Having trouble understanding God's foreknowledge and Omni-benevolence!

[Blessedj01]

Hey brothers and sisters,

I am having trouble understanding how God's foreknowledge on how mankind would turn out to be (Sinful and imperfect) is compatible with God being all loving. It seems to me that anyone who chooses to create something that is imperfect, or capable of performing evil, is just being lazy or doesn't care about his/her creation. Is there a good analogy/websites that can help me better understand this issue?

Thanks in advance!

See, you're forgetting that God lowered himself, became a man and died for our sins to rise again and conquer death. There's nothing lazy or uncaring about that.

 

[drich0150]

Something i wrote in another thread answering a simliar question:

Welsh cake Wrote: Obviously not the god you're claiming exists. If you argue there's an omni-benevolent god and we submit to you a reality that demonstrably counters it completely, then clearly you have one heck of a refutation to overcome.Read what I originally wrote again. This is NOT what I am arguing. I have said several different ways God's leading attribute is NOT Omni-Benevolence. Matter of Fact the bible never describes God as Omni Benevolent. The Bible Describes God as Righteous above all else.

Quote:What if for some reason you all have misunderstood the concept of "love?" What if you misunderstand the conditions of God's love? What if you misunderstand the concept that "God is love" above all else?​

Quote:What if Hell is real and we'll ponder that semantics question while we're being tortured for all eternity?​

Again if you were not too busy trying to hold on to your idea of an omni benevolent God you would see the biblical direction I was trying to take the conversation.

Quote:I guess God, being the all-powerful creator of all reality and causality, is clearly under-qualified for the task you propose.​

The failure is not God's it is yours. If you apply for a job your are grossly under qualified for, or if you do not understand the technical aspects of what is required for you, is it the employers fault you are not suited for the task? Or is your ignorance keeping you from being an employable asset? The same is true here if you do not know what is required or what is expected then how can you meet the minimal requirements for what God is offering?

Quote:You first since you're claiming there's a God whose 'love' we don't understand.​

I've done this several times now for several different people but will be happy to provide a basic understanding of the Greek words that all get translated into the English word "love." I can also show you that the English meaning of the word in the last 20 years has changed it's meaning to include a blanket tolerance that was not know to us just one generation ago. But we must first start with what the bible records as "Love." Are you familiar with the 4 Koine Greek words I am speaking about, and what they mean?

Quote:No. Love has conditions I'm afraid. It has limits.​

Good a place to start, now I just need to know what you know about the different aspects of "Love."

Quote:So what is "God who is love" when he doesn't love someone?​

Ask Cain, Esau or Pharaoh. None of these guys were "loved" by God.

Quote:[The writer must have been high that day. The Bible says a lot of things friend. Books usually do.​

Do you see how you have to take my work out of it's context in order to fight the fight you want to argue? I did mention some of the other things the bible said as well, but somehow they got left out.. No room in your straw man for my whole argument huh? Or did you think I simply did not understand the what it was i was implying?

Quote:Righteousness isn't love.​

Holy Smokes!! Finally!!! I was having my doubts but it seems you have redeemed yourself as a "thinker."

Quote:Your god may have a love for "justice" and smiting others, but that isn't love.​

Which brings us back to the point you missed in my first Post! God's leading attribute is not your idea of an all encompassing hippy love. God above all else is Righteous. Omni benevolence is not something taught by the bible. It is something religious men created to worship apart from the bible. Again No Where In The Bible Is God Defined As Omni Benevolent.

Quote:Even you should be able to appreciate the difference.​

Quote:Is your god concept omni-benevolent, as in all-loving, or not?​

No, Why? Because the bible does not say He is Omni Benevolent/all loving. God's love is limited to the Agape aspect of Love. This is how Wiki defines it:
Agape ( /ˈæɡəpiː/[1] or /əˈɡɑːpeɪ/; Classical Greek: ἀγάπη, agápē; Modern Greek: αγάπη IPA: [aˈɣapi]) is one of the Koine Greek words translated into English as love, one which became particularly appropriated in Christian theology as the love of God or Christ for mankind. In the New Testament, it refers to the covenant love of God for humans, as well as the human reciprocal love for God; the term necessarily extends to the love of one’s fellow man.

