Hebrews 10:26 / 6:4-6 / 12:14-17

[Anihilus]

Is it possible to be an apostate and still want Christ?

This question, and other ones similar to it, have been plaguing my mind and have been a source of much agony.

I know, for almost certain, that right now, I am unconverted. The issue I would like to disscuse here is not whether I am or am not, but what these verses mean and how it pertains to the question.

Is apostasy and what is described in these verses a state that somebody can be in unwillingly?

By that I mean, is it possible to be an apostate, be under the sworn wrath of God, realize it, and seek mercy and it not be found? Or is it possible to be an apostate and not know it and seek mecry your whole life and it not be found?

In short, is there anyway to know you are an apostate or not? How do you know if you have gone over the line, and have sinned away your day of grace.

I know most of the people on this board are reformed, if not all. I am familiar with the doctrines of grace and I understand that all who are saved are saved at the time the effectual call is given.

My questions do not pertan to this, but to those, who, in coming to Christ, have the common workings of the spirit, and yet, never come to saving faith in Him. How can you tell if you are of that group or not?

I suppose the obvious answer will be that "you will eventually find out".

I guess my main question is, how can you tell if you are an apostate that has been given up by the spirit?

If it helps, I do have Scrupulosity. I know my mind is darkened to the meaning of scripture in this unconverted state of mine and the thought of this has been constantly jabbing me in the heart. These verses, along with Deuteronomy 29, and proverbs 2 have me worried.

Anyways, I would just like to see some of your thoughts on this issue.

 

[TimRout]

I guess my main question is, how can you tell if you are an apostate that has been given up by the spirit?

An "apostate" is, by definition, a person who once asserted faith in Christ, and now denies Christ. No truly saved person would do this [Jn. 10:27]. Therefore, if you are not following Christ, I would implore you to repent and believe the good news [Mk. 1:15]. If you have done so already, then I would encourage you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called [Eph. 4:1].

 

[student ad x]

My questions do not pertan to this, but to those, who, in coming to Christ, have the common workings of the spirit, and yet, never come to saving faith in Him. How can you tell if you are of that group or not?

..... "All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out." John 6:37 NAS

 

[jarrettcpr]

Is it possible to be an apostate and still want Christ?

I don't believe that to be true. Wouldn't that be an oxymoron?

Is apostasy and what is described in these verses a state that somebody can be in unwillingly?

By that I mean, is it possible to be an apostate, be under the sworn wrath of God, realize it, and seek mercy and it not be found? Or is it possible to be an apostate and not know it and seek mecry your whole life and it not be found?

That is not true. For it that were true God would be a liar.

My friend if you believe Jesus (God in the flesh) died for your sins, you are no longer under condemnation. Meaning you are forgiven and mercy and Jesus' righteousness has been imparted to you.

"Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God — children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God. (John 1:12-13)

Surly, you know one of the first Bible verses that was taught to you...

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son" (John 3:16-18)

In short, is there anyway to know you are an apostate or not? How do you know if you have gone over the line, and have sinned away your day of grace.

I'll let someone better qualified answer this one. I do know going back to the Law can make someone fall from grace.

"You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace." (Galatians 5:4)

My questions do not pertan to this, but to those, who, in coming to Christ, have the common workings of the spirit, and yet, never come to saving faith in Him. How can you tell if you are of that group or not?

I suppose the obvious answer will be that "you will eventually find out".

I guess my main question is, how can you tell if you are an apostate that has been given up by the spirit?

If it helps, I do have Scrupulosity. I know my mind is darkened to the meaning of scripture in this unconverted state of mine and the thought of this has been constantly jabbing me in the heart. These verses, along with Deuteronomy 29, and proverbs 2 have me worried.

Anyways, I would just like to see some of your thoughts on this issue.

You know you are saved firstly by believing Jesus died for you, and by the good fruit you produce.

"Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes, nor figs from thistles, are they? Even so, every good tree bears good fruit; but the bad tree bears bad fruit." (Matthew 7:15-17)

"You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend. You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead." (James 2:20-26

The above verses isn't about legalism, but simply doing what is right. Even something as small has holding a door for someone or when someone drops something helping pick it up for them is a good deed, and a good fruit.

