalty exacted by God prior to the Cross and Pentecost: physical death. Ananias and Sapphira are examples, and Paul speaks of those who unworthily partake of Communion as being sickly, and some even dying.

But when one is born again, they have the eternal life of the Eternal God. This life is bestowed through the washing of the New Birth and the renewing of the Holy Spirit. It is not a substance poured into men, but the indwelling of God Himself, which effects the spiritual resurrection all men are in need of.

We can look at the apostasy that will take place before the Day of the Lord, and rather than seeing these as Christians who lose their salvation, we see them for who Paul describes them as:


2 Thessalonians 2:10-12

King James Version (KJV)

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


These people are tares.

Not Christians.

So we see many who associate with Christ, and we see that the Lord has prepared us for those people, knowing that they will be amongst us. We identify those people primarily through their doctrine, in my view. When we see someone teaching contrary to that which God's Word has established, then we have to question their claim. We understand error in doctrine does not preclude salvation in their lives, thus we do not take it upon ourselves to question their salvation, but, we are commanded to address doctrinal error, even as the pattern of the Lord and the Apostles and Prophets teaches.

And when it comes to identifying who in Scripture is born again, usually the context tells us. Again, can a Christian fall away? I think so, on a temporal basis. We can talk with those who have become angry with God through tragedy, for example, who once professed Christ but now profess atheism. Does their profession change reality? No more than a small child saying "I hate you Mommy!" means that child actually hates their parent. Does the parent withdraw their own love based on the error or emotional reaction of the child?

No. And how much more can we trust our Heavenly Father to do what He has demanded of mere men, to train up our children in the way they should go.

So is it only Christians that fall away from the Christian Faith?

No, we recognize false professors who infiltrate the Church, who profess something they are not, and the damage they do can only be limited by those that, because of reason of use in and of the Word of God, can discern good from evil. It is best to start, I feel, with their doctrine, and I can think of no better place to begin than in the Book of Hebrews.


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

To answer your question....salvation existed yet was revealed through the law...Im really not trying to support diff ideals.....yet sometimes if one views scriptures in a scope of defending the faith on a particular area they also may lump scriptures one way as well.....what is under my investigation is meaning of a passage . There is a passage in first peter that states..this is the baptism that saves us now.....while the law...was weak through the flesh it was still spiritual....did baptism ever save? If so how?......as a temporary covering under the law? Until faith came...saved how?...saved for the purpose of bringing one into faith in Christ?..so no...I'm not speaking of...being saved in the fact that people had come to faith and lost it...Im speaking of those who were kept..the branch that led to the revealing of Christ....if they the branch believed they could bear fruit...yet they did not believe so cut off....so yes the people were covered or saved for a purpose....and the purpose was an eternal salvation..only entered in by faith...so need to read your second post since u didnt understand what I was saying. IM ACTUALLY TRYING to give a way to set the stage for understanding scriptures in Hebrews......doesn't mean I'm right but up for discussion if u understand what im trying to say.

When we speak of branches being cut out, it is best to be specific as to what passage is in view. As mentioned in the previous posts, we have to take these teachings in their context.

The bottom line is that branches being cut out and cast into the fire always speaks of those who are clearly identified as unbelievers. If we try to impose salvation on the parts of unbelievers, we do an injustice to the many passages which clarify this.

In regards to baptism, the passage you mention makes it clear that in view is not an external washing, and Peter makes that clear. Ascribing salvific value to Baptism is not ordinarily a doctrinal view found among Baptists, to my knowledge (and not saying you are doing that, my friend, simply making a point concerning baptism and salvation).

There is but one Baptism which is seen in Scripture as being Salvific, and the teaching concerning this Baptism begins here:


Matthew 3:7-12

King James Version (KJV)

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.


Here, John is baptizing with water, and he contrasts his own baptism with the baptizing the One who comes after him will perform, in which two types are mentioned: with the Holy Spirit, and with fire.

It is my view John's commentary explains these two baptisms, in which we could read this as "He will Baptize with the Holy Ghost, and will gather His wheat into His Garner, and He will baptize with fire and the chaff will be burned up with unquenchable fire."

When we see the fulfillment of the Old Testament promise, as well as the teaching of the Lord Himself (see John 14-16), we can see that the Baptism with the Holy Ghost has a particular time when it begins.

That is the Day of Pentecost.


Acts 1:4-8

King James Version (KJV)

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.


Why this is significant is that we do not, as some of our brothers and sisters in Christ do, fall into the error of equating a water baptism with the Baptism with the Holy Ghost, which certain other of our brethren teach is a subsequent event after salvation.

Christ is the Baptizer, He never uses water, and salvation, if it be independent of the Baptism with the Holy Spirit...is non-existent.

Baptism holds the connotations of cleansing, identification, and association. We have been saved through the washing of regeneration (the new birth) and the renewing of the Holy Spirit (which I believe refers to, not the Holy Spirit renewing us, which is the process of the New Birth, but our restoration of relationship to God through His indwelling)...not an external washing which the writer of Hebrews tells his audience they are not to lay again foundational teachings but to progress to the spiritual realities of salvation in Christ.