Did you get that? The Covenant of Love. Meaning Contract or terms and conditions of Love. Simply put it is an equation X+Y=Agape or God's love. Anything out side of this contract or Covenant Is NOT covered by the love of God. This means God is NOT Omni Benevolent God is not ALL Loving. God's love has limits. He set those limits in the Covenant He has with Man. What covenant? The Covenant established Through the Gospel. Meaning if you (x) add the Gospel(y) and incorporate it into your life you will get (=) The Agape love of God.

No other understanding of "love" is offered. Also understand that not knowing what was being offered is no longer an excuse for you or anyone else who reads this message. Meaning do not expect to use this as a judgment day defense.

Quote:At least we can both agree unconditional love is nonsense then.​

 

[Blessedj01]

I don't know...I think God loves us all even when we don't even give two hoots about the gospel.

Otherwise His atonement for our sin, while we are still sinners, would be pointless.

That doesn't mean he drops His justice and wrath though.

 

[food4thought]

Hey brothers and sisters,

I am having trouble understanding how God's foreknowledge on how mankind would turn out to be (Sinful and imperfect) is compatible with God being all loving. It seems to me that anyone who chooses to create something that is imperfect, or capable of performing evil, is just being lazy or doesn't care about his/her creation. Is there a good analogy/websites that can help me better understand this issue?

Thanks in advance!

Hello Asvin;
I will attempt to answer your question using the Word as my guide. Bear with me, because the question is complex and the answer will have to include several things covered earlier in this thread, but from a slightly different view I think, in order to truly answer your question.

The argument for and against free will is a man made dilemma that evaporates in the face of eternity and what it means. The Bible teaches that God stands outside of time alltogether, He alone is "...the High and Lofty One who inhabits eternity" (Isaiah 57:15a). We are bound by time and space within this created universe, God is not bound by either because He dwells outside of the time and space He created. What that is like, to exist outside of our spacetime, is something entirely beyond human thought and comprehension (Isaiah 55:8-9). God can and does control the course of all history because He knows what will happen before it ever does and can directly or indirectly intercede at whatever time and place He chooses, and He orchestrates events to account for what He knows will happen so that the end result of all things is "...for the good of those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purposes. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son" (Romans 8:28-29a).

Wait, we say... if God foreknew ahead of time what I will choose and predestined the events to bring about His purpose, doesn't that mean that I have no choice? But we see clearly from Scripture that we DO have a choice! Scripture testifies; "And if it seems evil to you to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." (Joshua 24:15) Also, "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." (Revelation 22:17) The Bible clearly states that we have a choice and we have a will. So how does one reconcile this? Simply. Predestination is God's perspective from outside time, which He pounds into our minds repeatedly in Scripture; free will is man's perspective from within time, and Scripture barely mentions it because the Scripture was made for man, and everyone knows they have choices to make. God knows every choice we will make before even the first moment of time in our universe, but that does not mean that we didn't still make a choice. God orchestrates events to bring about His purposes, but He does so AROUND and THROUGH our choices... Why? Because our ability to choose is something He greatly cherishes. Why is that?

God created us in His own image (Genesis 1:26-27), and that doesn't mean we look like God (lol), it means we have been given a nature that, in some aspects, reflects His nature (pause and rejoice over this!). That image was marred by Adam's sin, but I strongly believe part of that image that we still retain is free will. That is why God will not take away our free will, because it is part of His image in each of us. Above, we see that God is working all things together for the good of those who love God; but what is that "good"? The next verse answers that question: "that we might be conformed to the image of His Son". If God were to continually thwart our free will, He would be thwarting His own purpose in shaping us in the likeness of His Son, who the Bible testifies is "the express image of His Person" (Hebrews 1:3). So we can see the importance of our free will to God, as He purposes to shape us into the perfect image of His Son Jesus Christ. He wants sons, not mindless slaves.