Hope this helps

 

[JohnDB]

Look....I ain't reformed....not in the least fashion.

Obviously you know something of those grace doctrines...for you speak a theological language.

But

In answer to your op

Ever hear of the story of the Prodigal son?
Combine that with the story of Esau...

Leadership might not be your thing inside Christian circles...and there may come a day you wish that you had that...but.

continually work out your salvation in fear and trembling.

God is good....God is never bad because God is infinately busy being infinately good.
do not greive the Holy Spirit for bad things can happen to you. When you leave God's protective fold...there is a lot of danger out there.

 

[RobertZ]

Those passages in Hebrews do not refer to someone who is actually saved but rather to someone who was on the brink of salvation and then turned away from the light.

I have done a ton of in depth studying with these scriptures and I can assure you that they are not speaking about someone who is truly saved, they are speaking about someone who has been enlightened by the Holy Ghost but has yet to receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

I have known of people who were on the brink of salvation and then turned away from it, those people have never shown any desire to come back to God and John McCarther states that its because God has given them all the light and revelation that he can give to them and therefore since they will not accept him on the greatest amount of light given then if they turn away they are in danger of falling completely away forever.



Now, im in an odd situation......10yrs ago in a church service I can remember the Holy Spirit dealing with me, I wanted to get up to the front of the church so bad that I thought I was going to die, unfortunately I was embarressed that I would make a scene out of myself and I was worried what everyone would think of me. (I find out later that this is actually called pride).

So long story short I walked away uncoverted. For the next few months I was bothered by this and wanted to go back to speak with the pastor of that church but once again pride got in the way. Soon after that the concernes left me and I dived into alchohole and inappropriate contentograhy like never before, this goes on for 10 long years and when I say I was addicted to inappropriate content I mean it, I looked at it for hours a day every day of the week.

A few months ago I had a scare about the rapture and I realized I had never gotten saved, to my horror I have been trying for nearly a year now to come back to God and its not happening. The more I read the scripture the more condmened I get and the more I can sense God telling me that I had my chance because I was once enlightened and then walked away.

I find my heart getting harder and harder and harder almost like its being hardened against my own ability to stop it. So yes, if your on the brink of salvation do not walk away from it unconverted because later in life you might find it impossible to return.

 

[JohnDB]

I am coming back into this thread for a couple of reasons...one is that I really didn't answer your question as completely as I could have and the fact that you aren't alone in your questions.

There is the parable of the soils that is told in Matthew 13.
What kind of soil are you? the one that produces a crop of sixty fold?...or the one that has been choked out by weeds?

Many people wish to join the Christian "Club" but can't find a place for themselves in it. They know that they can hang out and act right...but real membership is still missing somehow. It isn't in anything anybody says or does to you...it is a feeling really deep inside of you that you simply can't place. You join in all the activities and aren't a social shmuck...but something is still missing.

What that feeling is all about is that you have joined a church and haven't paid your membership dues. Oh...you might be a faithful tither too...but that isn't the price of admission. There isn't one real Christian who hasn't given up something that was really meaningful to them for Christ. Those things seemed really important to them as well at the time. But God asked for them...and so we gave them...completely.

The result of giving God more authority in our lives has been a giving back to us a fuller measure than what we gave Him. And it became a war of giving and trying to out give God. (as if). The net result has been that there isn't a one of us who is a real, fruit-producing Christian who wouldn't hesitate for a moment to give anything to God. We would rather suffer all kinds of humilation than to hurt the cause of Christ in a heartbeat...and suffering for Christ is considered quite an honor by us. We gather to further the cause of Christ...not to socialize so much.

That is the cost of membership in the Christian "club" as it were. It never is about us...it may seem that way at times...but that is the goats leading things again. (they never herd as well as sheep do) Christ is the reason for everything that we do...period. When you can honestly say that and there is verifiable evidense of that in both your heart and in the fruits you produce...you will be a member regardless of what anyone else says or does...maybe not so much of a church...but of the Kingdom...and membership there is much much more important than any membership here on this planet.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

I guess my main question is, how can you tell if you are an apostate that has been given up by the spirit?