John's baptism did not generate repentance, but those professing repentance came to show they had repented and the external act represented cleansing which is promised through repentance. He rebukes the Pharisees (and others) and refuses to baptize them because their works show an opposite truth to their false profession of repentance. Judgment is in view, the ax even then laid to the root of...the tree.

In Hebrews, as you stated earlier, it is collective Israel specifically in view. We keep that in mind as we seek to understand the writer's teachings, and we also keep in mind the general principles taught throughout Scripture, which result in a position that in view are the Hebrew People who he exhorts to draw near with a true heart in faith in Christ. He gives example of those who are clearly identified as unbelievers in Chapter Three, drawing a parallel to false professors in that day with false professors in his own day.

So to swing this back to relevance, hopefully, again I would suggest that we do not equate "salvation" in the Old Testament to salvation in Christ. That is precisely the point the writer makes often in this Epistle. Because salvation was not bestowed through keeping of the Law, their need (his Hebrew brethren) to embrace Christ and the New Covenant was priority. When he states "Go on unto perfection" he states this based on the charge levied against them in Chapter Five. They are not to lay again the foundational principles he lists, baptisms being one of those, which spoke of the external cleansing which signified an internal event in the life of the Old Testament Saint. For those that maintained the services of the Law, this was an indication to the writer that they had not embraced Christ, thus gone on to the completion Christ brought, even as John identified lack of repentance based on the works of those coming to be baptized of him.

The Law did not save, but pointed to the One Who would save. To offer up sacrifice according to the Law was to again crucify Christ in figure, which was a bold statement to the fact that faith in His death was absent.

I agree they were covered, but, in the eternal perspective there still remained the need for atonement which the sacrifices offered up by all Old Testament saints could not provide. It is the difference between the manna and the True Bread, the blood of bulls and goats and the Blood of Christ. The former was temporal and temporary, the latter is eternal.


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

David L Allen, Dean of the school of theology and Professor of preaching and director of the Center of Biblical Preaching at Southwestern Baptist Seminary, argues from a detailed analysis of the Greek Grammar, the choice of Greek words used, and the history of the interpretation of Hebrews 6:4-8 that genuine Christians are in view rather than unbelievers. On the phrase “have tasted of the heavenly gift,” he writes*,

The “heavenly gift” is a euphemism for salvation, which the readers have “tasted.” The Greek word for “tasted” is the same here as in v. 5 and is used metaphorically indicating “to eat or drink,” thus experiencing something fully, not merely superficial participation in something. There is no connotation in the word itself of tasting but not swallowing. This can be seen from the usage in Heb 2:9 where Jesus “tasted” death for everyone, meaning he experienced the full force of physical death.

On page 353 he writes,

Precisely how an unsaved person can possess a spiritual gift is a mystery left unexplained. Grudem’s treatment of Heb. 6:4-6 illustrates the tendentious nature of much of the Calvinistic exegesis of this passage.
The sheer force of the descriptive phrases militates against such an interpretation [that unsaved persons are being spoken of]. How can it be conceived that such descriptive phrases as enlightenment, experience of the heavenly gift of salvation, full sharing in the Holy Spirit, sharing in the Word of God and the powers of the coming age, do not have believers as their referent. Each of these statements finds their counterparts scattered throughout the New Testament, and when used in the same context as here, they refer to those who are genuine believers. . . . At issue is whether unsaved people can be so described by an author who thinks or knows them to be unsaved. The issue of determining their status is not the point for the author. By the descriptive language he chooses, he indicates their status as believers. Had the author wanted to convey their status as unbelievers, he could have done so. There is no direct statement that those described in Heb. 6:4-6 were unbelievers. If the author is referring to unsaved people, this is the only place in the New Testament where such language can be said to be used in this fashion.

*Allen, David L. Hebrews, Volume 35 of the New American Commentary. Nashville: B & H Publishing Group, 2010.

I would suggest that what is lacking in Mr. Allen's view is the simple fact that all unbelievers require the enlightening of the Holy Spirit, prior to salvation, in order to believe, repent, and lace faith in Christ.

The Lord taught what the Comforter would do when He came:


John 16:7-11

King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.


This establishes the fact that for the unregenerate God ministers to them that they may come to know their condition, which is that of being separated from God and awaiting impending judgment.

That ministry is how every one of us came to call on the Lord.

So when we view this...


Hebrews 6

King James Version (KJV)

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.


We need not assume these people are born again believers, but that they have received the ministry of God in their lives, and the warning is that rejection will result in loss of opportunity to be saved.

We see the rejection of Christ and the Holy Spirit in our other key text:


Hebrews 10:26-29

King James Version (KJV)

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


Those rejecting the First Covenant (Covenant of Law) were held accountable, but, those rejecting the New Covenant, Christ, and the Holy Spirit, are said to be under more severe penalty.

We see the ministry of the Comforter is different, because we know that His ministry begins after Christ's Ascension. I would suggest what is different is in fact the revelation of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, once a mystery, the Hidden Wisdom of God, but in this Age revealed to men through the Comforter's ministry.

Stephen stated to those who rejected his witness of Christ...