Now comes the meat of your question, and a further reason why God values our free will... How can, or why would, an all knowing, good God create a creature that is sinful and prone to evil? To begin with, God created man without sin or a sinful nature, only the potential for these by virtue of His ability to choose, which in and of itself is a wonderous thing that echoes the very nature of God. The fact that Adam used that freedom to do evil and disobey God's command does not in any way reduce the goodness of free will. But why, of all the attributes of His nature, did He place that one in His creatures? Answer: capacity for love. At the heart of love is the ability to express that love freely... ask any man to say "I love you" at gunpoint, and you are probably assured of hearing him say "I love you", but you know that statement was not given freely, but under compulsion, and is therefore of no more value than hearing a doll say "I love you" after you pull it's string. ANY expression of a creature without the ability to choose is pretty much the same as that doll... it will simply respond as it was designed to do when the string is pulled. Real love is impossible from such a being.

But God created Adam as an entirely different kind of creature than a lifeless doll, able to both obey and disobey, able to both express love for his Creator or reject it... and also able to do both good and evil, to choose to sin or not to sin in any given situation. Enter Satan, and through his deception man chose to break God's command and follow him and fulfill his selfish desire. Now that image of God, which was supposed to glorify God and express love, is marred by seperation from God; and now all manner of evil desires surface within us because of the curse, all because of Adam's choice to follow Satan. Now even when man chooses to do what is good, there is a corrupt nature within him that warps that good deed into something short of righteousness. I hope you see that without free will there may be a world without sin and evil, but there would be no beings capable of real love for each other or God.


Of course you are familiar with the rest of the story. Paul sums our condition up very nicely in Romans 6-7, and then he gives us the cure in Romans 8. Without the blood of Jesus Christ shed on the cross for us, we would be forever in Romans 6-7, but by faith in Jesus we can receive the Holy Spirit of promise and dwell in Romans 8, freely expressing the love of God through the indwelling power of His Holy Spirit, which we choose to receive by faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ. In this way God accomplishes His purpose for man despite his fallen condition.

Right now the world is full of people who either have the Holy Spirit but choose not to continuously walk in it, or people who do not have the Holy Spirit and choose to do whatever their selfish desires lead them to do (of course they are restrained by their selfish desire to stay alive, out of jail, and have human companionship, so the full extent of their sinful desires are rarely fully realized thank God). So we have a world full of people that still use their free will, to varying extents, to act contrary to God's purpose; yet all the while, despite this, God is working out His purpose of bringing those who will receive Him ever closer to the image of His Son, and thus ever closer to Himself and His ultimate goal: a vast host of immortal creatures who will freely love Him and receive His love throughout eternity. Praise God. Amen.

Hope this helps.

Mike

 

[Asvin]

Hello Asvin;
I will attempt to answer your question using the Word as my guide. Bear with me, because the question is complex and the answer will have to include several things covered earlier in this thread, but from a slightly different view I think, in order to truly answer your question.

The argument for and against free will is a man made dilemma that evaporates in the face of eternity and what it means. The Bible teaches that God stands outside of time alltogether, He alone is "...the High and Lofty One who inhabits eternity" (Isaiah 57:15a). We are bound by time and space within this created universe, God is not bound by either because He dwells outside of the time and space He created. What that is like, to exist outside of our spacetime, is something entirely beyond human thought and comprehension (Isaiah 55:8-9). God can and does control the course of all history because He knows what will happen before it ever does and can directly or indirectly intercede at whatever time and place He chooses, and He orchestrates events to account for what He knows will happen so that the end result of all things is "...for the good of those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purposes. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son" (Romans 8:28-29a).

Wait, we say... if God foreknew ahead of time what I will choose and predestined the events to bring about His purpose, doesn't that mean that I have no choice? But we see clearly from Scripture that we DO have a choice! Scripture testifies; "And if it seems evil to you to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." (Joshua 24:15) Also, "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." (Revelation 22:17) The Bible clearly states that we have a choice and we have a will. So how does one reconcile this? Simply. Predestination is God's perspective from outside time, which He pounds into our minds repeatedly in Scripture; free will is man's perspective from within time, and Scripture barely mentions it because the Scripture was made for man, and everyone knows they have choices to make. God knows every choice we will make before even the first moment of time in our universe, but that does not mean that we didn't still make a choice. God orchestrates events to bring about His purposes, but He does so AROUND and THROUGH our choices... Why? Because our ability to choose is something He greatly cherishes. Why is that?

