Has the Catholic Church become the church that Jesus wanted or not?

[bbbbbbb]

Read the CC Catechism. It is in there.

Been there, done that. Yes, Purgatory is in the CC Catechism, but it is not in the Bible. I never expected such a forthright confession from you.

 

[Goatee]

Been there, done that. Yes, Purgatory is in the CC Catechism, but it is not in the Bible. I never expected such a forthright confession from you.

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/purgatory

Info for u to digest my dear buddy.

 

[BobRyan]

Actually, the starting point of this thread was not to affirm that it was so but to question whether it was so. Over some months the questioner had his questions answered. Here he finally states what he figured out, after 1445 posts. Your mileage may vary.

The starting point with each person is to assume their own church is right - on the points where it differs with other churches. To assume your own church is wrong as your starting point - is to be a member of a different church.

If however one is open to objective reason and Bible evidence - well then -- real instructive benefit can result.

The wrong way to do it is "I could not be made to look at the evidence objectively - I was worried for while that someone might be able to make me look --- but nobody was so now I am confirmed in my existing denomination" -- and of course lots of people in every group - including the RCC play that sort of game. No news there.

I find that whole line of argument to be not at all compelling to the same degree that it is also not at all objective.

Completely wrong

You have free will - you can believe whatever you wish

 

[BobRyan]

When i started this thread i had questions. Now, i know that the CC is the right church. The True church. All the rest have been built on sand!

So say we all - about our own ... is that supposed to be news?

By definition each group has some doctrinal difference from the rest - and on those points believes that they are right and the other wrong.

By definition. That was the starting point.

The "insight" would have been in actually pointing to some objective Bible fact to make a case.

Sorry but i dont see much Biblical fact in what your denomination says.

You have free will - you can believe whatever you wish.

But it is pretty obvious that your solution of "we are right because we always say we are right" is the solution everyone has available to them - and proves nothing.

Also "your group is wrong because we always say your group is wrong" is another great line of argument everyone can use. IT also proves nothing.

Details matter.

 

[BobRyan]

Denominations are on an endless road of contention and discord. My "denomination" is the kingdom itself. .

So say we all

 

[BobRyan]

What a load of rubbish! The CC does not reject the Bible as you state!

Except that it is on your list of prohibited books and was burned in the dark ages. .... except for that...

How many "other" denominations can claim that distinction?

 

[BobRyan]

I think I posted this on one of these threads ...

================================================

No I am sorry to say that if you are looking for a group claiming to have "the powers" to confect "the body and blood, together with the soul and divinity," of Christ -- there is only one. And in your own "Faith Explained" Catholic commentary on the Baltimore Catechism after Vatican II - your own souce admits that such worship of the bread is idolatry - if in fact that Catholic argument is wrong about having those "powers".
t "The Faith Explained" -- -"more details"

-------

The Faith Explained – A bestselling RC commentary on the Baltimore Catechism post Vatican II by Leo J. Trese
Complete with papal “imprimatur” -

Trese's work is promoted as “A standard reference for every Catholic home and library”. Complete with Papal Imprimatur -- Quote from page 350-351

Parenthetical inserts “mine”
=====================================================================
The Faith Explained – Page 350
“On this, the last night before His death, Jesus is making His last will and testament.

Ibid. Page 351

A last will is no place for figurative speech (in the Catholic opinion); under the best of circumstances (human) courts sometimes have difficulty in interpreting a testator’s intentions aright, even without the confusion of symbolic language. Moreover, since Jesus is God, He knew that as a result of His words that night, untold millions of people would be worshipping him through the centuries under the appearance of the bread. if he would not really be present under those appearances, the worshippers would be adoring a mere piece of bread, and would be guilty of idolatry,. Certainly that is something that God Himself would set the stage for, by talking in obscure figurative speech.
…
IF Jesus was using a metaphor; if what He really meant was, “This bread is a sort of SYMBOL of My Body, and this is a SYMBOL of My Blood (not yet spilled – so they were not then participating in sacrifice); hereafter, any time that My followers get together and partake of the bread and wine like this, they will be honoring Me and representing My death”; if that IS what Jesus meant (as many protestants claim), then the apostles got Him all wrong (in the Catholic option here). And through their misunderstanding (can the Catholic document blame the Apostles for RCC tradition and doctrine?), mankind has for centuries worshiped A PIECE OF BREAD as God”

====================================== end

So it is not a bit surprising that non-Catholics who totally reject the idea of the Catholic "powers" to "confect the body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ" -- consider their worship of that bread to be much the way Leo Trese says it would be were the RC claim to be false.