Anihilus,

I believe that a good place to start is getting a good handle on the word apostate. An apostate is a person who has committed apostasy. The word apostasy came into the English language in the 14th century from the Late Latin word apostasia, which came into Latin from the Greek word aphistasthai, a compound word from apo, with the root meaning of off, away from, and histasthai meaning to stand. This word is found in the New Testament in the following places:

Acts 21:21 21. and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. (NASB, 1995)

2 Thess. 2:3. Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, (NASB, 1995)

Therefore an apostate is someone who had taken a stand for Christ, a Christian, but one who is now standing away from Christ, having forsaken Him. Some people, including the large majority of Baptists but the minority of Christians, believe that it is impossible for a Christian to forsake Christ and thus lose his salvation. This concept, however, is relatively new to the Christian faith, first being introduced in the 16th century having been conceived as a consequence of a new and incorrect understanding of the sovereignty of God. Indeed, many of the Ante-Nicene Church Fathers explicitly wrote of Christians who committed apostasy and lost their salvation because it. And the Scriptures, in many places, explicitly say that it is possible in a manner so very clearly that they were never interpreted to say otherwise until the 16th century. For an example, let us look at one of the three Scriptures in the title of your post,

Heb. 6:4. For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5. and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6. and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
7. For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;
8. but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.
9. But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way. (NASB, 1995)

Up until the 16th century this passage was universally interpreted as teaching that a Christian could lose his salvation, and the large majority of Bible scholars today still hold to that position. Indeed, this passage of Scripture gives us the most detailed description of what it means to be saved that we find anywhere in the Bible, and the end of these saved persons who subsequently fall away from the Christian faith is eternal damnation in the fires of hell.

The author of the Epistle to the Hebrews wrote his Epistle using the terminology and phraseology of the very early Church. Therefore, in order to accurately interpret the Epistle to the Hebrews it is essential to have a solid background in the writings of the very early Church and the terminology and phraseology that they used.

The phrase in verse 4, “those who have once been enlightened,” is a reference to water baptism. Indeed, Justin Martyr (died in 165 A.D.) wrote that the term “enlightenment” was used as a synonym for water baptism of converts to Christianity and he uses the term “the enlightened one” for a person who has been baptized. And the Peshitta, an ancient Syriac translation of the Greek New Testament, renders (when translated into English) the phrase in verse 4, “who have gone down into baptism.”

The phrase in verse 4, “have tasted of the heavenly gift,” was variously interpreted during the first 1500 years, but it was ALWAYS interpreted as describing a born-again Christian. Some, for example, saw it to be a reference to the Eucharist; others saw it to be a reference to the teaching of Christ in John 6:31-58. Still others saw it to be a reference to the forgiveness of sins; others saw it to be a reference to the blessings conferred upon the Christian believer.

The phrase in verse 4, “and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,” is an obvious reference to receiving the Holy Spirit, something that, in the New Testament, happens EXCLUSIVELY to those who have been saved.

The phrase in verse 5, “and have tasted the good word of God,” is a clear reference to the Christian’s experience of hearing the word of God preached and taught and the consequential experience of it in his life as a believer.

The phrase in verse 5, “and the powers of the age to come,” is a reference to the miracles that were performed by the Apostles and other Christians as a foreshadowing of the kingdom to come, and to the other blessings that Christians experience now in part but shall experience in their fullness in the future kingdom.

The phrase in verse 6, “and then have fallen away,” can be properly interpreted only to be speaking of falling from grace and the Christian faith, something that can NOT happen until AFTER a person is saved.

The phrases in verse 6, “it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame,” tell us of the absolutely horrendous consequence of a Christian falling from grace, making the death of Christ on the cross for his sins to be of no effect. This passage expressly speaks of a person who has heard the Gospel, believed it, was saved and baptized, repented of his sins, and enjoyed the blessing of being a born-again Christian—but who subsequently chose to reject Christ and return to his sins. And the fate of such a person could not possibly be any worse—it is “impossible to renew them again to repentance.” Most obviously it is not impossible to renew an unsaved person to repentance if they have repented but not been born again and then fall back into sin. Therefore the person spoken of has necessarily been born again but has fallen away from the Christian faith. And the born-again Christian who, of his own free will, chooses to reject the Christ who redeemed him is beyond redemption and damned to the fires of hell for eternity.

