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Simple answer....No.
A bit more info:
We might ask - from what are we saved? And even another question - from Whom are we saved? First of all, we are saved from the righteous judgment of God. God is loving, kind, and gracious, and He does not take pleasure in the death of the wicked (Ezekiel 18:23). But, He does judge, because He is the righteous and holy Judge, and He must punish the sinner. He cannot let rebellion against His Holy Law go unpunished. If He did, then how could He be just? Therefore, God's righteous judgment is upon all who break the Law: all who are sinners. To be saved, is to be saved from the righteous judgment of God. It means to be saved from the damning work of condemnation, that God will impose upon all who have not found forgiveness in Christ.
In John 3:16, the word believes in Greek is Pisteuo - Meaning to comply with, or to have faith (pistis) in.
Lexicographer J.H. Thayer noted that belief is “used especially of the faith by which a man embraces Jesus, i.e. a conviction, full of joyful trust, that Jesus is the Messiah — the divinely appointed author of eternal salvation in the kingdom of God, conjoined with obedience to Christ” (Greek-English Lexicon, T. & T. Clark, 1958, p. 511; emp. added).
James 2:19..is a bit more difficult, you can't really compare the faith of a human and a demon. Because Humans are redeemable thru have faith in Christ for their salvation. Demons cannot...they are irredeemable. Many scholars believe that the belief spoken of here is called "Dead Faith" and many just say it's that the demons know who God is and are smart enough to be afraid of Him. But for sure...it isn't the same as the belief in John 3:16.
First you must know that you are a sinner. Have you kept the commandments? Have you lied? If so then you are a liar And the punishment is the lake of fire.
Rev 21:8 But to the cowards, unbelievers, detestable persons, murderers, the sexually immoral, and those who practice magic spells,16 idol worshipers,17 and all those who lie, their place18 will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur.
Jesus said the following:
Matt 5:27-28
27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ 38 28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to desire her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
God sees all things and even knows our intentions. Many of us are guilty of this, and many have broke this law.
These are just two of the commandments and if you have broken one...you've broke them all. And therefore a sinner and it's the sin that sends us to Hell.
We must realize this, that we have sinned against God and only Against Him.
Read Psalms 51. You will see what God expects of us. To pray for repentance, then place our Trust in Christ to change our hearts, desires and to renew our minds.
The final words of Christ on the Cross were "It is finished". This was not a legal thing. This was a purchasing. When shop dealers and buyers would haggle over goods and they came to a final price to buy or sell. They would say "It is Finished" that meant..no more haggling no more deals. I have come to my final price to pay.
Christ paid the price for you and me.
It's likened to a man who was arrested for a crime. And He stands before the judge and is fined a huge amount for his crime. He doesn't have the money, he has no way to pay this price to get out of jail and tells the judge this, hoping for sympathy. To bad Judge, puts him away. Then the next morning, the jailer comes to his cell and tells him he is free to go.
the man ask, "what ya mean I'm free?" the jailer looks at him and says "Don't know, just know that someone came by and pay the fine for you and all you owed to others for the crime, charges were dropped and now your free."
Even the man is confused...because he knows He doesn't deserve this kindness..because He knows how guilty he is. But He goes His way, knowing that He has to do the right thing because someone paid the price for him.
Christ paid the fine for our sins. He carried our sins to the cross and cleansed them with His blood and carried them away with His death. Once you repent and put your trust in Him. Your sins are forgiven..not just the ones you've done lately...but ALL of them..to the first lie til now. He gives us mercy everyday. Something we don't deserve.
If all men got their just deserves from God...all men would be in Hell.
Answered. but will add this. No one knows how or where God is going to use those who repent and place their trust in Christ. There a thousands of stories of men and women who have done so and have seen miraculous changes overnight in their lives. But for everyone that believes he has a gift for them and with reading God's Word and prayer. Going to a good bible believing church and staying on that path with God that not many take. He will open the doors for you to find out just exactly what you will do.
No. We are not God. We can forgive people for things done against us or others. But we cannot forgive sins....We didn't pay the price for that. Christ did.
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All sin debt has been paid.
But that does not mean that someone's sins are forgiven.