What is MORE amazing is that such a large group of Catholics fall into the group that Trese imagines only Protestants to be in.


Now notice what Catholics themselves think is going on ----



From: http://www.archdiocesesantafe.org/ABSheehan/ABSMessages/95.5.Eucharist.html

Is The Eucharist Really
Christ's Body and Blood?

By Archbishop Michael J. Sheehan
May 1995 issue of The People of God - the newspaper of the Archdiocese of Santa Fe, N.M.

An Alarming Gallup Poll

Recently, a Gallup poll was taken on Catholic attitudes toward Holy Communion. The poll showed serious confusion among Catholics about one of the most basic beliefs of the Church.

• Only 30 percent of those surveyed believe they are actually receiving the Body and Blood, soul and divinity of the Lord Jesus Christ under the appearance of bread and wine.
• 29 percent think they are receiving bread and wine which symbolize the spirit and teachings of Jesus and, in so doing, are expressing their attachment to His person and words.
• 10 percent understand their action to be receiving bread and wine in which Jesus is present.
• 23 percent hold that they are receiving what has become the Body and Blood of Christ because of their personal belief.

Any well-informed Catholic will recognize that only the first option, chosen by the 30 percent, is true Catholic teaching. The other options represent various forms of Protestant belief.

As Archbishop, "I am deeply concerned about the inaccurate and distorted views of the Eucharist apparently held by many of our people. I believe it is important to clearly understand the correct doctrine; then, to live according to that doctrine."

========================================

we cannot vilify non-Catholics for admitting to what Catholic teaching sources say - i

 

[Goatee]

Except that it is on your list of prohibited books and was burned in the dark ages. .... except for that...

How many "other" denominations can claim that distinction?

Utter nonsense

 

[Goatee]

Snip

U need to stop using the back of cereal packets as sources of information for your posts!

 

[BobRyan]

snip

Why do you say that?

oh no wait! That is how you "Answered all those questions!" --

Nice going -- you have free will - you can choose that path if you wish.

 

[BobRyan]

What a load of rubbish! The CC does not reject the Bible as you state!

Except that it is on your list of prohibited books and was burned in the dark ages. .... except for that...

How many "other" denominations can claim that distinction?

Utter nonsense

Was that yet another "Answer" to historical fact that does not suit your preference??

Granted - you appear to have an endless supply of that sort of "answer". No one questions that.

meanwhile - for the "rest of us" there is "actual history"
=================================

Roman Catholic "Church" Prohibited Bible Reading

The following is excerpted from an article by David Cloud entitled, "The KJV and the Latin Vulgate".

The Council of Trent (1545-1564) placed the Bible on its list of prohibited books, and forbade any person to read the Bible without a license from a Roman Catholic bishop or inquisitor.

The Council added these words: "That if any one shall dare to read or keep in his possession that book, without such a license, he shall not receive absolution till he has given it up to his ordinary."

Pope Pius VII (1800-1823) denounced the Bible Society and expressed shock at the circulation of the Scriptures. Pius VII said, "It is evidence from experience, that the holy Scriptures, when circulated in the vulgar tongue, have, through the temerity of men, produced more harm than benefit."

Pope Leo XII called the Protestant Bible the "Gospel of the Devil" in an encyclical letter of 1824. Pope Gregory XVI (1831-1846) railed "against the publication, distribution, reading, and possession of books of the holy Scriptures translated into the vulgar tongue." Pope Leo XII, in January 1850, condemned the Bible Societies and admitted the fact that the distribution of Scripture has "long been condemned by the holy chair."

 

[Goatee]

Why do you say that?

oh no wait! That is how you "Answered all those questions!" --

Nice going -- you have free will - you can choose that path if you wish.