Acts 7:51-52

King James Version (KJV)

51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:


Now I would suggest that prior to Pentecost we have the ministry of the Holy Spirit, which is distinguished by Christ Himself from the ministry He would perform when He is sent after Christ's Ascension. Consider that all of the disciples were empowered for ministry, to preach the Kingdom Gospel, to heal, and to cast out demons, yet not one of them had received the Baptism with the Holy Spirit. Do we exclude Judas from that group? While there is no specific mention of his role, we can say he was sent out with the other eleven disciples.

Was he saved?

But more importantly, can this description...


Hebrews 6

King James Version (KJV)

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.


...also be said to apply to Judas?

I think so.

Even so Peter makes it clear that the unregenerate can have full knowledge, and reject it:


2 Peter 2:17-22

King James Version (KJV)

17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.

18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.

19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.


Again we see a parallel drawn to the Old Testament: there were false prophets aforetime, and in this Age there will be false teachers. Both here as well as in Jude it is clear these are people whose damnation has never been remedied through relationship with Christ in regeneration and indwelling, but, we see that they are said to have full knowledge.

And again we see a more severe punishment mentioned due to that knowledge. It would have been better for them not to have known, which is why the writer of Hebrews also teaches a more severe punishment for those rejecting Christ and the Holy Spirit than for those rejecting Moses' Law (the Covenant of Law): because those in the Old Testament had not had the Gospel of Christ revealed to them through the specific ministry of the Comforter.


God bless.

 

[corinth77777]

When we speak of branches being cut out, it is best to be specific as to what passage is in view. As mentioned in the previous posts, we have to take these teachings in their context.

The bottom line is that branches being cut out and cast into the fire always speaks of those who are clearly identified as unbelievers. If we try to impose salvation on the parts of unbelievers, we do an injustice to the many passages which clarify this.

In regards to baptism, the passage you mention makes it clear that in view is not an external washing, and Peter makes that clear. Ascribing salvific value to Baptism is not ordinarily a doctrinal view found among Baptists, to my knowledge (and not saying you are doing that, my friend, simply making a point concerning baptism and salvation).

There is but one Baptism which is seen in Scripture as being Salvific, and the teaching concerning this Baptism begins here:


Matthew 3:7-12

King James Version (KJV)

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.


Here, John is baptizing with water, and he contrasts his own baptism with the baptizing the One who comes after him will perform, in which two types are mentioned: with the Holy Spirit, and with fire.

It is my view John's commentary explains these two baptisms, in which we could read this as "He will Baptize with the Holy Ghost, and will gather His wheat into His Garner, and He will baptize with fire and the chaff will be burned up with unquenchable fire."

When we see the fulfillment of the Old Testament promise, as well as the teaching of the Lord Himself (see John 14-16), we can see that the Baptism with the Holy Ghost has a particular time when it begins.

That is the Day of Pentecost.


Acts 1:4-8

King James Version (KJV)

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.


Why this is significant is that we do not, as some of our brothers and sisters in Christ do, fall into the error of equating a water baptism with the Baptism with the Holy Ghost, which certain other of our brethren teach is a subsequent event after salvation.

Christ is the Baptizer, He never uses water, and salvation, if it be independent of the Baptism with the Holy Spirit...is non-existent.

Baptism holds the connotations of cleansing, identification, and association. We have been saved through the washing of regeneration (the new birth) and the renewing of the Holy Spirit (which I believe refers to, not the Holy Spirit renewing us, which is the process of the New Birth, but our restoration of relationship to God through His indwelling)...not an external washing which the writer of Hebrews tells his audience they are not to lay again foundational teachings but to progress to the spiritual realities of salvation in Christ.

John's baptism did not generate repentance, but those professing repentance came to show they had repented and the external act represented cleansing which is promised through repentance. He rebukes the Pharisees (and others) and refuses to baptize them because their works show an opposite truth to their false profession of repentance. Judgment is in view, the ax even then laid to the root of...the tree.

In Hebrews, as you stated earlier, it is collective Israel specifically in view. We keep that in mind as we seek to understand the writer's teachings, and we also keep in mind the general principles taught throughout Scripture, which result in a position that in view are the Hebrew People who he exhorts to draw near with a true heart in faith in Christ. He gives example of those who are clearly identified as unbelievers in Chapter Three, drawing a parallel to false professors in that day with false professors in his own day.

So to swing this back to relevance, hopefully, again I would suggest that we do not equate "salvation" in the Old Testament to salvation in Christ. That is precisely the point the writer makes often in this Epistle. Because salvation was not bestowed through keeping of the Law, their need (his Hebrew brethren) to embrace Christ and the New Covenant was priority. When he states "Go on unto perfection" he states this based on the charge levied against them in Chapter Five. They are not to lay again the foundational principles he lists, baptisms being one of those, which spoke of the external cleansing which signified an internal event in the life of the Old Testament Saint. For those that maintained the services of the Law, this was an indication to the writer that they had not embraced Christ, thus gone on to the completion Christ brought, even as John identified lack of repentance based on the works of those coming to be baptized of him.

The Law did not save, but pointed to the One Who would save. To offer up sacrifice according to the Law was to again crucify Christ in figure, which was a bold statement to the fact that faith in His death was absent.

I agree they were covered, but, in the eternal perspective there still remained the need for atonement which the sacrifices offered up by all Old Testament saints could not provide. It is the difference between the manna and the True Bread, the blood of bulls and goats and the Blood of Christ. The former was temporal and temporary, the latter is eternal.


