Has the Catholic Church become the church that Jesus wanted or not?

[Goatee]

So let's talk about that for a moment:

What is the 'usual and customary' donation for a wedding? In my parish (I asked around bc there are zero written 'rules'), it's $50US. For a funeral? $25. For a mass to be said? $5. The base salary for a priest (one who is not part of an order that takes an additional vow of poverty) is....wait for it... $22,500. Who again is getting wealthy? How many weddings would one have to perform to get rich? Even if a priest performed a wedding and a funeral and several masses each day, they still make less than a bartender!

When we factor in that a priest living on-site at a parish would not have to pay for lodging, and possibly most food, health insurance, etc. $22,500 actually becomes more than enough to purchase a car, maybe even a nice new one. Antletems, are we seriously going to throw down this level of scrutiny on a single man who works his only job at the parish (priests can't have a part time job either; are we going to argue that they should be allowed to be financial traders on Wall Street too?), and how he spends the little bit of money that he does make?

This argument has taken a turn towards the ridiculous...a well know (as in truly world renowned) Presbyterian minister lives nearby me in a very well to do neighborhood, is married with children, and his church provided this house to him...free of charge. I can say this with confidence because my FIL is a deacon in this church...yet no one is calling for him to stop spending his money on private educations for his children or to stop spending his salary (well over $150,000/year, not counting his $ from numerous books and speaking engagements) on a car for his wife...yet this is exactly the type of judgment that you seem to want to pass upon your own priests...

I can also tell you that my uncle is a non-ordered priest, who made the choice to drive the same Volvo for over 25 years and instead chose to put his money towards a retirement that would allow him to ski...should we judge him for this choice, or did he earn the right to spend what little money he made as he wishes?

You say this isn't a stumbling block for you, but it appears to be. If I am wrong, please forgive me.
If I am right that you do have a problem with priests spending in a way that you do not approve of, I might suggest that you search for a nearby parish where the priests have taken a vow of poverty as this might alleviate you of the near occasion of the sin of judgement. There are several near me and I am sure there is at least one near enough to you.

Ok. Enough. Unless you would welcome the same level of spending scrutiny upon yourself...otherwise, this rabbit hole could go very deep for all of us : 'why do you spend money of buying Jiff brand peanut butter at the supermarket? Don't you know that you could buy the store brand and give the difference in cost to the poor?'

I will ask again: do you have a stumbling block to remaining Catholic? We would truly like to help if you do. And I pray that you truly believe that we do want to help. The Catholic Faith is absolutely beautiful and I believe that while she has faults due to the sins of the people within her, She is still exactly The Chuch that Jesus desires.

Peace in Christ
Hawkiz

Pope Francis thinks there is a problem on clergy spending. Did you notice the link i posted? I rest my case on that one as he is supposed to be the top guy and if he has noticed how bad it has got then it must be serious!

 

[Hawkiz]

Pope Francis thinks there is a problem on clergy spending. Did you notice the link i posted? I rest my case on that one as he is supposed to be the top guy and if he has noticed how bad it has got then it must be serious!

Then perhaps we should trust Pope Francis to deal with it and champion him as a leader who gets your concern in this area rather than make this a reason to leave the Church over? You listed this as a reason that you are doubting. I responded that rather than doubt your faith that the Chuch has remained true, you seek ways to alivieate your doubts; to stop going to a parish where you think the priests are spending inappropriately. A reasonable solution if that is the biggest beef you have. You can still help to orchestrate a change in spending habits if they bother you from afar. It is still possible that YOU be a shining example of you you believe others should spend their money...and you can do so without being critical of how others spend. Let's take again your example of your parish priests (I believe you mentioned 2?) who seem to be constantly in new cars. Do you know for certain that they spent their personal money on them? (I ask because I know of a local car dealership who donates cars to local parishes; they are all new, and they get a new ride every year). This car dealer does so for the explicit purpose of donating to the diocese so that priests and nuns in the area do not have to buy these things...I offer that only as a possible explanation, not a definitive argument.