When we are saved, Christ gives US HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS.
We are righteous through Christ who is our Advocate to the Father.
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I think this is wrong.
Saying God must punish the sinner is not really correct. What actually happens is sin separates God and man. God being righteous, just and holy cannot abide in sin. So mankind, being sinful must be cleansed of their sin to reside and be reconciled back to God.
Jesus is our Advocate wtih the Father because Jesus GIVES US His righteousness. He imputes His righteousness to us and He can do that because He conquered and overcame sin, through His living a life on earth and having no sin.
We are righteous and just and able to be reconciled to God because of Jesus imputing His righteousness to us and the Father is well pleased with the Son.
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I think the perspectives in this thread can be boiled down to one of the following:
1. Some people consider it a legal transaction which occurred when Jesus died—that is when the payment was made. But a person that does not yield to the Lord cannot experience that gift. God will not force a person to yield to him, even though he is forgiven.
2. Other people consider it a condition of God's heart, such that He knows the price has already been paid, but people are not forgiven by him until they genuinely believe in him.
I need to study Scripture to see if I can find verses that make it clear which interpretation is justified. I don't yet have verses off the top of my head. From what I understand at the moment, I conclude that Scripture backs up #1 and not #2. That is, at the point of salvation, the change is in us (we believe) rather than in God (he decides to forgive), because God had already decided to forgive when he sent Jesus to earth. Jesus' death then fulfilled the necessary legal requirement, but God's heart for us didn't change. God is love.
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bottomofsandal
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There is a question that needs to be asked...not my pov, but a common theological question.
Why does Jesus pay for the sins of a man in hell in addition to the man himself. Double payment.
The soul that sinneth it shall die, and the wages of sin is death. So the man gets punished in hell.
How to explain to a seeker why both the man and Jesus need be punished? Why 2 payments?
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Let's talk about how Jesus forgives sin and/or imputes righteousness
When we are saved we are justified. Justification is Jesus giving us His righteousness. Not that we are righteous, but that the blood of Jesus makes us righteous. He is our Advocate. He stands in our place.
This is a very simple scenario, but this is kindof like it.
The Father says that we must allocate for our sin --> Then Jesus steps in and says to the Father that this one is my Child, my sacrifice paid the sin debt for this one. It is not our righteousness the Father accepts, it is His Son's righteousness as He stands in our place.
That is what it means that Jesus Christ is our Advocate to the Father. Why He is the ONLY way to the Father.
1 John 2:1-2
1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you will not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate before the Father — Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2 He Himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours alone, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Justification is the legal act where God declares the sinner to be innocent of his or her sins. It is not that the sinner is now sinless, but that he is "declared" sinless. This declaration of righteousness is being justified before God. This justification is based on the shed blood of Jesus, " . . . having now been justified by His blood . . . " (Rom. 5:9) where Jesus was crucified, died, was buried, and rose again (1 Cor. 15:1-4). God imputed (reckoned to our account) the righteousness of Christ at the same time our sins were imputed to Christ when he was on the cross. That is why it says in 1 Pet. 2:24, "and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed." Also, 2 Cor. 5:21 says, "He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." Additionally, we are justified by faith (Rom. 5:1) apart from works of the Law (Rom. 3:28).
To be saved means that God has delivered us (saved us) from His righteous wrathful judgment due us because of our sins against Him. It means that we will not be judged for our sins and be therefore sentenced to eternal damnation. To be saved means that we are justified before God. Only Christians are saved. Only Christians are justified. The issue at hand is whether or not this salvation, this justification, is attained by faith or by faith and something else.
When we are saved we are justified. Justification is Jesus giving us His righteousness. Not that we are righteous, but that the blood of Jesus makes us righteous. He is our Advocate. He stands in our place.
This is a very simple scenario, but this is kindof like it.
The Father says that we must allocate for our sin --> Then Jesus steps in and says to the Father that this one is my Child, my sacrifice paid the sin debt for this one. It is not our righteousness the Father accepts, it is His Son's righteousness as He stands in our place.
That is what it means that Jesus Christ is our Advocate to the Father. Why He is the ONLY way to the Father.