God bless.

The law saved but not eternally....in the same light a branch is on a tree to produce fruit if it cannot yield it is cut off...there obviously was a baptism they were saved by....even temporary..until Christ fulfilled the law...people who did not accept Moses law died without mercy....so the people who did..the opposite must have occurred....Im pointing this out....because I believe this knowledges may help interpret
Some scriptures hard to understand..there were Jews and Gentiles....and we have to put our mindset to the cultural aspects and thinking of that day.....not deal with every scripture in view of defending the Faith of those who reject eternal security...so the baptism that save us now really wasn't the question at hand. 1 peter tells us...it is the answer...a clearing of the conscience by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. ...But to say it saves us Now...denotes the fact something saved them then....kept them temporarily. ...in light..of this they were saved..kepted until salvation was revealed........the branches...

 

[corinth77777]

When we speak of branches being cut out, it is best to be specific as to what passage is in view. As mentioned in the previous posts, we have to take these teachings in their context.

The bottom line is that branches being cut out and cast into the fire always speaks of those who are clearly identified as unbelievers. If we try to impose salvation on the parts of unbelievers, we do an injustice to the many passages which clarify this.

In regards to baptism, the passage you mention makes it clear that in view is not an external washing, and Peter makes that clear. Ascribing salvific value to Baptism is not ordinarily a doctrinal view found among Baptists, to my knowledge (and not saying you are doing that, my friend, simply making a point concerning baptism and salvation).

There is but one Baptism which is seen in Scripture as being Salvific, and the teaching concerning this Baptism begins here:


Matthew 3:7-12

King James Version (KJV)

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.


Here, John is baptizing with water, and he contrasts his own baptism with the baptizing the One who comes after him will perform, in which two types are mentioned: with the Holy Spirit, and with fire.

It is my view John's commentary explains these two baptisms, in which we could read this as "He will Baptize with the Holy Ghost, and will gather His wheat into His Garner, and He will baptize with fire and the chaff will be burned up with unquenchable fire."

When we see the fulfillment of the Old Testament promise, as well as the teaching of the Lord Himself (see John 14-16), we can see that the Baptism with the Holy Ghost has a particular time when it begins.

That is the Day of Pentecost.


Acts 1:4-8

King James Version (KJV)

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.


Why this is significant is that we do not, as some of our brothers and sisters in Christ do, fall into the error of equating a water baptism with the Baptism with the Holy Ghost, which certain other of our brethren teach is a subsequent event after salvation.

Christ is the Baptizer, He never uses water, and salvation, if it be independent of the Baptism with the Holy Spirit...is non-existent.

Baptism holds the connotations of cleansing, identification, and association. We have been saved through the washing of regeneration (the new birth) and the renewing of the Holy Spirit (which I believe refers to, not the Holy Spirit renewing us, which is the process of the New Birth, but our restoration of relationship to God through His indwelling)...not an external washing which the writer of Hebrews tells his audience they are not to lay again foundational teachings but to progress to the spiritual realities of salvation in Christ.

John's baptism did not generate repentance, but those professing repentance came to show they had repented and the external act represented cleansing which is promised through repentance. He rebukes the Pharisees (and others) and refuses to baptize them because their works show an opposite truth to their false profession of repentance. Judgment is in view, the ax even then laid to the root of...the tree.

In Hebrews, as you stated earlier, it is collective Israel specifically in view. We keep that in mind as we seek to understand the writer's teachings, and we also keep in mind the general principles taught throughout Scripture, which result in a position that in view are the Hebrew People who he exhorts to draw near with a true heart in faith in Christ. He gives example of those who are clearly identified as unbelievers in Chapter Three, drawing a parallel to false professors in that day with false professors in his own day.

So to swing this back to relevance, hopefully, again I would suggest that we do not equate "salvation" in the Old Testament to salvation in Christ. That is precisely the point the writer makes often in this Epistle. Because salvation was not bestowed through keeping of the Law, their need (his Hebrew brethren) to embrace Christ and the New Covenant was priority. When he states "Go on unto perfection" he states this based on the charge levied against them in Chapter Five. They are not to lay again the foundational principles he lists, baptisms being one of those, which spoke of the external cleansing which signified an internal event in the life of the Old Testament Saint. For those that maintained the services of the Law, this was an indication to the writer that they had not embraced Christ, thus gone on to the completion Christ brought, even as John identified lack of repentance based on the works of those coming to be baptized of him.

The Law did not save, but pointed to the One Who would save. To offer up sacrifice according to the Law was to again crucify Christ in figure, which was a bold statement to the fact that faith in His death was absent.

I agree they were covered, but, in the eternal perspective there still remained the need for atonement which the sacrifices offered up by all Old Testament saints could not provide. It is the difference between the manna and the True Bread, the blood of bulls and goats and the Blood of Christ. The former was temporal and temporary, the latter is eternal.


God bless.

The law saved but not eternally....in the same light a branch is on a tree to produce fruit if it cannot yield it is cut off...there obviously was a baptism they were saved by....even temporary..until Christ fulfilled the law...people who did no accept mosed law died without mercy....so the people who did..the opposite must have occurred....Im pointing this out....because I believe this knowledges may help interpret
Some scriptures hard to understan.....there were Jews and Gentiles....and we have to put our mindset to the cultural aspects and thinking of that day.....not deal with every scripture in view of defending the fsith of those who reject eternal security.

