Have heaven and earth passed away yet?

[Lulav]

So, you seem to believe that Jesus Christ will literally have marital relations with his Bride. Do you really believe this?

As it was in the beginning, yes. In a fleshly understanding, no

[URL='http://biblehub.com/genesis/2-7.htm']Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul... [/URL]
15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it....
18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him....
20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field;
but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.

21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; 22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.



Joshua 22:But take diligent heed to do the commandment and the law, which Moses the servant of the LORD charged you, to love the LORD your God, and to walk in all his ways, and to keep his commandments, and to cleave unto him, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul.

Matthew 19:3 The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause? 4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, 5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? 6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

 

[bugkiller]

Please show me where I said anything remotely like that.

Just read what you wrote.

bugkiller

 

[Bob S]

It appears that everyone is off topic. Has Heaven and Earth passed away yet is the topic and I am wonder why the the initiator of the OP would even pose such a question in light of the full meaning of Matt 5? Jesus qualified the heaven and earth statement by the words "until all is fulfilled". Until all is fulfilled is in reference to Torah. Torah ended at the Cross. Israel abrogated the covenant by continuously breaking it. Jesus did what Israel failed to do. At the Cross a new and better, not like the covenant given to only Israel, covenant was ratified, not by the blood of an animal, but by the Blood of Jesus. Amen!

 

[Lulav]

Wondering if those who are against being part of Israel do you believe that God has a Bride(wife) and Jesus has one also, a separate bride(wife?

If you have a brother is or can he be married to your mother while dad is married to her?

I'm sorry, can you reword that? I'm sure you aren't speaking of incest here, right?

Isn't that exactly what you preposed about God the Father and God the Son?

Please show me where I said anything remotely like that.

Just read what you wrote.

I did, and your question makes no sense. I don't get where you are saying a brother married to his mother?

If you believe that Jesus is God incarnate and that God put all things into his hands then when God made a covenant of marriage with Israel which you call the Old Testament and that a New Testament or New Covenant would be made as per Jeremiah 31 and it would be through the Messiah how can you say this is incest?

The covenant is still the same. It is just done differently. Just as the people were afraid when God spoke directly to them at the foot of the mountain, they begged Moses to go up and be a spokeman for God for they feared him. Later in Deut. we read that they 'rightly' said they wanted a 'go between' and that he would send them one, like Moses, not Moses, but like Moses who would speak all his words to them.

This 'go between' was and is the Messiah, Jesus. Someone we could relate to.

 

[Dkh587]

Torah ended at the Cross. Israel abrogated the covenant by continuously breaking it. Jesus did what Israel failed to do. At the Cross a new and better, not like the covenant given to only Israel, covenant was ratified, not by the blood of an animal, but by the Blood of Jesus. Amen!

How did the Torah end at the cross when the new covenant that was made with the Messiah's blood is all about The Most High writing his Torah(law) on the hearts of his people?!?!

“But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my Torah(law) in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.”
‭‭Jeremiah‬ ‭31:33‬ ‭KJV‬

 

[Travis93]

The millennial kingdom is going to be amazing. It will include
-Ezekiel's third temple, complete with animal sacrifices (Ezekiel 40-Ezekiel 48)
-Enforced dietary laws (Isaiah 66:17)
-Feast of tabernacles mandatory for all mankind (Zechariah 14:16)
-Sabbaths and new moon worship for all people (Isaiah 66:23, Ezekiel 46:3)
-Mandatory circumcision for all gentiles to worship (Ezekiel 44:9)
-Everyone will travel to Jerusalem to hear how to follow the law (Isaiah 2:2-3, Micah 4:2-3)
-Restored levitical priesthood (Isaiah 66:21, Jeremiah 33:18)
-All false religions and idols destroyed (Zephaniah 2:11, Zechariah 13:2)

How did the Torah end at the cross when the new covenant that was made with the Messiah's blood is all about The Most High writing his Torah(law) on the hearts of his people?!?!

“But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my Torah(law) in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.”
‭‭Jeremiah‬ ‭31:33‬ ‭KJV‬

Indeed, here's a parallel passage.
Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Ezekiel 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

I don't think the new covenant has actually started yet myself. Ezekiel 36:28-38 and Jeremiah 31:34-40 link it to the people of Israel all being back in their land, never to be harmed again, as well as all people on earth knowing God. Seeing as we have to evangelize people today and modern Israel is most certainly not in a state of comfort and peace, it seems like we aren't there yet. I think the new covenant will start at Revelation 21 with the new heaven and earth. The reason there will be no pain or sorrow (Revelation 21:4) is that with the law written on our hearts no one will do anything to harm one another, we will live in perfect harmony with each other and God. No more sickness was promised all the way back in Exodus 23:25.

 

[disciple1]

Matthew 7:17 Do not think I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy but to fulfil.
Matthew 7:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Matthew 7:19 Whosoever therefor shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men to do so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven, but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Luke 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law of to fail.
Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away, and there was no more sea.

Romans chapter 6
14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.

 

[ScottA]

Matthew 7:17 Do not think I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy but to fulfil.
Matthew 7:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Matthew 7:19 Whosoever therefor shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men to do so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven, but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Luke 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law of to fail.
Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away, and there was no more sea.