1 John 2:1-2
1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you will not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate before the Father — Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2 He Himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours alone, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Justification is the legal act where God declares the sinner to be innocent of his or her sins. It is not that the sinner is now sinless, but that he is "declared" sinless. This declaration of righteousness is being justified before God. This justification is based on the shed blood of Jesus, " . . . having now been justified by His blood . . . " (Rom. 5:9) where Jesus was crucified, died, was buried, and rose again (1 Cor. 15:1-4). God imputed (reckoned to our account) the righteousness of Christ at the same time our sins were imputed to Christ when he was on the cross. That is why it says in 1 Pet. 2:24, "and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed." Also, 2 Cor. 5:21 says, "He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." Additionally, we are justified by faith (Rom. 5:1) apart from works of the Law (Rom. 3:28).
To be saved means that God has delivered us (saved us) from His righteous wrathful judgment due us because of our sins against Him. It means that we will not be judged for our sins and be therefore sentenced to eternal damnation. To be saved means that we are justified before God. Only Christians are saved. Only Christians are justified. The issue at hand is whether or not this salvation, this justification, is attained by faith or by faith and something else.
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yeshuaslavejeff
simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
TODAY?
Pertinent : If a man does not turn to YHWH by faith in Y'SHUA, but he instead CONTINUES serving demons, and refuses to stop serving demons,
are they forgiven ?
Answer: No.
Pertinent : If a man does not turn to YHWH by faith in Y'SHUA, but he instead CONTINUES serving demons, and refuses to stop serving demons,
are they forgiven ?
Answer: No.
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It's amazing how something so simple can be so complicated, heh. I agree with ToBeLoved, but since this is complicated, I will explain what I can of it from another direction. Sorry it is still hard to understand; it is late and it takes me a dozen rewrites to get something the best I can make it. I can always add to it or make corrections. Since this is a long post, I will state the conclusion first:
Even though Jesus paid for our sins, we still have to agree that God has authority over us—to give us a rebirth to save us from the consequences of having a sinful nature. If we don't agree, we are refusing to accept Jesus' payment for ourselves and are not born again. For those that believe Jesus is real, whether he is your Lord or not is the issue on Judgment Day. (He's not for those that don't believe he is real.) We end up paying for our sins because nothing changed our sinful nature.
God is love and God is justice. A part of what that means is that he is the source of all love and justice. That is, apart from God an experience of love or justice is not possible. (Fortunately he has a kind of presence on earth.) Because of his great love, he desires to save each of us in a way that is just—that is, according to his nature, which he cannot deny (2 Timothy 2:13).
The Biblical definition of life is existence in a morally right relationship with God (e.g., Garden of Eden). This is a kind of spiritual unity with God, which applies both in this life and after our bodies die. By definition it is not possible to experience life apart from God. (He is sustaining our lives right now.)
Biblical death is existence apart from God, which applies both in this life and after our bodies die.
A sin is an act of rejecting God as the one who has the right to define what is moral and what is not and hold us accountable for being moral. (i.e., sinning is a form of rejecting God as our God)
Trusting him from the heart is a condition that results in actions that demonstrate our choice for Jesus to be our Lord and to accept unity with God.
There is no way for sin to be undone, or "cleansed." Whatever is tainted with sin is dead permanently (see above definition of death). Trying to undo a sin is like trying to undo something done yesterday. It's too late.
All of Adam's descendants have a tainted, sinful nature. We are all born that way—separated from God ("dead"). It's not God's fault. It is the consequence of the nature of sin (Adam sinned and scripturally we take his side that it was OK whenever we sin). What is natural is for our bodies to die and then for our spirits to continue to exist separated from God (also known as going to hell and/or the lake of fire). Our spirits are real, and cannot exist "nowhere." Heaven and hell are real places (and Scripture confirms it over and over; consider a study of God's just nature). Annihilation would mean that God's justice was not accomplished as well as mean God undid something he did (which he never does, because everything he does is good and perfect).
