Have any Eastern Church Bishops ever supported prostitution?

[Basil the Great]

I trust not...

I bring up this subject because I saw an hour long program last night on one of the upper channels about the history of prostitution. The program claimed that during the Middle Ages, some of the Bishops in the West were actively involved in setting up houses of prostitution and seeing that they were run in a somewhat wholesome manner. Supposedly one-half of the earnings of the prostitutes in these particular houses were expected to go help support monasteries. This was apparently an indirect form of taxation. The Bishop of Avignon, France was specifically mentioned as being one of those involved. Now the program did not say how widespread this practice was and I certainly hope that it was not very common. I just wondered if there is any history of this taking place in the East as well?

 

[ArmyMatt]

from what I have read in my Church history courses, no. folks within the Church may have, but not as far as the Church is concerned.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I was a bit shocked at the question. I am not historically educated enough to be able to answer with absolute certainty, but I would think not! Sexual activity outside of marriage is not considered acceptable.

Now one thing I have read is about a Saint going to bless a house, and part of it was used as a brothel. The Saint insisted on blessing the ladies who worked there and spoke kindly to them. The madam was opposed to him blessing them, and iirc the Saint said something about their hearts being purer than the madam's or something like that. I forget which Saint. It MIGHT have been St. Paisios, but maybe not. And I've read other brief instances of Saints being kind to prostitutes. After all, historically, many of the women in such a profession were there out of dire necessity of survival, and ought to be pitied.

But I would be shocked if it were promoted and endorsed by the Church. Of course, if any individual ever did, then at least I would expect they were going against the Church's teaching.

 

[Basil the Great]

I apologize if the question posed shocked any of you. The history piece on tv last night shocked me, to say the least. Obviously, I certainly hope and trust that the answer to my question is "no", that no known EO Bishops during the Middle Ages (or any other time period for that matter) were actively involved in the prostitution business, as apparently took place in the West. Yes, I am certainly aware that the Church's teaching, both East and West, has always been that sex outside of marriage is sinful.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I apologize if the question posed shocked any of you. The history piece on tv last night shocked me, to say the least. Obviously, I certainly hope and trust that the answer to my question is "no", that no known EO Bishops during the Middle Ages (or any other time period for that matter) were actively involved in the prostitution business, as apparently took place in the West. Yes, I am certainly aware that the Church's teaching, both East and West, has always been that sex outside of marriage is sinful.

No need to apologize for shocking me. No criticism was intended. But I guess that I WAS shocked at the idea, and so posted a little differently than I would have if I'd been thinking.

I wasn't meaning to tell you basic morality as if you didn't know either - I was still in shock and sort of rolling that question around in my mind, and sort of thinking through it. My apologies if I seemed condescending. I was "talking to myself" essentially, not thinking I was informing you of anything.

And I can imagine that you WERE shocked by the program. Though to be fair, I always take such things with a grain of salt as I've sometimes heard untrue charges. I really have zero idea about the whole thing though.

 

[Basil the Great]

No problem, Anastasia. I recall from your past posts that you are most kind. If I could, I would change the thread title to read: "Have any Eastern Church Bishops ever support prostitution?" However, I know of no way to change the title of a thread.

 

[~Anastasia~]

No problem, Anastasia. I recall from your past posts that you are most kind. If I could, I would change the thread title to read: "Have any Eastern Church Bishops ever support prostitution?" However, I know of no way to change the title of a thread.

Thread titles require special permissions to change. I can put in a request if you think it's important enough. But to be honest what shocked me was the description of any bishop (even non-Orthodox) basically turning prostitution into a Church-associated business, in any sense.

Please, this isn't meant as criticism. You don't need to do anything. It really was the idea, and ideas sometimes do that.

But if you do really want the title changed, I can submit it for you (or you can always submit any mod request yourself by stating in a post what you want done in your thread, and then reporting that post with a comment that you're requesting a mod edit.).

 

[Basil the Great]

Thread titles require special permissions to change. I can put in a request if you think it's important enough. But to be honest what shocked me was the description of any bishop (even non-Orthodox) basically turning prostitution into a Church-associated business, in any sense.

Please, this isn't meant as criticism. You don't need to do anything. It really was the idea, and ideas sometimes do that.

But if you do really want the title changed, I can submit it for you (or you can always submit any mod request yourself by stating in a post what you want done in your thread, and then reporting that post with a comment that you're requesting a mod edit.).

 

[Basil the Great]

Yes, please put in a request to change the title thread, as I suggested. Many thanks! By the way, without going into details, according to the television program, it was not just the Bishop of Avignon who was involved in the brothel business. However, no mention was made of this practice in the East and thus the reason for my thread.

 

[Ioustinos]

I was a bit shocked at the question. I am not historically educated enough to be able to answer with absolute certainty, but I would think not! Sexual activity outside of marriage is not considered acceptable.

Now one thing I have read is about a Saint going to bless a house, and part of it was used as a brothel. The Saint insisted on blessing the ladies who worked there and spoke kindly to them. The madam was opposed to him blessing them, and iirc the Saint said something about their hearts being purer than the madam's or something like that. I forget which Saint. It MIGHT have been St. Paisios, but maybe not. And I've read other brief instances of Saints being kind to prostitutes. After all, historically, many of the women in such a profession were there out of dire necessity of survival, and ought to be pitied.

But I would be shocked if it were promoted and endorsed by the Church. Of course, if any individual ever did, then at least I would expect they were going against the Church's teaching.

That was St. Porphyrios of Kafsokalivia

 

[buzuxi02]

Most likely these bishops you mention acted as tax collectors or magistrates or were appointed for other imperial roles on behalf of the authorities.

In the Byzantine world many church canons and secular laws were enacted against prostitution, against the keeping of concubines, and the patronizing of brothels, child prostitution laws became very strict by the 6th century.. Cergy were forbiden from marrying actresses (most actresses were high priced hookers working in elite cabarets and theaters) this was also secular law for all nobility until Justinians reforms. But at the same time brothels were never completely outlawed.
In fact modern day European brothels and prostitution laws and practises have their roots in these ancient laws. For example a man can visit a licensed brothel but a prostitute cannot be delivered to the man nor work apart from a licensed brothel (there's a law in justinians codex that such a prostitute is exempt from anti- prostitution laws) . These practises have nothing to do with public health , brothels are simply lucrative and pay taxes.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Yes, please put in a request to change the title thread, as I suggested. Many thanks! By the way, without going into details, according to the television program, it was not just the Bishop of Avignon who was involved in the brothel business. However, no mention was made of this practice in the East and thus the reason for my thread.

I can understand asking. I might have too, if I'd seen that.

I put in the request, btw. Not sure who is online or how busy they might be right now, but I'm sure it will be taken care of.

 

[~Anastasia~]

That was St. Porphyrios of Kafsokalivia

Ah, thank you! That does sound very characteristic of him, and I read books by/about those two Saints at about the same time. Thank you!

 

[prodromos]

I bring up this subject because I saw an hour long program last night on one of the upper channels about the history of prostitution. The program claimed that during the Middle Ages, some of the Bishops in the West were actively involved in setting up houses of prostitution and seeing that they were run in a somewhat wholesome manner.

TV programs don't have footnotes with references to their sources, do they. I would not accept what they've presented without examining their sources. They could claim anything they wanted and often do if it puts clergy in a bad light.

 

[Light of the East]

TV programs don't have footnotes with references to their sources, do they. I would not accept what they've presented without examining their sources. They could claim anything they wanted and often do if it puts clergy in a bad light.

It's to the point that anything the media says about the Church I pretty much find to be bogus. Bottom line: they hate us.