 

[corinth77777]

As for Baptism the question was rhetorical...to show there was a baptism under the law that kept them...until the shadow was revealed...just....as the branch..remained until it could not bear fruit..being cut off for unbelief. ....point is they were still kept...covered..saved until salvation was revealed.....my main and only point....we know they were not saved eternally for they did not abide in his teachings....the branch wasn't In a sense salvation...but rather the process of information to the protected covered saved until salvation revealed......so no those who reject.eternal security cannot use that passage....because it clearly showed they were cut off because of unbelief.....they were cut off from what led them into eternity because they rejected Christ...the faith needed to bear fruit.....again in the same light...adam and eve's sins were not Inputted unto them until they had knowledge...it was knowlede that seperated them..and knowledge accepted that will reconcil us ....if rejected..they remain under the penalty of the law of sin and death.

 

[P1LGR1M]

The law saved but not eternally....

The Law did not save.

In order for salvation to occur there was to be remission of sins and the eternal indwelling of God.

The writer's point is that the First Covenant was weak due to man's failure to keep the Covenant:


Hebrews 8:4-8

King James Version (KJV)

4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:

5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:


As mentioned before, remission of sins under the Law was temporary and temporal, just as life in the Wilderness was.

in the same light a branch is on a tree to produce fruit if it cannot yield it is cut off...

And as shown...every branch in Christ will bear fruit. Those branches not bearing fruit represent those of Israel who fail to recognize that Christ is the true source of relationship with God and fail to receive Him.

It has nothing to do with Christians becoming born again, failing to bear fruit, and being cut off. In Romans 11 it is a national basis being addressed, not an individual basis.

there obviously was a baptism they were saved by....even temporary..

So where is the Scripture to show this baptism which saves in the Old Testament?

until Christ fulfilled the law...

Which is the point the writer makes many times: the Law was incomplete, Christ brought completion.


Hebrews 7

King James Version (KJV)

11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.


25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.


Hebrews 8:12-13

King James Version (KJV)

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.


Hebrews 9:11-12

King James Version (KJV)

11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.


Hebrews 10

King James Version (KJV)

1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.



If we want to understand 10:26, we are first going to have to understand, at the very least, what the writer states in chs.7-9.

people who did not accept Moses law died without mercy....

Was that eternal death?

Or physical death?

Who put them to death?

so the people who did..the opposite must have occurred....

Where is the Scripture?

The writer of Hebrews makes it clear that no-one received remission of sins and eternal redemption through the offering of animals.

Im pointing this out....because I believe this knowledges may help interpret
Some scriptures hard to understand..

You will need to support what you are saying with a Scriptural support. Where do we see men eternally saved in the Old Testament? Where do we see "a baptism which saves" in the Old Testament?

there were Jews and Gentiles....and we have to put our mindset to the cultural aspects and thinking of that day.....

That is precisely what the writer does: he speaks to people who have been under the Law and seeks to convince them that the New Covenant is...better. The High Priest is better. The Holiest (Heaven) is better (than the earthly Holy of Holies).

And he makes it clear that the Levitical Economy could not take away sins...only Christ could, and did, take away sins.

not deal with every scripture in view of defending the Faith of those who reject eternal security...

On the contrary: this thread has in view three passages often used to teach loss of salvation. That is the underlying issue in the thread. So our task is to deal with that.

The writer at no time in the Book of Hebrews suggests that born again believers can lose their salvation, nor does he infer we are branches that can be cut out due to poor performance as Christians.

Merging and blending concepts from the Old Testament and the New is the very reason why people confuse what the writer is saying, as well as ignore much that he does say, and thus teach loss of salvation.

And everyone that does that states in that teaching that they are not trusting Christ's Sacrifice, but themselves. They reject the fact that Christ saves to the uttermost. I do not question the salvation of such teachers...just their doctrine, which is contrary to the very Gospel of Jesus Christ. They neglect to understand our Advocate makes intercession for us.

His ministry in salvation did not stop on the Cross, that was the basis for the relationship we can enjoy with God.

so the baptism that save us now really wasn't the question at hand. 1 peter tells us...it is the answer...a clearing of the conscience by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. ...

It is something that has to ne dealt with as well, because there are many who are confused as to the role of baptism, which leads to a denial of salvation through Christ...alone.

But to say it saves us Now...denotes the fact something saved them then....

So where do we see that?

Where is this baptism which "saved" in the Old Testament Economies?

kept them temporarily. ...

Abraham was kept eternally, because the promise of God is never annulled by what follows. Abraham, like many Old Testament Saints, received a good report, was declared just, but he did not receive the promises concerning the salvation that would arise through Christ. He was not made perfect until His sin was atoned for by Christ.

So we can say Abraham was, in the eternal perspective, assured of eternal relationship with God, but, that did not mean he got a pass on the penalty for sin. And according to New Covenant Promise, Abraham's sin was remedied in the Cross, whereby he received remission of sins in completion. In his life, before he died, he would have still been offering up sacrifice for his sin, which pictured Christ's Sacrifice.

in light..of this they were saved..kepted until salvation was revealed........the branches...