Snip is a term to leave when you have removed a long post.

 

[BobRyan]

“During the Dark Ages (A.D. 500-1500),
Rome burned Bibles along with their owners.”
-The Baptist Pillar
CANADA’S ONLY TRUE BAPTIST PAPER
Published by Bible Baptist Church

 

[Goatee]

Except that it is on your list of prohibited books and was burned in the dark ages. .... except for that...

How many "other" denominations can claim that distinction?



Was that yet another "Answer" to historical fact that does not suit your preference??

Granted - you appear to have an endless supply of that sort of "answer". No one questions that.

meanwhile - for the "rest of us" there is "actual history"
=================================

Roman Catholic "Church" Prohibited Bible Reading

The following is excerpted from an article by David Cloud entitled, "The KJV and the Latin Vulgate".

The Council of Trent (1545-1564) placed the Bible on its list of prohibited books, and forbade any person to read the Bible without a license from a Roman Catholic bishop or inquisitor.

The Council added these words: "That if any one shall dare to read or keep in his possession that book, without such a license, he shall not receive absolution till he has given it up to his ordinary."

Pope Pius VII (1800-1823) denounced the Bible Society and expressed shock at the circulation of the Scriptures. Pius VII said, "It is evidence from experience, that the holy Scriptures, when circulated in the vulgar tongue, have, through the temerity of men, produced more harm than benefit."

Pope Leo XII called the Protestant Bible the "Gospel of the Devil" in an encyclical letter of 1824. Pope Gregory XVI (1831-1846) railed "against the publication, distribution, reading, and possession of books of the holy Scriptures translated into the vulgar tongue." Pope Leo XII, in January 1850, condemned the Bible Societies and admitted the fact that the distribution of Scripture has "long been condemned by the holy chair."

Humans make mistakes. The Holy Spirit is still with the CC and has continued to guide it through its stormy past buddy

 

[Goatee]

“During the Dark Ages (A.D. 500-1500),
Rome burned Bibles along with their owners.”
-The Baptist Pillar
CANADA’S ONLY TRUE BAPTIST PAPER
Published by Bible Baptist Church

Waw! The CC had evil in its ranks? I never knew that!

Does 'Rome' still do those things?

Pope is not infallible as has been pointed out again and again and again! They are human (Except for the murderous ones!)

 

[BobRyan]

The RCC admits this in her own Laws :

“Canon 14. We prohibit also that the laity should
not be permitted to have the books of the Old or
New Testament; we most strictly forbid their having
any translation of these books.”

– The Church Council of Toulouse 1229 AD
Source: Heresy and Authority in Medieval Europe,
Scolar Press, London, England
copyright 1980 by Edward Peters,
ISBN 0-85967-621-8, pp. 194-195

The Council of Tarragona of 1234,
in its second canon, ruled that:

“No one may possess the books of the Old
and New Testaments, and if anyone possesses
them he must turn them over to the local bishop
within eight days, so that they may be burned…”
– The Church Council of Tarragona 1234 AD;
2nd Cannon – Source : D. Lortsch,
Historie de la Bible en France, 1910, p.14.

“Opened on Thursday alongside the Inquisition
archives was the infamous Index of Forbidden Books,
which Roman Catholics were forbidden to read
or possess on pain of excommunication. They showed
that even “the Bible” was once on the blacklist.
Translations of the holy book ended up on the bonfires
along with other “heretical” works…The Index
of Forbidden Books and all excommunications relating
to it were officially abolished in 1966.

The Inquisition itself was established by Pope Gregory IX in 1233….”
-Vatican archives reveal Bible was once banned book
By Jude Webber
ROME, Jan 22, 1998 (Reuters)



“Canon 14. We prohibit also that the laity should be
permitted to have the books of the Old or New Testament;
…we most strictly forbid their having any translation
of these books.”

