Has holiness become a dirty word in our churches?

[theologyandfishing]

Thank you for your encouraging post. I would like to take this opportunity to clarify what I mean (and do not mean) about walking without sinning.

It does not mean "perfect", meaning there is no more changes to be made. It is not a state of being we "arrive at". It is a walk, continually abiding in Jesus. The truth is, true growth in grace will always continue, but as the years pass, we will be more and more laden down with spiritual fruits, characteristics of Christ in us coming to the surface.

We must get away from the "outside in" method of holiness whereby the Pharisees stumbled. It leads inevitably to legalism. It is death. In truth the vast majority of the church had fallen into this error, working on outer visible sins, and in essence trying to grow from fleshly men to new natured men. It simply does not work. After years, even decades of following this method, it should have dawned on us long ago that at th rate we are going, we will look remarkably like we did when we started, just more outwardly "religious". Our sins will be those hard to see one on the surface as we try to make a fair show in the flesh, but the self ruling heart is still firmly on the throne. And it will not fool God.

What we Ned to be awakened to in "inside-out Christianity". When a man obeys God and agrees with Him that when Christ died, he died, and when Christ came up new, so did he (the two things we must know as fact in Romans 6) and then ACTS on it by reckoning he myself as dead, confessing that deep in his inner being, he is no more fleshly nstured but a new man, it it then our new nature that has always been there is released. Finally, real progression begins!

Look. We will still look like we did the minute before our reckoning ourselves dead. Habits we had , we will still have. If a man was prone to anger, a situation arises and he may still get angry. The Spirit of God inside will be faithful to immediately convict him, and if he then lets it go, because now he can, he has not sinned! (Be ye angry and sin not. Let not th sun go down on your anger.) Now if after conviction, he holds onto his grudge, NOW he has sinned. Time for some repentance.

Walking without sinning is simply always saying yes to the Holy Spirit. No rules. It is the Holy Spirit a RULING, praise God! Our outside may still be flawed, needing spiritual fruits to replace fleshly ones developed over a lifetime of practice, LOL. BUT, he can still reckon he is dead to sin, for in his core being, his heart, he is new. That is inside out Christianity, almost unheard of,in the modern church but that is soon to change. We are being awakened to truth that works, truth that sets free indeed.

When we look into a mirror, who do we see? If we look into the mirror and see the glory of God inside us, new men, AND continue therein, we are changed from glory to glory, inner holiness growing towards the surface. But if we look into the mirror and listen to satan's accusations, we forget what manner of man we were and we begin to live again like men in the flesh. The lesson. Let us not be forgetful hearers but doers of the word. And when the men came to Jesus and asked him that question " What must we DO that we might work the works of God? Do you remember what He said "Believe on Him whom He has sent."
.
Here is a huge lesson to learn. When Satan comes tempting or condemning, our minds do not hear him whisper "You are a lousy Christian". He whispers "I am a lousy Christian" and we hear it in a OUR voice, as if it is our thought. How cunning. So how do we defend against that? We raise our shield of faith that says "It is no more I that live but Christ who lives in me". We agree with God who tells us that we are no longer in the flesh but in the Spirit and that we owe the flesh a big fat nothing. Praise God. It drives Satan crazy, LOL.

Walking without willfully sinning is NOT perfection. It is simply avoidance of disobedience.... negatives. Positives have yet to be grown in us, and God promises to make them happen. And as we walk in this amazing faith, overcoming the world, the flesh and the devil by faith, standing fast in the faith, we will be amazed to see dormant buds of God's fruit in us start to swell and blossom. It will get to the point that the changes in us will be amazing, and the most amazed will be US! This works, guys, it really does.

So what happens if we slip? Not when, but if? People will stop me here and say "Bt if you are new, how can you sin? Easy. Our faith at the beginning is weak. But as we stand in faith and grow in faith and abide in Him, as we fight our good fight of faith, we become established in it. And since it is always according to your faith be it unto you, a man established in the faith will simply stop ALL sin. He can technically sin, but why? Who would want to after finally learning to abide in Him, and Him in us?