Many of the branches in the picture presented in Romans 11 were cut out...not kept. They were cut out, just as every person described in such terms is, because of unbelief.

And we cannot ascribe belief or salvation to those that Scripture makes clear are those that reject God and His will.

And that is precisely what those who teach loss of salvation do. They make believers and Christians out of those who have rejected the will of God. This was true of those in the Wilderness, it was true of those among Israel who rejected Christ, and it is true today.

I would ask that you provide Scripture for the doctrine you are presenting.


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

As for Baptism the question was rhetorical...to show there was a baptism under the law that kept them...

There is no baptism under the Law that "kept them."

Those who were declared just were not declared just through ritual washings, because the fact is...most performed the external performance of the Law.

I would ask you to present Scripture to validate your teaching. Where do we see a baptism which saved the Old Testament Saints?

As far as being "rhetorical," you have said that there was a baptism that saved them:

there obviously was a baptism they were saved by....even temporary..

Again it appears you are trying to teach two very opposing doctrinal positions at once.

until the shadow was revealed...

The Shadow was not revealed, the shadow was the Law itself.

The shadow only prefigured the True. The sacrifices of the Law was a picture of the Sacrifice of Christ. The Holy of Holies of the earthly Tabernacle was a picture of God's presence among men which is Heaven. The remission of sins through Levitical Service was a picture of remission of sins through Christ. The Priesthood was a picture of our Great High Priest.

In other words, the shadow was done away with. Not revealed.

just....as the branch..remained until it could not bear fruit..being cut off for unbelief. ....

Again, one is either a good tree, or an evil. One is either wheat, or chaff or tare. One is either Sheep, or Goat.

The True Vine was Christ. For Israel to abode in the True Vine, rather than the earthly picture of relationship with God, one must embrace Christ. The True Vine came unto His own and they received Him not. Thus were they cut out. Those among Gentiles that did receive Him were graft in. And just like Israel, if Gentiles fall into unbelief (which we see in America today), they too will be cut out. This is a national issue, not an individual issue. The parable of the wheat and tares deals with belief and unbelief on an individual basis. The parable of the soils does as well.

We cannot blend concepts in a manner where the context is lost.

And again, every passage dealing with eternal judgment distinguishes between believers and unbelievers, not good Christian and bad Christian.

point is they were still kept...covered..saved until salvation was revealed.....

And that is what you are missing: salvation on an eternal basis awaited the Author and Finisher (perfecter/completer) of Faith.

But we distinguish between those under the Law and those under the New Covenant. If we do not do that, then we miss what Hebrews teaches us. And those who have a penchant for works-based salvation completely ignore most of Hebrews, focusing on what they perceive as loss of salvation proof texts, when in fact what is in view is a warning not to be unbelievers in the first place. Those in the Wilderness, clearly defined as unbelievers both in the Accounts as well as by the writer, are used as an example of...

...what not to do.

It is summed up like this: "Don't be unbelievers like them, or...you will fall like them."

But the L.O.S.T. (loss of salvation teachers) corrupt the writer's teaching and make it say, "Make sure you are good enough or you will fall like them."

my main and only point....we know they were not saved eternally for they did not abide in his teachings....

But you are trying to teach just that.

You are equating the salvation bestowed by Christ under the New Testament with the "salvation" received under the Law...despite the fact that the writer makes it clear, as does Paul many times...that the Law saved no-one.

You can't have people eternally redeemed if their sin is still in need of atonement.

the branch wasn't In a sense salvation...

We have to distinguish between the "Branch" and the branch, and in view of loss of salvation theology, the latter is what is in view.

Of course the branches were not salvation, they were those that benefitted from the provision of God. God provided for Israel despite the fact that they did not keep the Covenant of Law, and despite the fact that their sin was not eternally atoned for. David was a branch, and despite being a murderer and an adulterer, because he was a man of faith, he was "saved." But, he died still in need of the Messiah Who would die in his place for his sin. Until Christ died, David's sin was not atoned for, and his penalty still weighed over him. If that sin and penalty could be overlooked and not atoned for, then Christ need not have suffered.

but rather the process of information to the protected covered saved until salvation revealed......

And when was it revealed?

Christ taught of His Death, yet this was vehemently rejected by Peter, for example.

I would suggest to you that it is not until Pentecost that the Gospel was revealed to men.


1 Corinthians 2:6-10

King James Version (KJV)

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.


The Old Testament quote spoke of, not the glory of Heaven, as many interpret this to mean, but the glory of Christ, and specifically the Gospel. The Gospel was a mystery until revealed by the Spirit, and specifically, the Comforter. Again, Christ's teachings in John 14-16 make it clear there is a distinction in the Ministry of the Comforter and the Ministry the Holy Spirit performed prior to Pentecost. Part of that ministry is the revelation of the Gospel to the world, beginning with the disciples who were Baptized with the Holy Spirit on that Day.


1 Peter 1:9-12

King James Version (KJV)

9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.


Here is the same thing in view that we see in Hebrews 5, which is the First Principles of Christ as taught and prophesied in the Old Testament. It is the Comforter that reveals to men the Gospel of Christ, and that begins, with us, when we are unregenerate. All of us have to understand the Gospel to believe, repent, and turn to Christ in faith. We all do that through the Ministry of the Comforter.

so no those who reject.eternal security cannot use that passage....because it clearly showed they were cut off because of unbelief.....