You and I and those of these times merely exist within the pages of a story (His story) that is already finished - and we are last to know. As it is written: "So the last will be first, and the first last." Matthew 20:16.

So, then, if it does not all unfold as the world would interpret the words that are written, how then does it all unfold? It does so, "as in the days of Noah", which if understood correctly, simply means that as the first days unfolded the story and revelation of the Son of Man, so too, the last days are a return to the fold.

"It is finished."

 

[bugkiller]

I did, and your question makes no sense. I don't get where you are saying a brother married to his mother?

If you believe that Jesus is God incarnate and that God put all things into his hands then when God made a covenant of marriage with Israel which you call the Old Testament and that a New Testament or New Covenant would be made as per Jeremiah 31 and it would be through the Messiah how can you say this is incest?

The covenant is still the same. It is just done differently. Just as the people were afraid when God spoke directly to them at the foot of the mountain, they begged Moses to go up and be a spokeman for God for they feared him. Later in Deut. we read that they 'rightly' said they wanted a 'go between' and that he would send them one, like Moses, not Moses, but like Moses who would speak all his words to them.

This 'go between' was and is the Messiah, Jesus. Someone we could relate to.

OK let's examine what you said -

Wondering if those who are against being part of Israel do you believe that God has a Bride(wife) and Jesus has one also, a separate bride(wife?

If we are apart of Israel as you contend, would that not make the Church Israel - God the Father's wife? How then can the Church also be the bride (wife ) of Jesus?

The problem I see with your question is that's its a negative you see as a positive. You believe they're the same Bide/wife. Scripture clearly shows this to be an error. The heresies you believe allow for your POV.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

I did, and your question makes no sense. I don't get where you are saying a brother married to his mother?

If you believe that Jesus is God incarnate and that God put all things into his hands then when God made a covenant of marriage with Israel which you call the Old Testament and that a New Testament or New Covenant would be made as per Jeremiah 31 and it would be through the Messiah how can you say this is incest?

The covenant is still the same. It is just done differently. Just as the people were afraid when God spoke directly to them at the foot of the mountain, they begged Moses to go up and be a spokeman for God for they feared him. Later in Deut. we read that they 'rightly' said they wanted a 'go between' and that he would send them one, like Moses, not Moses, but like Moses who would speak all his words to them.

This 'go between' was and is the Messiah, Jesus. Someone we could relate to.

Now for the covenant being the same I have this to say - The details of this NC aren't foretold. YOu believe they're the same only moved from stone to the heart. What does the prophet Jeremiah say?

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

You want to say that all other people are excluded from this covenant mentioned in v 31. I've no idea where you get this notion from. It certainly isn't the Christian Bible. Just read Acts of the Apostles. Gentiles are most definitely included without adhering to the OC (The Law). The verse plainly says "new" opposed to "renew." The Hebrew/Chaldea transcript will fully support my view. It says literally "cut a new stone." There is absolutely nothing that indicates a remodeling or moving job.

The next verse self defines this word with "Not according to" also fully supported by the original transcript language/wording. The verse also specifies exactly what it would not be like.

The next verse (33) also verifies my view with "But" showing a difference between the covenants.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

How did the Torah end at the cross when the new covenant that was made with the Messiah's blood is all about The Most High writing his Torah(law) on the hearts of his people?!?!

“But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my Torah(law) in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.”
‭‭Jeremiah‬ ‭31:33‬ ‭KJV‬

That simply is not what your quoted and wrongly implied verse says. You've divorced the last third of the sentence form the first 2/3. You're treating v 33 as an entirely different subject/idea of the entire sentence.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

The millennial kingdom is going to be amazing. It will include
-Ezekiel's third temple, complete with animal sacrifices (Ezekiel 40-Ezekiel 48)
-Enforced dietary laws (Isaiah 66:17)
-Feast of tabernacles mandatory for all mankind (Zechariah 14:16)
-Sabbaths and new moon worship for all people (Isaiah 66:23, Ezekiel 46:3)
-Mandatory circumcision for all gentiles to worship (Ezekiel 44:9)
-Everyone will travel to Jerusalem to hear how to follow the law (Isaiah 2:2-3, Micah 4:2-3)
-Restored levitical priesthood (Isaiah 66:21, Jeremiah 33:18)
-All false religions and idols destroyed (Zephaniah 2:11, Zechariah 13:2)

Indeed, here's a parallel passage.
Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Ezekiel 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

I don't think the new covenant has actually started yet myself. Ezekiel 36:28-38 and Jeremiah 31:34-40 link it to the people of Israel all being back in their land, never to be harmed again, as well as all people on earth knowing God. Seeing as we have to evangelize people today and modern Israel is most certainly not in a state of comfort and peace, it seems like we aren't there yet. I think the new covenant will start at Revelation 21 with the new heaven and earth. The reason there will be no pain or sorrow (Revelation 21:4) is that with the law written on our hearts no one will do anything to harm one another, we will live in perfect harmony with each other and God. No more sickness was promised all the way back in Exodus 23:25.