God created us in His own image (Genesis 1:26-27), and that doesn't mean we look like God (lol), it means we have been given a nature that, in some aspects, reflects His nature (pause and rejoice over this!). That image was marred by Adam's sin, but I strongly believe part of that image that we still retain is free will. That is why God will not take away our free will, because it is part of His image in each of us. Above, we see that God is working all things together for the good of those who love God; but what is that "good"? The next verse answers that question: "that we might be conformed to the image of His Son". If God were to continually thwart our free will, He would be thwarting His own purpose in shaping us in the likeness of His Son, who the Bible testifies is "the express image of His Person" (Hebrews 1:3). So we can see the importance of our free will to God, as He purposes to shape us into the perfect image of His Son Jesus Christ. He wants sons, not mindless slaves.

Now comes the meat of your question, and a further reason why God values our free will... How can, or why would, an all knowing, good God create a creature that is sinful and prone to evil? To begin with, God created man without sin or a sinful nature, only the potential for these by virtue of His ability to choose, which in and of itself is a wonderous thing that echoes the very nature of God. The fact that Adam used that freedom to do evil and disobey God's command does not in any way reduce the goodness of free will. But why, of all the attributes of His nature, did He place that one in His creatures? Answer: capacity for love. At the heart of love is the ability to express that love freely... ask any man to say "I love you" at gunpoint, and you are probably assured of hearing him say "I love you", but you know that statement was not given freely, but under compulsion, and is therefore of no more value than hearing a doll say "I love you" after you pull it's string. ANY expression of a creature without the ability to choose is pretty much the same as that doll... it will simply respond as it was designed to do when the string is pulled. Real love is impossible from such a being.

But God created Adam as an entirely different kind of creature than a lifeless doll, able to both obey and disobey, able to both express love for his Creator or reject it... and also able to do both good and evil, to choose to sin or not to sin in any given situation. Enter Satan, and through his deception man chose to break God's command and follow him and fulfill his selfish desire. Now that image of God, which was supposed to glorify God and express love, is marred by seperation from God; and now all manner of evil desires surface within us because of the curse, all because of Adam's choice to follow Satan. Now even when man chooses to do what is good, there is a corrupt nature within him that warps that good deed into something short of righteousness. I hope you see that without free will there may be a world without sin and evil, but there would be no beings capable of real love for each other or God.


Of course you are familiar with the rest of the story. Paul sums our condition up very nicely in Romans 6-7, and then he gives us the cure in Romans 8. Without the blood of Jesus Christ shed on the cross for us, we would be forever in Romans 6-7, but by faith in Jesus we can receive the Holy Spirit of promise and dwell in Romans 8, freely expressing the love of God through the indwelling power of His Holy Spirit, which we choose to receive by faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ. In this way God accomplishes His purpose for man despite his fallen condition.

Right now the world is full of people who either have the Holy Spirit but choose not to continuously walk in it, or people who do not have the Holy Spirit and choose to do whatever their selfish desires lead them to do (of course they are restrained by their selfish desire to stay alive, out of jail, and have human companionship, so the full extent of their sinful desires are rarely fully realized thank God). So we have a world full of people that still use their free will, to varying extents, to act contrary to God's purpose; yet all the while, despite this, God is working out His purpose of bringing those who will receive Him ever closer to the image of His Son, and thus ever closer to Himself and His ultimate goal: a vast host of immortal creatures who will freely love Him and receive His love throughout eternity. Praise God. Amen.

Hope this helps.

Mike

Wow! Thanks for taking out the time to make it so clear to me! I have encountered the points you have mentioned before, but they never made sense to me.. until now! Thanks!