Ok, back to my point. IF we do fall back into a sin, we do not throw up our hands and say "Well, that didn't work." Nor do we deny the sin. We acknowledge it to our loving God. We repent of it and ask forgiveness. But there is one more thing we must...... MUST..... do. We must pick back up our shield of faith and reckon ourselves dead to sin and agree with God that we are new creatures nonetheless. Audacious faith, and it drives Satan crazy, LOL.

You see, he is not after just getting us to sin. He wsnts to pry our testimony out of our hearts and mouths. Why? Because a Christian walking in his new man is a dangerous thing to the kingdom of darkness. That man's joy, his peace, his singleness of eye is totally appealing to all who love th light and simply do not find it in Sunday go to meeting church. Right now it is one here, another there who are discovering with great joy how to walk pleasing to God always. We are beginning to wake up. But wait until we start popping like kernels of popcorn. The fields are ripe.

The church is a slumbering giant, but we are about to awake, arise, and put on strength. The real latter rain is about to begin. Multitudes of true believers have never been told who they really are. But there is a part of them, deep inside, just like you and your wife, dear brother, who long to be obedient, long to really love as God desires, and who are ready to give up the trying to be holy in their efforts, climb out of the boat, and walk on the water to Jesus.

The highway of holiness awaits us. It is for both the weak and the strong, and in that order!
In Revelations we are told that in the last days the saints would overcome the devil by the blood of the lamb AND the word of their testimony. We are being awakened to the second part of the gospel, hat aGod is looking for weak saints so desperate to please Her m that they will believe the unbelievable, that we have new natures that not only want to obey, but CAN obey, and do it with audacious joy. Man, I love yet hat word!

Be greatly blessed, dear brother. If I can be of help to you, you have but to ask.

Gideon

I can agree whole heartedly to this; and I knew exactly what you meant since I read your first post on the matter. As I said, God had been convicting me of this for years but being raised under OSAS I wrestled with it. I do have some questions that would be best asked privately though


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Gideons300]

I can agree whole heartedly to this; and I knew exactly what you meant since I read your first post on the matter. As I said, God had been convicting me of this for years but being raised under OSAS I wrestled with it. I do have some questions that would be best asked privately though


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Feel free to contact me with a PM. I will do whatever I can.

As to people wrestling to abandon the OSAS doctrine! most, knowing their inner fleshly propensities, think that if they give up OSAS, fear will return, right? Because who trusts themselves to follow God hard all the time and not slip back into at least a little sin. After all we are "only human", right?

But what if God actually can keep us from falling just like He promised to do, IF we trust Him to do so? Putting on our new nature after kicking our old nature into the garbage heap is not only full security, but full security with us guaranteed to always be pressing forward, always walking in obedience, always walking single eyed. It eliminates the possibility under the OSAS teaching.... actually the high probability.... that a man or woman will settle back into a false grace where little sins are "not a big deal", where they will find contentment without godliness, leading to Laodecian lukewarmness. And if the word Laodecia is mentioned, prepare for fur to fly.

I am trying to take no ones security away from them, nor fill them with fear. But, if someone is trusting what a preacher is telling them that regardless of if they sin, or even if they are trying to please God, that it is all good, they had better start with fear. I promise, they will not be left there. God has a walk for us that will blow us away... IF we want it more than all our personal treasures combined.

I hope you will contact me if you need any assistance.

Blessings,

Gids

 

[Si_monfaith]

So back to the question you seem bent on avoiding answering.

If a Christian falls into adultery, and then digs in his heels and stays there, refusing to repent, because he is not under law, it really is not sin at all, so his standing with God is fine and heaven awaits. Do you agree with this?

If so, then how is it possible that the letters to the churches were even written? Why would
God threaten to spew people out of His mouth? Why would James write to Christians and tell them they were spiritual adulterers and to "cleanse your hands, you sinners"? Your one track view forces us to ignore huge portions of scripture simply because it cannot be made to line up with the doctrine you espouse.

How is it even possible to turn grace into lasciviousness if lasciviousness is really not bad at all? Why would John write warning us "if we sin" if we cannot? It simply boggles my mind how Satan could worm his way into the heart of our faith..... grace.... and twist it to where we do not fear continuing in sin at all. How can our hearts be hardened by continuing in sin if we can't sin? How do you answer all of these obvious contradictions? Do you yourself not want to figure out these obvious issues you seem bent on ignoring?