But they do. They piece-meal these passages to proof-text their doctrine, and what we have to do is bring out the fuller context in which we see that indeed, they are unbelievers, and this is the case in each of these three passages.

These are they that reject Christ, the New Covenant, and the ministry of the Comforter.

they were cut off from what led them into eternity because they rejected Christ...

Not in Hebrews. That is why the warnings are given, so they will not be cut off.

Hebrews 2

King James Version (KJV)

1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.

2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;

3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?


Notice again, in v.2, the reference to the First Covenant. Verses 3-4 refer to the New.


Hebrews 4

King James Version (KJV)

1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.


Hebrews 6

King James Version (KJV)

6 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.


Hebrews 12:25

King James Version (KJV)

25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

the faith needed to bear fruit.....again in the same light...adam and eve's sins were not Inputted unto them until they had knowledge...

Faith is not something meant to generate fruit in a salvific sense, it is how salvation is obtained. Fruit for believers is inevitable. Those that abide will generate fruit, and they will be pruned to generate more fruit.

It is the fruitless branches, who are unbelievers, that are cut out.

And the introduction of the Law is what made men specifically accountable for sin:


Romans 5:12-15

King James Version (KJV)

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

it was knowlede that seperated them..and knowledge accepted that will reconcil us ....if rejected..they remain under the penalty of the law of sin and death.

All men are born already condemned. God's mercy is seen throughout the Old Testament in that He did not exact eternal judgment, but set that day aside for future fulfillment.

How we receive Life is by receiving Christ, and not one of the Old Testament, and not even one of the disciples of Christ for that matter, believed on Christ unto eternal life until He died for them, and they were eternally brought into union with God through the eternal indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

That was but a promise to the Old Testaments, who did not, according to Hebrews, receive the promises.

Christ states when the promise would be fulfilled here:


Acts 1

King James Version (KJV)

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.


Galatians 3:13-14

King James Version (KJV)

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.



Ephesians 1:13

King James Version (KJV)

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,



The three passages of the OP are greatly misunderstood, which can be remedied simply by study of the Book as a whole.

My suggestion is that repeated readings of chs.7-10 will clarify Hebrews 10:26. When we understand that in view is an appeal of a Jew to his Hebrews brethren to embrace Christ and the New Covenant, then the numerous references to the New Covenant, as contrasted with the First (Covenant of Law)...begin to make sense.


God bless.

 

[corinth77777]

I cant read all that.....right now but a short response...since I'm using my phone...as long as people don't die spiritually then they are eternally saved...I stand on all that i've said....as an example until someone can prove it wrong...peoples names are said to be written inthe book...
And their names can be blotted out......which to me is similar to the example of the branch and being cut off for unbelief....
With that said when were the faithful jews ever Hell bound if they
Were kept by the law?...

 

[P1LGR1M]

I cant read all that.....right now but a short response...since I'm using my phone...

I understand completely. Just went out of town and tried to post using a tablet and my phone and it's like pulling teeth, lol.

as long as people don't die spiritually then they are eternally saved...

And that is what I would draw your attention to: people are born spiritually dead already.

The Life Christ came to give began...when He came. He teaches in John 6 that if one does not eat of His flesh and drink of His blood (or in other words place faith in His death)...they have no life.

While a man has a spirit, that is not the same as having the Spirit. This is the distinction between the New Covenant and the Covenants that precede it. Those Covenants did not bestow eternal life, only Christ, when He came, made that Gift available to men.

He said...


Matthew 26:27-28

King James Version (KJV)

27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;

28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.


...and throughout Hebrews we see the New Covenant advocated and affirmed. That is what the L.O.S.T. (loss of salvation teachers) leave out of the equation when they corrupt these passages.

As I said early on, we cannot impose the realization of the promises of God on those who had only the promise of those realities. The reality of complete remission of sins, through the death of Christ, of necessity awaited that day when He would go to the Cross and die in the place of sinful man.

I stand on all that i've said....as an example until someone can prove it wrong...

You have proven nothing that is relevant to salvation or the Book of Hebrews.

You have instead created a burden for yourself of supporting what you have said, such as there being a baptism which saved in the Old Testament, for example. You have yet to show that branches cut off speaks of born again believers. You have yet to show how, in contradiction to many passages in Scripture...the Law saved anyone.

peoples names are said to be written inthe book...
And their names can be blotted out......

David prayed his enemies be blotted out:


Psalm 69:26-28

King James Version (KJV)

26 For they persecute him whom thou hast smitten; and they talk to the grief of those whom thou hast wounded.

27 Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness.

28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.


Were these enemies, which prefigure the enemies of Christ...born again believers?

Yet they are said to be in the Book of Life. We could make this a different Book, but there is only one Book which will have names blotted from.

I would suggest to you that everyone is written in the Book of Life, and dependent upon their response to the revelation of God, regardless of what Age that fell in, and the revelation provided to them in that time. God is just and will reveal Himself to every man and woman, and He does this through Creation, the internal witness, and direct revelation, such as found in His Word (which includes prophesying which is recorded). The one that rejects that revelation, no matter what revelation provided...will be blotted out.

which to me is similar to the example of the branch and being cut off for unbelief....