– ITEM #2 COUNCIL OF TOULOUSE – 1229 A.D.
Heresy and Authority in Medieval Europe,
Edited with an introduction by Edward Peters,
Scolar Press, London, copyright 1980
by Edward Peters, ISBN 0-85967-621-8, pp. 194-195
–After the death of Innocent III, the Synod of Toulouse
directed in 1229 its fourteenth canon against the misuse
of Sacred Scripture on the part of the athari:
“prohibemus, ne libros Veteris et Novi Testamenti
laicis permittatur habere”
(Hefele, “Concilgesch”, Freiburg, 1863, V, 875).

ITEM #3 THE COUNCIL OF TARRAGONA – 1234 A.D.
The Council of Tarragona of 1234, in its second canon,
ruled that:
“No one may possess the books of the Old and New
Testaments in the Romance language, and if anyone
possesses them he must turn them over to the local
bishop within eight days after promulgation of
this decree, so that they may be burned….”
– D. Lortsch, Historie de la Bible en France, 1910, p.14.

https://romecorruptedchristianity.w.../a-time-when-the-bible-was-banned-and-burned/

 

[BobRyan]

Humans make mistakes

Ahh so then you agree with the rest of us that Catholics are in fact "humans" and not infallible.

 

[Goatee]

The RCC admits this in her own Laws :

“Canon 14. We prohibit also that the laity should
not be permitted to have the books of the Old or
New Testament; we most strictly forbid their having
any translation of these books.”

– The Church Council of Toulouse 1229 AD
Source: Heresy and Authority in Medieval Europe,
Scolar Press, London, England
copyright 1980 by Edward Peters,
ISBN 0-85967-621-8, pp. 194-195

The Council of Tarragona of 1234,
in its second canon, ruled that:

“No one may possess the books of the Old
and New Testaments, and if anyone possesses
them he must turn them over to the local bishop
within eight days, so that they may be burned…”
– The Church Council of Tarragona 1234 AD;
2nd Cannon – Source : D. Lortsch,
Historie de la Bible en France, 1910, p.14.

“Opened on Thursday alongside the Inquisition
archives was the infamous Index of Forbidden Books,
which Roman Catholics were forbidden to read
or possess on pain of excommunication. They showed
that even “the Bible” was once on the blacklist.
Translations of the holy book ended up on the bonfires
along with other “heretical” works…The Index
of Forbidden Books and all excommunications relating
to it were officially abolished in 1966.

The Inquisition itself was established by Pope Gregory IX in 1233….”
-Vatican archives reveal Bible was once banned book
By Jude Webber
ROME, Jan 22, 1998 (Reuters)



“Canon 14. We prohibit also that the laity should be
permitted to have the books of the Old or New Testament;
…we most strictly forbid their having any translation
of these books.”

– ITEM #2 COUNCIL OF TOULOUSE – 1229 A.D.
Heresy and Authority in Medieval Europe,
Edited with an introduction by Edward Peters,
Scolar Press, London, copyright 1980
by Edward Peters, ISBN 0-85967-621-8, pp. 194-195
–After the death of Innocent III, the Synod of Toulouse
directed in 1229 its fourteenth canon against the misuse
of Sacred Scripture on the part of the athari:
“prohibemus, ne libros Veteris et Novi Testamenti
laicis permittatur habere”
(Hefele, “Concilgesch”, Freiburg, 1863, V, 875).

ITEM #3 THE COUNCIL OF TARRAGONA – 1234 A.D.
The Council of Tarragona of 1234, in its second canon,
ruled that:
“No one may possess the books of the Old and New
Testaments in the Romance language, and if anyone
possesses them he must turn them over to the local
bishop within eight days after promulgation of
this decree, so that they may be burned….”
– D. Lortsch, Historie de la Bible en France, 1910, p.14.

https://romecorruptedchristianity.w.../a-time-when-the-bible-was-banned-and-burned/

lol............Bit out of date

 

[Goatee]

Ahh so then you agree with the rest of us that Catholics are in fact "humans" and not infallible.

Not one Catholic would say they or the Pope is infallible

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/papal-infallibility

 

[BobRyan]

Waw! The CC had evil in its ranks? I never knew that!

Does 'Rome' still do those things?

Pope is not infallible as has been pointed out again and again and again! They are human (Except for the murderous ones!)

Infallibility is still to this day claimed both for the Pope speaking ex cathedra - and for all the ecumenical councils. As we both know.