Lord, open up eyes by opening up hearts.

Gideon

All those warnings were meant for those who did not renounce the kge.

Lust is caused by law (roman 7:5). So without accepting the truth that Jesus has set us free from the law by dying for us, all claims of living holy are just self righteous pretensions aimed at pleasing co-legalists.

 

[Alithis]

Love, and do what you will is not satanic. The emphasis is on love. But love is not a law in the strict sense of obligation, else it would not be love.

still he says .." thy will be done .. not my will be done .

do what you will is rebellion .

love .. does not rebel .love does not seek its own .. thus to love and do what YOU will is to -not love.

 

[Alithis]

All those warnings were meant for those who did not renounce the kge.

Lust is caused by law (roman 7:5). So without accepting the truth that Jesus has set us free from the law by dying for us, all claims of living holy are just self righteous pretensions aimed at pleasing co-legalists.

you really say some left of center things .
what law did adam and eve have when they looked upon the fruit and "desired it "?.. no law was given .so lust came via deception and lie - and without the law .
the law proved sin .
what you're actually talking about is sin consciousness .. being always conscious of sin draws your attention to it and with your mind always on it you are basically self tempting .. (albeit you can only be tempted by that which is already in your heart ) but the lord jesus gives us a new heart .. a new nature . my flesh desires things but the nature of chrsit within me does not desire what the flesh desires and thus i dont do it ,i do what the new nature of chrsit within wants to do . i dont ignore it and go sin,.i dont want to do that ,its not loving god if i do that and i love him .so i am free from sin and bound to God by love .i'm aware of God and i'm aware of love so my consciousness is on God and his love and so i am drawn to do the behaviour of godly love , not sin .
it is troubling when people can't grasp that those born of god . "dont WANT to sin " and you cant be tempted by something you simply DON'T WANT .

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

all claims of living holy

Did you see in the Bible
(Though, If you weren't 'looking' for it, or the Father didn't make it known,
I guess you might have read right through the New Testament (and Torah too/ Old Testament), and not seen)
that thousands of believers called and chosen by Yhwh in Jesus
lived holy lives ?
(particularly lived "IN UNION" with JESUS)

 

[Alithis]

Straight from the Bible actually !
"EVERYONE DID what was right in their own eyes"(No Righteousness, No Right Living, NOT what GOD WILL, total anarchy/ chaos/ SIN)

well exactly .. and they sinned because of it .. god did not tell them to do what was right in their own eyes ..its just stating that they did .. God instructed them saying IF YOU OBEY ..... and outlined the result of that and the consequence of disobeying .

 

[Alithis]

Did you see in the Bible
(Though, If you weren't 'looking' for it, or the Father didn't make it known,
I guess you might have read right through the New Testament (and Torah too/ Old Testament), and not seen)
that thousands of believers called and chosen by Yhwh in Jesus
lived holy lives ?
(particularly lived "IN UNION" with JESUS)

and are made partakers of his divine nature
and are made a new creation in the messiah Jesus .
and are made co heirs with the messiah
and are made more then conquerors...

all quite the opposite of what the unbeliever says when they say those despicable words ... "im just a sinner saved ".. your either saved or your just a sinner .. make up you minds .(ie - repent )

 

[Farine]

Discussing the new, divine nature from a distance is one thing.

I want to talk about the new, divine nature from within. I have it. Or more precisely, the New, Divine Nature has me.

A lot of the mystery that Paul is writing about makes a LOT more sense when it's your reality. So, with no further ado, allow me to make some observations.

There are two veils that infringe on our capacity to perceive and interact with God. One of the veils was ripped from top to bottom when Jesus was crucified. Now grace allowed mankind to have access to the Holy of Holies through faith. Fine, well and good.

Let me tell what it's like to BE in God's Intimate Space.
First of all, there are no shades of truth. There are no rationalizations, no convenient half-truths, no omitting anything pertinent to the matter. There is only TRUTH. Most people do not have much of an appetite for truth so it's not surprising to me how many people squirm to avoid that experience.