It a merging of concepts. We have to address every passage speaking of being cut off in it's context. As I have said several times, these passages clearly define believers from unbelievers.

With that said when were the faithful jews ever Hell bound if they
Were kept by the law?...

First, Hell, properly, is the Lake of Fire. Secondly, we understand that Hades, being translated "Hell" in Luke 17 and numerous passages, was where Christ taught that both just and unjust went at physical death. If you study Hebrews 9-10 you will see that what the writer teaches, which complements both the traditional view of life after death in that Age as well as Christ's own teaching, is that the way into the Holiest, which is Heaven itself...was not open to man prior to Christ preparing the way for us. This He did through His death, His body being likened to the veil that separated men from God. The earthly Tabernacle and earthly Priest could only enter into the shadow, the figure, the parable of the presence of God, but could not enter into His presence due to his sin.

That is why the Bible can speak of men standing before God (temporally) and no man being able to come into God's presence. When men did come into His presence...it was here, not in Heaven.

So when we understand Hebrews, we begin to see the objections of the works-based salvationists lose their reasonableness.

You are imposing eternal life on those that did not have eternal life, because they were not yet brought into the eternal relationship promised by God in the Old Testament. They were "saved" in the sense that their eternal destiny was not the Lake of Fire, but they still needed to be brought into relationship with God through union which was made available through Christ.

Consider:

John 3:13-15

King James Version (KJV)

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.


We cannot ignore the Lord's teaching concerning salvation, and one of those teachings is that He came that He might give life unto men.



John 6

King James Version (KJV)

27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.


32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.

33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.



45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

48 I am that bread of life.

49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.


53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.



The Lord makes it clear that those who believe on Him receive Eternal Life. His flesh and blood is a reference to the Cross. He speaks of those taught of God, which is the promise of the New Covenant. Those who do not believe...have no life.

He says the same thing here:


John 3:13-18

King James Version (KJV)

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


Eternal Life was not bestowed upon men until the One they were to believe in came. He came to give life that was not available before. And while we understand that everyone will live somewhere forever, again we do not confuse a man having a spirit which is endless with a man having spiritual life which is eternal. No man believed on Christ's flesh and blood prior to His being lifted up. Not even the disciples "abided" in Him, but forsook Him, Peter going so far as to deny even knowing Him.

But Peter cannot be blamed, because Peter had not yet had the Gospel of Christ revealed to Him. He would not, until the Comforter came, understand and properly place the teachings of Christ in a proper context and thus understand.

Peter has an excuse, but we...do not.

Thus the writer of Hebrews, in ch.5, rebukes his audience because among them were those that did not even understand the ABCs spoken of Christ in the Old Testament, much less those things which the writer states are better, and the better things promised of God. When we impose the realization of the promise before it was bestowed, we end up with a very confusing Bible.

But, when we place these things in a proper context, the mystery becomes understood, which is why the Lord sent the Comforter.

And I will have to withdraw from further discussion until such time when you address what has already been provided. There is no sense trying to say we are trying to understand the passages the OP presents when we are doing everything but looking at those passages. Instead f addressing these passages you have introduced baptism, cutting off of branches, and the Book of Life, for example, but not addressed the passages themselves.

The Book of Hebrews, in my humble opinion, unlocks the New Testament by drawing the contrasts between the Two Covenants. Study of this Book will help us understand, probably better than any other Book, why the salvation of those who are sanctified by the Blood of Christ is secure. When we understand fully that not even the great people of faith in the Old Testament attained to a righteousness by which they could enter into the presence of God, but that only Christ could do that, then we understand that an attempt to be righteous apart from Christ, that is, in our own power, whether to attain or to maintain salvation...is futile.

We will look at this once again...

as long as people don't die spiritually then they are eternally saved...

...because I see it as the heart of error in regards to Eternal Redemption: people are already spiritually dead when they are born. That is what separates man from God...that condition. They can only have Eternal Life, thus Eternal Salvation, by being brought into relationship through the indwelling of He Who is Eternal. Eternal Life is not a product, or a substance...poured into man. Eternal Life is the presence of the Eternal God, whereby the earthly tabernacle yields to the New Covenant Temple, which is those born again.

Abraham did not receive eternal life, but because of his faith in God his death, that death that no sacrifice he ever offered could appease, the penalty of sin was not exacted. His penalty was taken upon by Christ Himself, Who also took upon Himself your sin, and my sin. That debt is once and for all paid, and as God promised, will no more be remembered. The sin we commit after we are brought into relationship with him will be judged, but, just as physical death was exacted upon the Old Testament Saint, even so for us, if we fall into disobedience, we too may suffer that same physical death. But eternally speaking, we have been, in regards to sin, been made complete. The Old Testament Saints were not, until Christ died for them, made perfect in regards to remission of sin.

So instead of bouncing from one issue or concept to another, I would ask that you go back and begin addressing the issues already raised. Until you do that, as I said, I will withdraw from discussion with you, because the OP has in view the specific passages listed, and if we want to understand those in truth, then it is the Book of Hebrews we must deal with.


God bless.