Verses 7 & 8 are an analogy used to support the author’s statements. Just as the ground which once brought forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled received a blessing from God, and the ground that now yields thorns and thistles is worthless and ends up being burned, so the Christian which once brought forth good fruit unto God but who now brings forth bad fruit ends up being burned in the fires of hell.

Verse 9 tells us that the author has been warning his Christian readers about things that do not accompany salvation, things that happen to Christians who fall away from the faith. Nonetheless, he is reassuring them that that he does not expect them to fall away, as some others had done, but is convinced of better things concerning them, and things that, in their case, accompany salvation, even though he felt that he needed to warn them of the horrendous consequences of apostasy from the Christian faith.


But, you ask, “how can you tell if you are an apostate that has been given up by the spirit?” Very carefully and prayerfully read the passage in Hebrews quoted above and ask God to help you know if you are one of the persons described in that passage. Only He knows for certain.

 

[Ariellamb]

Is it possible to be an apostate and still want Christ?

Many who think they are Apostate are not IMHO

IMHO your Q is very hard to answer,but I would say most times no, sometimes yes.

Have spent time with ppl who have also felt they were up the stream without a paddle as you do.
The one clear clue to me is 'if someone really wants Christ He can be found of them'
but it might take some time.
A real yearning for Jesus again and a turning up front from sin before receiving anything from Him will cause Him to know you WANT to receive Him.
No this is not works,but showing heart Intent.
This person will still lay in bed and know if they die in their sleep they will be going to hell,they keep saying to Jesus, Only You can rescue me, Only You can help me,I'm waiting on You to Reach down and pick me up,my faith up, my miserable life up,without You I am lost.
This has worked for someone I know in your position,but it took a while.
When Jesus came upon them He came upon them in a big way & they are still walking with Him today many yrs later.

 

[GrampaJeff]

Anihilus, Do you think an apostate would even be concerned about this issue if he were a true apostate? Would the conscience be seared as in 1Ti. 4:1-2?
These passages tell me that there would be no real concern for a true apostate.

 

[RobertZ]

Anihilus, Do you think an apostate would even be concerned about this issue if he were a true apostate? Would the conscience be seared as in 1Ti. 4:1-2?
These passages tell me that there would be no real concern for a true apostate.

What if its just the fear of going to hell? could an apostate still be concerned about that? or even a reprobate fear hell?

 

[Ariellamb]

'Is it possible to be an apostate, be under the sworn wrath of God, realize it, and seek mercy and it not be found? Or is it possible to be an apostate and not know it and seek me cry your whole life and it not be found?'

Reading Joshua chapter 24 may throw some light on this subject.

14 "Now fear the LORD and serve him with all faithfulness. Throw away the gods your forefathers worshiped beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the LORD. 15 But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD."
whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD."

We do the choosing....Although I am a Calvinist I suppose,yet I still believe when on the last day when we shall all stand b4 God at the judgement,that not one of us will say to God You Never Chose me.

We do the Choosing and can never throw at God,now or later,what about Heb 6 or chapter 10.

If we are in a mind even thinking to make a choice, then GRACE Enables that to be open to us.

How come? Because Today is The Day of Grace.......If we WANT to take it

Then leave all the doubts with God to sort out AFTER You have asked Him to Save you.

 

[kc843]

We do the choosing....Although I am a Calvinist I suppose,yet I still believe when on the last day when we shall all stand b4 God at the judgement,that not one of us will say to God You Never Chose me.

We do the Choosing and can never throw at God,now or later,what about Heb 6 or chapter 10.

If we are in a mind even thinking to make a choice, then GRACE Enables that to be open to us.

How come? Because Today is The Day of Grace.......If we WANT to take it

Then leave all the doubts with God to sort out AFTER You have asked Him to Save you.[/QUOTE]




Well said Ariellamb. I'm a Calvinist too but your comments are right on. Makes me think of Rom 9 where it says a vessel of wrath has no right to say "who am I to resist his will?"

A few months ago, I had a terrifying experience in my soul where it was like the conversation of those who say "Lord Lord" and God responds "I never knew you". As it unfolded, I was never once able to respond to God in any manner to justify myself or put the onus on Him. He's given me many mercies and light and if we don't respond we are responsible.