There is immense love. Let's get to business about what that kind of love IS. Love does not leave the Beloved where it was, wretched and miserable. Love flows into the ruined places and addresses what is really going on in the life. That's another reason why God's Presence is so terrifying. Yes, God really does get all up in your business. Hey! Don't say you weren't advised.

I mentioned two veils. The other veil is on our side. Natural humanity cannot inherit, cannot perceive, cannot surrender (without help). If we stay with our human experience, our earthly 'dashboard', then we will get caught up with humanity's preoccupation with what can be known through the senses. You experience God through your spirit. Most people are not even aware that they have a 'spirit'. WHen God wakes you up in your life, this new YOU is very aware.. and able to access knowledge and power and love.

Yes, the power of God can shift circumstances. My husband was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer and 4 and 1/2 years later he's cancer free. More importantly the power of God makes Sons and Daughters. I have a lot to say about the power of God as it has been shown to me and through me. MORE IMPORTANT than any benefit is the relationship with GOD.. The GIVER is more, vastly more important than His Gifts.

 

[Si_monfaith]

I have been very blessed and disturbed by this whole thread.

One one hand, I grew up hearing OSAS however, what I've read in the Bible and what I've felt a deep conviction about is quite different.
I have been blessed to read Gideon's post as I have been "fighting off" the "legalistic" words that keep ringing in my ears. I am in no way perfect! Far from it! But I know what that my Lord is Holy, and has called me to live in holiness. I have been silently talking about this with my wife and we agree but can't be said loud in our community without being tagged legalist or "unaware of grace"

Thank you Gideon and others. You have been used by God to confirm what I have been wrestling with for years.

On another note, I am disturbed to read comments from a false gospel
Looking to appease itching ears.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Lord is holy. So was he wrong to have created man naked?

 

[Si_monfaith]

you really say some left of center things .
what law did adam and eve have when they looked upon the fruit and "desired it "?.. no law was given .so lust came via deception and lie - and without the law .
the law proved sin .
what you're actually talking about is sin consciousness .. being always conscious of sin draws your attention to it and with your mind always on it you are basically self tempting .. (albeit you can only be tempted by that which is already in your heart ) but the lord jesus gives us a new heart .. a new nature . my flesh desires things but the nature of chrsit within me does not desire what the flesh desires and thus i dont do it ,i do what the new nature of chrsit within wants to do . i dont ignore it and go sin,.i dont want to do that ,its not loving god if i do that and i love him .so i am free from sin and bound to God by love .i'm aware of God and i'm aware of love so my consciousness is on God and his love and so i am drawn to do the behaviour of godly love , not sin .
it is troubling when people can't grasp that those born of god . "dont WANT to sin " and you cant be tempted by something you simply DON'T WANT .

Roman 7:5 has to be read.

 

[Si_monfaith]

and are made partakers of his divine nature
and are made a new creation in the messiah Jesus .
and are made co heirs with the messiah
and are made more then conquerors...

all quite the opposite of what the unbeliever says when they say those despicable words ... "im just a sinner saved ".. your either saved or your just a sinner .. make up you minds .(ie - repent )

The divine nature in which God created man was being free of kge.

Do you have such a nature free of kge which brought curses & death to mankind?

 

[Si_monfaith]

Did you see in the Bible
(Though, If you weren't 'looking' for it, or the Father didn't make it known,
I guess you might have read right through the New Testament (and Torah too/ Old Testament), and not seen)
that thousands of believers called and chosen by Yhwh in Jesus
lived holy lives ?
(particularly lived "IN UNION" with JESUS)

Lord created man in state of holiness. What was that? They were free from knowledge of good & evil (kge).

They lost the holy state by choosing kge.

What is your state? Are you holy by being set free from kge in Christ?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I won't answer or discuss some things here because it's against the directives of this section of the forum.

 

[Gideons300]

Lord is holy. So was he wrong to have created man naked?

Brother, I am more than willing to discuss this topic with you, but to do so we must have dialogue. This is a deep and critically important topic, but you seem determined to talk only about law, nakedness and kge. I mean no disrespect in this. I simply cannot understand where you are coming from and where you are going if when questions are asked of you, you simply sidestep the issue brought up and revert to your trifecta of terms.