 

[Asvin]

Thanks for all the replies so far! I have learned something new and have looked at things differently from each one of your posts! I really appreciate your inputs!

Today, I was attending Easter Vigil Mass at my local church and the pastor was describing how the second coming of Jesus will be the "real deal", so to speak. He described how there will be a transformed and better earth, with transformed people and so forth. I suddenly had a question come up in my mind, and it is as follows:

If God is sending Jesus Christ again to transform his creation, especially us humans, then why not do it earlier? Or, why didn't God create the new creation when he first created Adam and Eve?

I would really appreciate any inputs on my dilemma! Thank you!

 

[razeontherock]

Happy Easter Ken! My address to your last question here, is along the lines of the revelation G-d gave to me at the ages of 20 -21. We each can begin this process you ask about, w/o having to "wait for the sweet by and by." There is indeed goodness and beauty etc etc to be experienced, first-hand with G-d, in the here and now. This is a process He wants us all to engage in, and each of us are unique.

What is to come is not complete w/o our present; it's all one process. (Hopes that makes some sense?)

 

[Blessedj01]

Hello Asvin;
I will attempt to answer your question using the Word as my guide. Bear with me, because the question is complex and the answer will have to include several things covered earlier in this thread, but from a slightly different view I think, in order to truly answer your question.

The argument for and against free will is a man made dilemma that evaporates in the face of eternity and what it means. The Bible teaches that God stands outside of time alltogether, He alone is "...the High and Lofty One who inhabits eternity" (Isaiah 57:15a). We are bound by time and space within this created universe, God is not bound by either because He dwells outside of the time and space He created. What that is like, to exist outside of our spacetime, is something entirely beyond human thought and comprehension (Isaiah 55:8-9). God can and does control the course of all history because He knows what will happen before it ever does and can directly or indirectly intercede at whatever time and place He chooses, and He orchestrates events to account for what He knows will happen so that the end result of all things is "...for the good of those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purposes. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son" (Romans 8:28-29a).

Wait, we say... if God foreknew ahead of time what I will choose and predestined the events to bring about His purpose, doesn't that mean that I have no choice? But we see clearly from Scripture that we DO have a choice! Scripture testifies; "And if it seems evil to you to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." (Joshua 24:15) Also, "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." (Revelation 22:17) The Bible clearly states that we have a choice and we have a will. So how does one reconcile this? Simply. Predestination is God's perspective from outside time, which He pounds into our minds repeatedly in Scripture; free will is man's perspective from within time, and Scripture barely mentions it because the Scripture was made for man, and everyone knows they have choices to make. God knows every choice we will make before even the first moment of time in our universe, but that does not mean that we didn't still make a choice. God orchestrates events to bring about His purposes, but He does so AROUND and THROUGH our choices... Why? Because our ability to choose is something He greatly cherishes. Why is that?

God created us in His own image (Genesis 1:26-27), and that doesn't mean we look like God (lol), it means we have been given a nature that, in some aspects, reflects His nature (pause and rejoice over this!). That image was marred by Adam's sin, but I strongly believe part of that image that we still retain is free will. That is why God will not take away our free will, because it is part of His image in each of us. Above, we see that God is working all things together for the good of those who love God; but what is that "good"? The next verse answers that question: "that we might be conformed to the image of His Son". If God were to continually thwart our free will, He would be thwarting His own purpose in shaping us in the likeness of His Son, who the Bible testifies is "the express image of His Person" (Hebrews 1:3). So we can see the importance of our free will to God, as He purposes to shape us into the perfect image of His Son Jesus Christ. He wants sons, not mindless slaves.

Now comes the meat of your question, and a further reason why God values our free will... How can, or why would, an all knowing, good God create a creature that is sinful and prone to evil? To begin with, God created man without sin or a sinful nature, only the potential for these by virtue of His ability to choose, which in and of itself is a wonderous thing that echoes the very nature of God. The fact that Adam used that freedom to do evil and disobey God's command does not in any way reduce the goodness of free will. But why, of all the attributes of His nature, did He place that one in His creatures? Answer: capacity for love. At the heart of love is the ability to express that love freely... ask any man to say "I love you" at gunpoint, and you are probably assured of hearing him say "I love you", but you know that statement was not given freely, but under compulsion, and is therefore of no more value than hearing a doll say "I love you" after you pull it's string. ANY expression of a creature without the ability to choose is pretty much the same as that doll... it will simply respond as it was designed to do when the string is pulled. Real love is impossible from such a being.