Would you guys pray for me? I too have feared that I am unconverted despite thinking i was actually saved. I know I need repentance and faith, and I realize they're gifts from God, and I know up till now I have not fully and truly repented of my sins. Could you pray God would grant me the grace to do so?

Thanks for your comments. They were very helpful.

And RobertZ, if you see this, could you contact me? I understand what you're saying and am in a similar spot for similar reasons. Hope to hear from you.

 

[preacher4truth]

Is it possible to be an apostate and still want Christ?

This question, and other ones similar to it, have been plaguing my mind and have been a source of much agony.

I know, for almost certain, that right now, I am unconverted. The issue I would like to disscuse here is not whether I am or am not, but what these verses mean and how it pertains to the question.

Is apostasy and what is described in these verses a state that somebody can be in unwillingly?

By that I mean, is it possible to be an apostate, be under the sworn wrath of God, realize it, and seek mercy and it not be found? Or is it possible to be an apostate and not know it and seek mecry your whole life and it not be found?

In short, is there anyway to know you are an apostate or not? How do you know if you have gone over the line, and have sinned away your day of grace.

I know most of the people on this board are reformed, if not all. I am familiar with the doctrines of grace and I understand that all who are saved are saved at the time the effectual call is given.

My questions do not pertan to this, but to those, who, in coming to Christ, have the common workings of the spirit, and yet, never come to saving faith in Him. How can you tell if you are of that group or not?

I suppose the obvious answer will be that "you will eventually find out".

I guess my main question is, how can you tell if you are an apostate that has been given up by the spirit?

If it helps, I do have Scrupulosity. I know my mind is darkened to the meaning of scripture in this unconverted state of mine and the thought of this has been constantly jabbing me in the heart. These verses, along with Deuteronomy 29, and proverbs 2 have me worried.

Anyways, I would just like to see some of your thoughts on this issue.

Hello Anihilus,

Your troubles remind me of 'Grace Abounding to the Chief of Sinners'. No apostate worries himself over his apostatizing. That you are troubled 'if' it is possible is direct evidence that you are in fact not an apostate. Jesus will never let you go -- John 10:28. The fact you seek mercy is comforting as this shows you're being drawn to Him unto justification -- Luke 18:13.

God bless.

 

[98cwitr]

Is it possible to be an apostate and still want Christ?

This question, and other ones similar to it, have been plaguing my mind and have been a source of much agony.

I know, for almost certain, that right now, I am unconverted. The issue I would like to disscuse here is not whether I am or am not, but what these verses mean and how it pertains to the question.

Is apostasy and what is described in these verses a state that somebody can be in unwillingly?

By that I mean, is it possible to be an apostate, be under the sworn wrath of God, realize it, and seek mercy and it not be found? Or is it possible to be an apostate and not know it and seek mercy your whole life and it not be found?

In short, is there anyway to know you are an apostate or not? How do you know if you have gone over the line, and have sinned away your day of grace.

I know most of the people on this board are reformed, if not all. I am familiar with the doctrines of grace and I understand that all who are saved are saved at the time the effectual call is given.

My questions do not pertan to this, but to those, who, in coming to Christ, have the common workings of the spirit, and yet, never come to saving faith in Him. How can you tell if you are of that group or not?

I suppose the obvious answer will be that "you will eventually find out".

I guess my main question is, how can you tell if you are an apostate that has been given up by the spirit?

If it helps, I do have Scrupulosity. I know my mind is darkened to the meaning of scripture in this unconverted state of mine and the thought of this has been constantly jabbing me in the heart. These verses, along with Deuteronomy 29, and proverbs 2 have me worried.

Anyways, I would just like to see some of your thoughts on this issue.

I have asked these very things myself...for a long time...and found my answers in these verses:


John 3

5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You[c] must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”[d]

Galatians 5:22-24

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

Romans 9

6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring. 9 For this was how the promise was stated: “At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son.”[c]

10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”[d] 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”[e]

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”[f]
16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[g] 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

ask yourself: What do you want from Christ specifically, and is your heart willing to do His Will?