How can anyone benefit from what your are sharing if you are not willing to clarify when someone is confused and needs an answer to something they are perhaps mis-understanding?

You asked if I had a nature free from the knowledge of good and evil. I do, absolutely. It is the new nature God has for every single one of His children. I do not deserve it, but nine years ago, in complete and utter brokenness, God broke through. It is not because I was special or more spiritual. Just the opposite. But what was to me a curse, seeing myself as a truly wretched man in the flesh, became a well disguised blessing, for I was sick and needed the Great Physician to make me whole.... and knew it! I had finally arrived at the point that I had NO confidence in the flesh. I KNEW that it would take a miracle, and God gave it to me. It is a hard place to get to, but it is a blessed place when one finally arrives. Why? Because a broken, humbled, desperate man can truly believe. There is simply no other option for him. And praise a God, this blessed state is available to any who will fully yield and simply ask..... and by faith receive it.

Much of what you say, I agree with. What I struggle to understand is whether this is simply a "positional" theology where the actual possession and eventual display of it is manifested for others to see never seems to follow, or if you believe that by holding the position you sharei actually changes our outward behaviors as the seed of a new nature grows to the surface from the initial seed.

That s why I continue to seek your thoughts on the question of a Christian who falls into adultery, refuses to repent, continues in this behavior until death. Is adultery sin for this man? Is sin even possible for a Christian? Do you espouse that because Jesus gave us holy natures, in reality it is impossible for a believer to sin at all?

Answering these clearly would do wonders to help move this conversation along. If you can do so, it would be much appreciated. Either way, be blessed.

Gideon

 

[theologyandfishing]

Lord is holy. So was he wrong to have created man naked?

By that standard God is evil for creating the tree that gave us that knowledge is he not? It is not KGE that sets us apart from Him, it is the DECISION that was made to eat of that tree after He forbid it.

By your reasoning, technically God introduced sin (made them aware that there was something they could not do) by telling them not to eat it. Was this all a trick?

If you claim that KGE is what separates us from Him and we can live as we want without KGE then you are making God a liar and a deceiving entity.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Freedom Now]

Discussing the new, divine nature from a distance is one thing.

I want to talk about the new, divine nature from within. I have it. Or more precisely, the New, Divine Nature has me.

A lot of the mystery that Paul is writing about makes a LOT more sense when it's your reality. So, with no further ado, allow me to make some observations.

There are two veils that infringe on our capacity to perceive and interact with God. One of the veils was ripped from top to bottom when Jesus was crucified. Now grace allowed mankind to have access to the Holy of Holies through faith. Fine, well and good.

Let me tell what it's like to BE in God's Intimate Space.
First of all, there are no shades of truth. There are no rationalizations, no convenient half-truths, no omitting anything pertinent to the matter. There is only TRUTH. Most people do not have much of an appetite for truth so it's not surprising to me how many people squirm to avoid that experience.

There is immense love. Let's get to business about what that kind of love IS. Love does not leave the Beloved where it was, wretched and miserable. Love flows into the ruined places and addresses what is really going on in the life. That's another reason why God's Presence is so terrifying. Yes, God really does get all up in your business. Hey! Don't say you weren't advised.

I mentioned two veils. The other veil is on our side. Natural humanity cannot inherit, cannot perceive, cannot surrender (without help). If we stay with our human experience, our earthly 'dashboard', then we will get caught up with humanity's preoccupation with what can be known through the senses. You experience God through your spirit. Most people are not even aware that they have a 'spirit'. WHen God wakes you up in your life, this new YOU is very aware.. and able to access knowledge and power and love.

Yes, the power of God can shift circumstances. My husband was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer and 4 and 1/2 years later he's cancer free. More importantly the power of God makes Sons and Daughters. I have a lot to say about the power of God as it has been shown to me and through me. MORE IMPORTANT than any benefit is the relationship with GOD.. The GIVER is more, vastly more important than His Gifts.

That was a refreshing read.