Please continue to share what else is causing you to doubt that the Catholic Church has continued to hold true to what Christ would want for Her.

Peace in ChristHawkiz

 

[Erose]

We all are sinners my dear friend. No escaping that. Those lists have been passed by unless you have not noticed? I did state that i was ok with with pushing the list to one side as i only had a few issues myself.

I did pick one issue from that list though as mentioned above somewhere.

Considering that you don't remember what that issue was, speaks volumes.

Deal with my guilt? lol Really?

Guess you are sin free and a perfect specimen of the human race. Good for you. I am glad you are perfect.

No, I'm a sinner, and the worse one at that. What I don't do is blame the Church for me being a sinner. My guilt is my own, and all the Church has done for me is help me deal with it. Perhaps you can learn from that.

Its a pity you are not more 'Christian' in your words.

Considering that this is coming from someone, who has decided to become quite insulting...

Look, you are the one that started this thread, not I. You want answers, that is my answer to you. I see a man full of guilt looking for someone else to blame. That is what I see. Or you are a man who likes to play games, and see how many people you can lead around the rosie. Either way you got things to deal with, and since you obviously don't like me much, I will move on.

 

[Goatee]

Then perhaps we should trust Pope Francis to deal with it and champion him as a leader who gets your concern in this area rather than make this a reason to leave the Church over? You listed this as a reason that you are doubting. I responded that rather than doubt your faith that the Chuch has remained true, you seek ways to alivieate your doubts; to stop going to a parish where you think the priests are spending inappropriately. A reasonable solution if that is the biggest beef you have. You can still help to orchestrate a change in spending habits if they bother you from afar. It is still possible that YOU be a shining example of you you believe others should spend their money...and you can do so without being critical of how others spend. Let's take again your example of your parish priests (I believe you mentioned 2?) who seem to be constantly in new cars. Do you know for certain that they spent their personal money on them? (I ask because I know of a local car dealership who donates cars to local parishes; they are all new, and they get a new ride every year). This car dealer does so for the explicit purpose of donating to the diocese so that priests and nuns in the area do not have to buy these things...I offer that only as a possible explanation, not a definitive argument.

Please continue to share what else is causing you to doubt that the Catholic Church has continued to hold true to what Christ would want for Her.

Peace in ChristHawkiz

This is not such a concern that i would leave the Catholic church. In fact, if you read my opening post, nowhere have i stated i would leave the Catholic church!

I was asking if the Catholic church had become 'The' church that Jesus wanted? So, its not just about me but about how the church has evolved. Has it stayed true to Jesus's teachings. Does Jesus sit dismayed at how the church has turned out? Is he disgusted by the amount of people it had murdered all those years ago? Has it turned into an ugly monster? Maybe even the 'harlot of babylon?' These are questions that not only i ask.

 

[Goatee]

Considering that you don't remember what that issue was, speaks volumes.

No, I'm a sinner, and the worse one at that. What I don't do is blame the Church for me being a sinner. My guilt is my own, and all the Church has done for me is help me deal with it. Perhaps you can learn from that.

Considering that this is coming from someone, who has decided to become quite insulting...

Look, you are the one that started this thread, not I. You want answers, that is my answer to you. I see a man full of guilt looking for someone else to blame. That is what I see. Or you are a man who likes to play games, and see how many people you can lead around the rosie. Either way you got things to deal with, and since you obviously don't like me much, I will move on.

Dont remember?! You didn't see me write about indulgences? Were you sleeping then?

Where have i blamed the church for me being a sinner? Where? Blimey, you do have it in for me my dear friend.

The church helped me massively when i lost both my parents. So, please dont assume things that you dont know. So un Christian of you buddy.

Me insulting? Where and how?

I am full of guilt for my sins, yes. You are the only person in this thread to get their dagger out. I have not pointed blame at anyone or the church for how i am or who i am. All i have done is started a thread asking if the Catholic church has turned out the way Jesus would have wanted! You are the one who has gone personal with a few un-generous posts towards me.

Try not to make personal attacks against me because i am searching for the truth.

God bless you my dear friend in Christ.