 

[least]

For Anihilus, RobertZ, kc843, and all who struggle with this issue,

“Gracious Father, we thank you that you have chosen before the foundation of the world to save sinners through your Son, Jesus Christ. In your word, you have promised the gift of eternal life for all who believe. You have said, “Whoever will call upon the name of the Lord will be saved.” God, we thank you because we know you do not lie, and we have your promises “as a sure and steadfast anchor of the soul.”

“Father, we ourselves are not so trustworthy! Although we often neglect you and disobey your word—even as your children—you are always faithful to your word. Lord, this is for your glory, and we are only beneficiaries of your grace. Thank you, Father, because while we were sinners, Christ died for us. And as such, if he did so much for us through his death while we were your enemies, how much the more will he do for us who are now your children!

“Father, I pray for Anihilus, RobertZ, and kc843, because they are in a deep and bitter struggle. It may be that they have never believed your promises and they are now under conviction. If that is the case, Lord, I pray that you would open their eyes to great offer you have set before them. Perhaps, Lord, they have believed, but have then strayed from you. Help them to know, Lord, that while they may venture away from the truth, you will not lose any that belong to you. Wherever they are in relation to you, I ask that you carry on the great work you have begun in their lives and that they will understand if they confess their sins, you are faithful and just to forgive them and to cleanse them from all unrighteousness. May we all be quick to seek your grace and repent when we sin!

“Thank you, Master, for helping us in our time of need! To you alone belong the kingdom and the power and the glory, forever, Amen.”

Dear friends, let me encourage you all to plunge yourselves into the overwhelming deepness of the Scriptures which speak of the gospel of Christ, and the salvation that is provided through him. Do not let yourselves be drowned by the shallow waters of a few hard (often misunderstood) passages. Christ came that you may have abundant life. Therefore, my friends, live abundantly in his care

 

[98cwitr]

ah RobertZ...I miss that guy He's been gone a while. Yall do realize this is a 5 YEAR old thread right?

I dont think we do the choosing though: John 15:16

 

[Bluelion]

Is it possible to be an apostate and still want Christ?

This question, and other ones similar to it, have been plaguing my mind and have been a source of much agony.

I know, for almost certain, that right now, I am unconverted. The issue I would like to disscuse here is not whether I am or am not, but what these verses mean and how it pertains to the question.

Is apostasy and what is described in these verses a state that somebody can be in unwillingly?

By that I mean, is it possible to be an apostate, be under the sworn wrath of God, realize it, and seek mercy and it not be found? Or is it possible to be an apostate and not know it and seek mecry your whole life and it not be found?

In short, is there anyway to know you are an apostate or not? How do you know if you have gone over the line, and have sinned away your day of grace.

I know most of the people on this board are reformed, if not all. I am familiar with the doctrines of grace and I understand that all who are saved are saved at the time the effectual call is given.

My questions do not pertan to this, but to those, who, in coming to Christ, have the common workings of the spirit, and yet, never come to saving faith in Him. How can you tell if you are of that group or not?

I suppose the obvious answer will be that "you will eventually find out".

I guess my main question is, how can you tell if you are an apostate that has been given up by the spirit?

If it helps, I do have Scrupulosity. I know my mind is darkened to the meaning of scripture in this unconverted state of mine and the thought of this has been constantly jabbing me in the heart. These verses, along with Deuteronomy 29, and proverbs 2 have me worried.

Anyways, I would just like to see some of your thoughts on this issue.

Are you asking if your saved or not? or are you asking if your like judas tasting of the fruit of heaven but not eating of it, just kind of sticking your tongue out to see if its good?

If you want to know if your saved simple question in your heart do you love God, you can not love God with out Jesus in your heart. Don't lie to your self be honest only you and God know the answer.

If your asking if your tasting the fruit as judas, the fact you asked shows already you are not like judas.

If you hunger and thirst for God you will find Him, if not you will be in the desert until you do. But some never realize where they are, so they never hunger or thirst for God until its to late when they learn what they have been drinking is not water but sand, and what they have been eating is not fruit but the barbs of a cactus.

 

[Bluelion]

ah RobertZ...I miss that guy He's been gone a while. Yall do realize this is a 5 YEAR old thread right?