But God created Adam as an entirely different kind of creature than a lifeless doll, able to both obey and disobey, able to both express love for his Creator or reject it... and also able to do both good and evil, to choose to sin or not to sin in any given situation. Enter Satan, and through his deception man chose to break God's command and follow him and fulfill his selfish desire. Now that image of God, which was supposed to glorify God and express love, is marred by seperation from God; and now all manner of evil desires surface within us because of the curse, all because of Adam's choice to follow Satan. Now even when man chooses to do what is good, there is a corrupt nature within him that warps that good deed into something short of righteousness. I hope you see that without free will there may be a world without sin and evil, but there would be no beings capable of real love for each other or God.


Of course you are familiar with the rest of the story. Paul sums our condition up very nicely in Romans 6-7, and then he gives us the cure in Romans 8. Without the blood of Jesus Christ shed on the cross for us, we would be forever in Romans 6-7, but by faith in Jesus we can receive the Holy Spirit of promise and dwell in Romans 8, freely expressing the love of God through the indwelling power of His Holy Spirit, which we choose to receive by faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ. In this way God accomplishes His purpose for man despite his fallen condition.

Right now the world is full of people who either have the Holy Spirit but choose not to continuously walk in it, or people who do not have the Holy Spirit and choose to do whatever their selfish desires lead them to do (of course they are restrained by their selfish desire to stay alive, out of jail, and have human companionship, so the full extent of their sinful desires are rarely fully realized thank God). So we have a world full of people that still use their free will, to varying extents, to act contrary to God's purpose; yet all the while, despite this, God is working out His purpose of bringing those who will receive Him ever closer to the image of His Son, and thus ever closer to Himself and His ultimate goal: a vast host of immortal creatures who will freely love Him and receive His love throughout eternity. Praise God. Amen.

Hope this helps.

Mike

good read shot bro

 

[drich0150]

I don't know...I think God loves us all even when we don't even give two hoots about the gospel.

I did not say God did not love us when we sin or we are unrepentant about our sin. I said that God's leading attribute was not an all encompassing love (hippy love) that would prevent Him from being righteous.

That doesn't mean he drops His justice and wrath though.

Which puts an all encompassing "love" second to the attribute (Righteousness) that demands Justice and wrath does it not?

In otherwords The Agape Love of God has boundaries. Otherwise there would have been no need for the sacrifice of Christ.

 

[Asvin]

Happy Easter Ken! My address to your last question here, is along the lines of the revelation G-d gave to me at the ages of 20 -21. We each can begin this process you ask about, w/o having to "wait for the sweet by and by." There is indeed goodness and beauty etc etc to be experienced, first-hand with G-d, in the here and now. This is a process He wants us all to engage in, and each of us are unique.

What is to come is not complete w/o our present; it's all one process. (Hopes that makes some sense?)

Happy Easter!

So, does God wants us to have this life to experience spiritual growth and mature us for all the good stuff he has in store for us?

 

[food4thought]

Thanks for all the replies so far! I have learned something new and have looked at things differently from each one of your posts! I really appreciate your inputs!

Today, I was attending Easter Vigil Mass at my local church and the pastor was describing how the second coming of Jesus will be the "real deal", so to speak. He described how there will be a transformed and better earth, with transformed people and so forth. I suddenly had a question come up in my mind, and it is as follows:

If God is sending Jesus Christ again to transform his creation, especially us humans, then why not do it earlier? Or, why didn't God create the new creation when he first created Adam and Eve?

I would really appreciate any inputs on my dilemma! Thank you!