 

[Judahs_Lion]

Interesting question.

God calls those who will understand his message. I don't think any denomination is that which Jesus wanted.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Go ahead and mock, but how much more so would a married priest be expected to toe the Church's line and not use contraception (I said fully aware that this is another topic for another thread )?

How much scandal would it bring to the Church if a priest was seen in line at Walgreens with condoms in his cart?

How many more 'cafeteria Christians' would such a scandal produce?

There remains real and purposeful value in a celibate priesthood.

Peace in Christ
Hawkiz

There was no mocking there, it was a joke.

 

[topcare]

When a mass is said for a relative etc it is 'not' a separate mass. The relatives name is just added for the mass chosen or most convenient! Funerals are quite different.

Read again that is what I said. Now if the person wants to give the Priest a donation than that is up to them. Why are you being so hateful to Traditional Churches?

 

[Goatee]

Read again that is what I said. Now if the person wants to give the Priest a donation than that is up to them. Why are you being so hateful to Traditional Churches? Is it because of your marriage going down and you blame God?

Hateful? Where did you get that from?

I stated that in my diocese we have been told that we 'have' to give an offering in the envelope when requesting a mass for a deceased relative. Where do you get your view on my personal life problems as being the blame of God? Are you one of the people on the Catholic forums that causes waves and unrest?

Please, try not to get personal and have digs at my private life. I love God and would die for him in a blink of an eye. Any issues i have in life i attribute to my own wickedness and not of Gods doing!!

 

[civilwarbuff]

Read again that is what I said. Now if the person wants to give the Priest a donation than that is up to them. Why are you being so hateful to Traditional Churches? Is it because of your marriage going down and you blame God?

That was a very low comment.....

 

[Goatee]

That was a very low comment.....

I have reported him

 

[topcare]

Hateful? Where did you get that from?

From all your post there has to be a reason for it.

I stated that in my diocese we have been told that we 'have' to give an offering in the envelope when requesting a mass for a deceased relative.

So alll you want is something handed to you, the Priest has to make a living to.

Are you one of the people on the Catholic forums that causes waves and unrest?

I am not Catholic. You see I was Catholic and never hated the Church you say your Catholic and yet I see hatred drip from your questions and when things get uncomfortable for you, you resort to the tactics you just used on me.

 

[topcare]

That was a very low comment.....

Well there has to a reason for the hatred.

 

[topcare]

I have reported him

I should report you for the personal attack and accusing me of wrongful things

 

[Goatee]

From all your post there has to be a reason for it.



So alll you want is something handed to you, the Priest has to make a living to.


I am not Catholic. You see I was Catholic and never hated the Church you say your Catholic and yet I see hatred drip from your questions and when things get uncomfortable for you, you resort to the tactics you just used on me.

I stated why i started this thread.

I am not on about a priests living, only mass intentions. These dont contribute to 'my' priests living as he told me that. Others use it for other reasons. No hatred there, just curiosity.

I dont hate the Catholic church! I am searching, seeking out truths. You have put your own personal stamp on what i have posted!

 

[Goatee]

Well there has to a reason for the hatred.

There is no hatred. How could there be?

 

[Goatee]

I should report you for the personal attack and accusing me of wrongful things

Personal attack? Where?

 

[topcare]

I stated why i started this thread.

I am not on about a priests living, only mass intentions. These dont contribute to 'my' priests living as he told me that. Others use it for other reasons. No hatred there, just curiosity.

I dont hate the Catholic church! I am searching, seeking out truths. You have put your own personal stamp on what i have posted!

Another attack on me, I have not put my "own personal stamp" on anything.

 

[Goatee]

Another attack on me, I have not put my "own personal stamp" on anything.

You have as you have accused me of hatred towards the Catholic church of which is not true!

 

[civilwarbuff]

Might I suggest we go back to the OP. If find this an interesting thread. As a protestant the RCC is usually presented to the world as a monolithic rock wall with no dissension or different beliefs and interpretation of doctrine, rules, traditions etc. I learn a lot from threads like this......I know, I am being selfish.