Thank you

 

[Farine]

Texts from Saints who Wrote about the Presence of God

"I have risked the tedium of quotation that I might show by pointed example what I have set out to say, viz., that God is so vastly wonderful, so utterly and completely delightful that He can, without anything other than Himself, meet and overflow the deepest demands of our total nature, mysterious and deep as that nature is. Such worship as Faber knew (and he is but one of a great company which no man can number) can never come from a mere doctrinal knowledge of God. Hearts that are “fit to break” with love for the Godhead are those who have been in the Presence and have looked with opened eye upon the majesty of Deity.
A. W Tozer “ The Pursuit of God.. Chapter: Removing the Veil”

"Christian faith has appeared to many an easy thing; nay, not a few even reckon it among the social virtues, as it were; and this they do because they have not made proof of it experimentally, and have never tasted of what efficacy it is. For it is not possible for any man to write well about it, or to understand well what is rightly written, who has not at some time tasted of its spirit, under the pressure of tribulation; while he who has tasted of it, even to a very small extent, can never write, speak, think, or hear about it sufficiently. For it is a living fountain, springing up into eternal life, as Christ calls it in John iv.

Now, though I cannot boast of my abundance, and though I know how poorly I am furnished, yet I hope that, after having been vexed by various temptations, I have attained some little drop of faith, and that I can speak of this matter, if not with more elegance, certainly with more solidity, than those literal and too subtle disputants who have hitherto discoursed upon it without understanding their own words."
Martin Luther “Concerning Christian Liberty”

"But have we these words, just as He spoke them? This is the question of modern criticism, which refuses to take for granted what should, however, be taken for granted by all who believe in a revelation of the Son of God ;—namely, that His words cannot have fallen to the ground, cannot have dropped and been lost through the sieve of erring human composition. Yes, we possess that which He spake ! Not indeed in the letter of the verba ipsissima, but through the mediating witness of the Evangelists, elevated in the Spirit. Yet are they truly and essentially the ipsissima, as His teaching for the world and the Church. Thou shalt know them to be such, if the same Spirit, under whose influence the Gospels are written, shall explain to thee and illustrate their letter."
Dr. Rudolf Stier “The Words of the Lord Jesus: Preface”

“Remember: He WANTS your fellowship, and He has done everything possible to make it a reality. He has forgiven your sins, at the cost of His own dear Son. He has given you His Word, and the priceless privilege of prayer and worship.” Billy Graham "Hope for Each Day-Words of Wisdom and Faith"

“Belatedly I loved thee, O Beauty so ancient and so new, belatedly I loved thee. For see, thou wast within and I was without, and I sought thee out there. Unlovely, I rushed heedlessly among the lovely things thou hast made. Thou wast with me, but I was not with thee. These things kept me far from thee; even though they were not at all unless they were in thee. Thou didst call and cry aloud, and didst force open my deafness. Thou didst gleam and shine, and didst chase away my blindness. Thou didst breathe fragrant odors and I drew in my breath; and now I pant for thee. I tasted, and now I hunger and thirst. Thou didst touch me, and I burned for thy peace.” St. Augustine of Hippo “Confessions”

 

[Alithis]

Discussing the new, divine nature from a distance is one thing.

I want to talk about the new, divine nature from within. I have it. Or more precisely, the New, Divine Nature has me.

A lot of the mystery that Paul is writing about makes a LOT more sense when it's your reality. So, with no further ado, allow me to make some observations.

There are two veils that infringe on our capacity to perceive and interact with God. One of the veils was ripped from top to bottom when Jesus was crucified. Now grace allowed mankind to have access to the Holy of Holies through faith. Fine, well and good.

Let me tell what it's like to BE in God's Intimate Space.
First of all, there are no shades of truth. There are no rationalizations, no convenient half-truths, no omitting anything pertinent to the matter. There is only TRUTH. Most people do not have much of an appetite for truth so it's not surprising to me how many people squirm to avoid that experience.

There is immense love. Let's get to business about what that kind of love IS. Love does not leave the Beloved where it was, wretched and miserable. Love flows into the ruined places and addresses what is really going on in the life. That's another reason why God's Presence is so terrifying. Yes, God really does get all up in your business. Hey! Don't say you weren't advised.