I dont think we do the choosing though: John 15:16

well now i do who brought this thread up?

 

[corinth77777]

Is it possible to be an apostate and still want Christ?

This question, and other ones similar to it, have been plaguing my mind and have been a source of much agony.

I know, for almost certain, that right now, I am unconverted. The issue I would like to disscuse here is not whether I am or am not, but what these verses mean and how it pertains to the question.

Is apostasy and what is described in these verses a state that somebody can be in unwillingly?

By that I mean, is it possible to be an apostate, be under the sworn wrath of God, realize it, and seek mercy and it not be found? Or is it possible to be an apostate and not know it and seek mecry your whole life and it not be found?

In short, is there anyway to know you are an apostate or not? How do you know if you have gone over the line, and have sinned away your day of grace.

I know most of the people on this board are reformed, if not all. I am familiar with the doctrines of grace and I understand that all who are saved are saved at the time the effectual call is given.

My questions do not pertan to this, but to those, who, in coming to Christ, have the common workings of the spirit, and yet, never come to saving faith in Him. How can you tell if you are of that group or not?

I suppose the obvious answer will be that "you will eventually find out".

I guess my main question is, how can you tell if you are an apostate that has been given up by the spirit?

If it helps, I do have Scrupulosity. I know my mind is darkened to the meaning of scripture in this unconverted state of mine and the thought of this has been constantly jabbing me in the heart. These verses, along with Deuteronomy 29, and proverbs 2 have me worried.

Anyways, I would just like to see some of your thoughts on this issue.

Falling away...as from what I read awhile ago...................is to fall away from
the faith...but....We fall away many times.....through our unbelief, through not adhering to the gospel for forgiveness. I think I have fallen from the faith many times, but I know I can get back up again. For anything that is NOT of faith is sin. And the Law is not of FAITH...so where do you think we go back to
in our own thinking when we have sinned? we asked the question are we SAVED? Why because we have sinned...I believe there is no difference between the Law of sin and death compared to anything that comes from the
flesh...So rather Jew or Gentile we all fall under sin. With that said I believe to fall away, is to fall away from BELIEF IN THE GOSPEL for salvation/ and turning to anything else for salvation. IT was stated that : we are saved if we HOLD TO THE GOSPEL...Belief in CHRIST, since you know who to call to then yes you can call out even in your sins.


For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


IN my opinion Wilful sin presented here, is rejecting Salvation in Christ.
Why? Because the definition is stated in verse 29....as in, counting the blood of the covenant, unholy.

Ask yourself in this context how one wilfully sins....

because one REMAINS under the LAW where there is NO FORGIVENESS OF SIN. You are constantly in sin where there is no forgiveness..........There is no blood of the animals that will cover you, because the mystery has been made known, that Christ is the end of the law for all those who believe. For those who choose not to believe they are held under the penalty of the law.

So Wilful sin is REJECTING CHRIST


Duet.25Then men shall say, Because they have forsaken the covenant of the Lord God of their fathers, which he made with them when he brought them forth out of the land of Egypt: 26For they went and served other gods, and worshipped them, gods whom they knew not, and whom he had not given unto them:




27And the anger of the Lord was kindled against this land, to bring upon it all the curses that are written in this book: 28And the Lord rooted them out of their land in anger, and in wrath, and in great indignation, and cast them into another land, as it is this day. 29The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

This is good example..but remember these folks are under covenant

10When wisdom entereth into thine heart, and knowledge is pleasant unto thy soul; 11Discretion shall preserve thee, understanding shall keep thee: 12To deliver thee from the way of the evil man, from the man that speaketh froward things; 13Who leave the paths of uprightness, to walk in the ways of darkness; 14Who rejoice to do evil, and delight in the frowardness of the wicked; 15Whose ways are crooked, and they froward in their paths: 16To deliver thee from the strange woman, even from the stranger which flattereth with her words; 17Which forsaketh the guide of her youth, and forgetteth the covenant of her God. 18For her house inclineth unto death, and her paths unto the dead. 19None that go unto her return again, neither take they hold of the paths of life. 20That thou mayest walk in the way of good men, and keep the paths of the righteous. 21For the upright shall dwell in the land, and the perfect shall remain in it. 22But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it.