If the NC hasn't started yet you have no Messiah.

bugkiller

 

[Travis93]

Romans chapter 6
14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.

Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

 

[Dkh587]

That simply is not what your quoted and wrongly implied verse says. You've divorced the last third of the sentence form the first 2/3. You're treating v 33 as an entirely different subject/idea of the entire sentence.

bugkiller

How did I wrongly apply anything?

The verse I quoted was the Most High explaining how [part of] the covenant would operate: He would write His laws and statutes on our hearts, those who believe and obey in him & take part in his new covenant. He said it was not not like before, and he would put his Torah deep within us, and write his Torah on our hearts

This would be one of the purposes of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. To empower us and guide us and lead us into all truth

When we repent[which means to return to the Torah]and believe in + follow the Messiah, we come part of the true nation of Israel, the nation where the Messiah will rule the earth from during His millennial reign. Not the Zionist nation ran by fake jews today. The Israel that's written about in the bible - all the true genetic descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the 12 tribes etc, who lived a faithful and righteous life will rule with Messiah. With the faithful & righteous people up to Moses & the Torah, Along with all the "gentile" believers who joined to the nation through the Messiah,
And all the strangers(Gentiles) from the different nations who joined themselves to the God of Israel and lived according to his commandments(before the Messiah came)

We are a part of this covenant that the Most High Yah has made with Israel and Judah

Here's the whole passage from Jeremiah


“Behold, the days come, saith YAH, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith YAH: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith YAH, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, know Yah: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith YAH: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
‭‭Jeremiah‬ ‭31:31-34‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[Bob S]

How did the Torah end at the cross when the new covenant that was made with the Messiah's blood is all about The Most High writing his Torah(law) on the hearts of his people?!?!‬

I am sorry my friend, but it is very evident you have not grasp the writings of the New Testament. The laws for Christians are not Torah as evidenced in the writings of Paul and John. Read what John told us in 1Jn3:19 This is how we know that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence: 20 If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. 21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. 23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

Love is the theme of the New Testament. There is no greater love than to lay down our lives for others. That is what Jesus did on the Cross. Jesus kept Torah and asked us to keep His commands and He wrote that His command is to love others as He loves us. Love is what is written on our hearts, not the ritual laws given only to Israel. Why would God want Gentiles to observe laws given to Israel only. To believe we must observe Torah is asinine, it takes away what Jesus has done for mankind. Loving others as Jesus loves us covers every aspect of morality. It covers I will not steal, bear false witness, murder, adultery, and every other moral issue known to man. Trying to serve Jesus by keeping laws meant for Israel is making a mockery of all that Jesus has and is doing for all of mankind.

“But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my Torah(law) in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.”
‭‭Jeremiah‬ ‭31:33‬ ‭KJV

If you really believe that it is Torah that is in our hearts then why doesn't everyone have a burning desire to rebuild the Temple so that we can sacrifice animals, use animals blood to wash away our sins, do all that is required in Torah without making excuses why we cannot? We have two main choices, serve Moses and the law or serve Jesus and His Grace. I, for one, choose to serve a loving Savior that asked us to believe in Him and love each other as He loves us.. There are no other commands that could possibly equal this. All our own righteousness (works of the law) are like filthy rags.

Jeremiah tells us very clearly that the new covenant would not be like the old one. Hebrew tell us it is a better covenant with better promises 6 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises. 7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another.

If the new covenant is just the old one warmed over then why did the writer of Hebrews go to the bother of explaining to us that the new one has better promises and why did Jeremiah write that it would not be like the old one in verse 32? Why do Torah thumpers leave that bit of information out and instead write that Torah means law in verse 33?

You have an agenda to try to prove we have to obey Torah and you have twisted scripture to try to prove your point. I have no idea how you came to believe what you are trying to push on others, what I do know is that if we push false beliefs on others we are responsible to our maker. I, for one, do not take that lightly.

 

[1John2:4]

Wondering if those who are against being part of Israel do you believe that God has a Bride(wife) and Jesus has one also, a separate bride(wife?

I really am interested in learning and discussing this topic further. Can you set up a new thread or can we continue on this one? I realize it's a bit off the topic being discussed here and I don't want to break the rules thanks so much Sister in Yeshua

 

[Lulav]

I really am interested in learning and discussing this topic further. Can you set up a new thread or can we continue on this one? I realize it's a bit off the topic being discussed here and I don't want to break the rules thanks so much Sister in Yeshua

Sure, be happy to. , I'll post back in here to the link so as not to derail this thread.

 

[1John2:4]

Sure, be happy to. , I'll post back in here to the link so as not to derail this thread.

Sounds good thanks

 

[bugkiller]

Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Righteousness of the law isn't what God requires. See Rom 4.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

How did I wrongly apply anything?

The verse I quoted was the Most High explaining how [part of] the covenant would operate: He would write His laws and statutes on our hearts, those who believe and obey in him & take part in his new covenant. He said it was not not like before, and he would put his Torah deep within us, and write his Torah on our hearts.

You're plainly saying the difference is movement. The passage in Jeremiah we have in mind doesn't come close to suggesting sucha thing.

bugkiller