I mentioned two veils. The other veil is on our side. Natural humanity cannot inherit, cannot perceive, cannot surrender (without help). If we stay with our human experience, our earthly 'dashboard', then we will get caught up with humanity's preoccupation with what can be known through the senses. You experience God through your spirit. Most people are not even aware that they have a 'spirit'. WHen God wakes you up in your life, this new YOU is very aware.. and able to access knowledge and power and love.

Yes, the power of God can shift circumstances. My husband was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer and 4 and 1/2 years later he's cancer free. More importantly the power of God makes Sons and Daughters. I have a lot to say about the power of God as it has been shown to me and through me. MORE IMPORTANT than any benefit is the relationship with GOD.. The GIVER is more, vastly more important than His Gifts.

i want to read this in more depth later .. one aspect missing (but i have only kim read it so far) .. mat be the death into christ's death through baptism .. meaning the old nature is already overcome this is what people need to realize .for then they can deal with false excuses they have been taught or given themselves .... --incomplete reply --

 

[faroukfarouk]

Texts from Saints who Wrote about the Presence of God

"I have risked the tedium of quotation that I might show by pointed example what I have set out to say, viz., that God is so vastly wonderful, so utterly and completely delightful that He can, without anything other than Himself, meet and overflow the deepest demands of our total nature, mysterious and deep as that nature is. Such worship as Faber knew (and he is but one of a great company which no man can number) can never come from a mere doctrinal knowledge of God. Hearts that are “fit to break” with love for the Godhead are those who have been in the Presence and have looked with opened eye upon the majesty of Deity.
A. W Tozer “ The Pursuit of God.. Chapter: Removing the Veil”

"Christian faith has appeared to many an easy thing; nay, not a few even reckon it among the social virtues, as it were; and this they do because they have not made proof of it experimentally, and have never tasted of what efficacy it is. For it is not possible for any man to write well about it, or to understand well what is rightly written, who has not at some time tasted of its spirit, under the pressure of tribulation; while he who has tasted of it, even to a very small extent, can never write, speak, think, or hear about it sufficiently. For it is a living fountain, springing up into eternal life, as Christ calls it in John iv.

Now, though I cannot boast of my abundance, and though I know how poorly I am furnished, yet I hope that, after having been vexed by various temptations, I have attained some little drop of faith, and that I can speak of this matter, if not with more elegance, certainly with more solidity, than those literal and too subtle disputants who have hitherto discoursed upon it without understanding their own words."
Martin Luther “Concerning Christian Liberty”

"But have we these words, just as He spoke them? This is the question of modern criticism, which refuses to take for granted what should, however, be taken for granted by all who believe in a revelation of the Son of God ;—namely, that His words cannot have fallen to the ground, cannot have dropped and been lost through the sieve of erring human composition. Yes, we possess that which He spake ! Not indeed in the letter of the verba ipsissima, but through the mediating witness of the Evangelists, elevated in the Spirit. Yet are they truly and essentially the ipsissima, as His teaching for the world and the Church. Thou shalt know them to be such, if the same Spirit, under whose influence the Gospels are written, shall explain to thee and illustrate their letter."
Dr. Rudolf Stier “The Words of the Lord Jesus: Preface”

“Remember: He WANTS your fellowship, and He has done everything possible to make it a reality. He has forgiven your sins, at the cost of His own dear Son. He has given you His Word, and the priceless privilege of prayer and worship.” Billy Graham "Hope for Each Day-Words of Wisdom and Faith"

“Belatedly I loved thee, O Beauty so ancient and so new, belatedly I loved thee. For see, thou wast within and I was without, and I sought thee out there. Unlovely, I rushed heedlessly among the lovely things thou hast made. Thou wast with me, but I was not with thee. These things kept me far from thee; even though they were not at all unless they were in thee. Thou didst call and cry aloud, and didst force open my deafness. Thou didst gleam and shine, and didst chase away my blindness. Thou didst breathe fragrant odors and I drew in my breath; and now I pant for thee. I tasted, and now I hunger and thirst. Thou didst touch me, and I burned for thy peace.” St. Augustine of Hippo “Confessions”

A W Tozer wrote some good books! He ministered in Toronto for some years.