To be honest, Scripture is not very clear on this subject. There is this well known verse:

2Pe 3:8-9 NASB But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. (9) The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

But I think that more explains why time is stretching on instead of why He didn't just create a new world right after the fall.

I have some thoughts, but I can't think of any Scripture that directly supports them... I simply believe they are consistent with what Scripture teaches about God's plan.

To start with, God wanted to redeem His creatures before He destroyed the world and made a new one. This required the death and resurrection of His Son, as nothing less would do to fulfill all righteousness in punishing the sin of rebellion against Himself. Without Jesus, every human from Adam to me and you would still be required to pay the penalty of death and seperation from God for our rebellion against Him. So if God wanted to recreate the world right after the fall, He would have had to either bring Christ into the world immediately or sentence Adam and Eve, and all who were born after them, to hell. Imagine how many of the redeemed men and women that will spend eternity with God would never have been born if God had just destroyed and recreated the world immediately. By doing it this way, I believe that God's plan for the ages provides the greatest number of saved and lowest percentage of lost. I trust in God's love and mercy that this path that He has charted for us will result in the greatest possible end result in eternity.

Also, I think there is another reason for this fallen world to be the best path for our eternity. The result of our sin and rebellion against God is that there is immense sorrow and suffering in this world. Those of us who live in this world experience the resultant horrors of rebellion against God in all their aspects and terrible consequences. Imagine now entering heaven, all this sorrow and suffering is past, yet we have seen and experienced firsthand the result of rebellion against God... are we going to rebel again, knowing the consequences to the extent that we do? I THINK NOT!!! We will never again be deceived into thinking that going our own way against God's command is somehow a thing to be desired, as Adam and Eve were deceived. We will forever know the consequences of going our own way, of serving our own selfish desires and ambitions, of turning away from God and all His goodness... all we will have to do is remember the state of the fallen world. Without that experience, what is to prevent a future rebellion, starting the cycle all over again? Remember, God does not want an eternity with autonomitons, He wants eternity with sons who can receive His love and freely express love back to Him. I think the suffering of this world provides a necessary part of the security of our eternity with God.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Mike

 

[razeontherock]

So, does God wants us to have this life to experience spiritual growth and mature us for all the good stuff he has in store for us?

YES! For the believer, that is the whole point of Judgment Day. Those things that were bad, (sin etc) will be burned up. Those things that were good, will remain; and to who has more, more will be given. None really knows exactly what this means, but this is how you reconcile Faith with works, with the main point here being HOPE

ETA: I also agree with the above post, which covers many things we've seen addressed here about sin in heaven, etc

 

[Blessedj01]

I did not say God did not love us when we sin or we are unrepentant about our sin. I said that God's leading attribute was not an all encompassing love (hippy love) that would prevent Him from being righteous.


Which puts an all encompassing "love" second to the attribute (Righteousness) that demands Justice and wrath does it not?

In otherwords The Agape Love of God has boundaries. Otherwise there would have been no need for the sacrifice of Christ.

I don't know if the love comes second, but I do agree with everything else. I think from what you're describing it sounds like all His attributes stand equally as strong as each other.and he compromises none of them for any other.

 

[bling]

Thanks for all the replies so far! I have learned something new and have looked at things differently from each one of your posts! I really appreciate your inputs!

Today, I was attending Easter Vigil Mass at my local church and the pastor was describing how the second coming of Jesus will be the "real deal", so to speak. He described how there will be a transformed and better earth, with transformed people and so forth. I suddenly had a question come up in my mind, and it is as follows:

If God is sending Jesus Christ again to transform his creation, especially us humans, then why not do it earlier? Or, why didn't God create the new creation when he first created Adam and Eve?

I would really appreciate any inputs on my dilemma! Thank you!

Simple speaking: There are some things even God cannot do and that is why we are on earth (our objective while here). God cannot make being with Godly type Love, instinctive love is robotic type love (not really Godly type Love) and forcing people to accept His Love is not Loving on God’s part (forcing people is not loving).

Godly type Love must be freely humbly accepted as pure charity, so we must have likely alternatives to have a real choice and those likely alternatives for humans are the perceived pleasures of sin.