Unlike us, Jesus was not born with a sinful nature—he didn't inherit his nature from a sin-tainted father, but rather from his perfectly untainted Father. As a human (son of Mary) and as one who existed before Adam (son of God) he had authority over all humans. In other words, by choosing to be born from Mary, Jesus took responsibility for all humans. When he (the head of the human race) died he paid the required penalty for sin for all of us required by God's just nature. However, it was paid for through his bodily death, because as God, his spirit was untainted (since God never sinned). So at that point, it was an acceptable payment for all sin by humans according to God's nature (described by the passages about kinsman-redeemers).
But that is not everything that is pertinent. The above information is mostly a description of how the spiritual realm operates. It's like the spiritual equivalent of the laws of gravity and thermodynamics. They are in operation no matter what a person chooses or does. However, two other things matter:
1. Even though God has forgiven us, our spirits are still tainted with the sinful nature we were born with. As I said above, something tainted with sin can't be cleansed. It can only die. That means we still wouldn't be able to withstand God's presence. The only place we could go is somewhere without God's presence.
2. Both God and us have power and a free will (although ours is hindered by sin), and as such have the ability to alter the natural course of things.
Under certain conditions God grants those who are forgiven through Jesus' death a spiritual rebirth "in Christ." Our spirits are the real us and our bodies are like temporary clothing (or "tents"). It is a rebirth into a (very real) kind of unity with God. We are made alive in Christ to rectify our huge problem of our spirits being dead to God. The conditions required are that we believe he is real, that we choose to accept him as our God and Lord, and accept Jesus' payment for our sins. It's a package we call salvation through Christ.
When we are saved, we (our tainted spirits) participate in Jesus' death. Because we are reborn in Christ, we experience (a delayed) resurrection along with him. The pre-reborn us is gone and we are a new, sinless creation in Christ (in spirit, but we are still tainted in the physical realm and there is a battle to behave like our new, real self who is now in unity with God).
See the conclusion in the 2nd paragraph near the top.
Even though Jesus paid for our sins, we still have to agree that God has authority over us—to give us a rebirth to save us from the consequences of having a sinful nature. If we don't agree, we are refusing to accept Jesus' payment for ourselves and are not born again. For those that believe Jesus is real, whether he is your Lord or not is the issue on Judgment Day. (He's not for those that don't believe he is real.) We end up paying for our sins because nothing changed our sinful nature.
God is love and God is justice. A part of what that means is that he is the source of all love and justice. That is, apart from God an experience of love or justice is not possible. (Fortunately he has a kind of presence on earth.) Because of his great love, he desires to save each of us in a way that is just—that is, according to his nature, which he cannot deny (2 Timothy 2:13).
The Biblical definition of life is existence in a morally right relationship with God (e.g., Garden of Eden). This is a kind of spiritual unity with God, which applies both in this life and after our bodies die. By definition it is not possible to experience life apart from God. (He is sustaining our lives right now.)
Biblical death is existence apart from God, which applies both in this life and after our bodies die.
A sin is an act of rejecting God as the one who has the right to define what is moral and what is not and hold us accountable for being moral. (i.e., sinning is a form of rejecting God as our God)
Trusting him from the heart is a condition that results in actions that demonstrate our choice for Jesus to be our Lord and to accept unity with God.
There is no way for sin to be undone, or "cleansed." Whatever is tainted with sin is dead permanently (see above definition of death). Trying to undo a sin is like trying to undo something done yesterday. It's too late.
All of Adam's descendants have a tainted, sinful nature. We are all born that way—separated from God ("dead"). It's not God's fault. It is the consequence of the nature of sin (Adam sinned and scripturally we take his side that it was OK whenever we sin). What is natural is for our bodies to die and then for our spirits to continue to exist separated from God (also known as going to hell and/or the lake of fire). Our spirits are real, and cannot exist "nowhere." Heaven and hell are real places (and Scripture confirms it over and over; consider a study of God's just nature). Annihilation would mean that God's justice was not accomplished as well as mean God undid something he did (which he never does, because everything he does is good and perfect).
Unlike us, Jesus was not born with a sinful nature—he didn't inherit his nature from a sin-tainted father, but rather from his perfectly untainted Father. As a human (son of Mary) and as one who existed before Adam (son of God) he had authority over all humans. In other words, by choosing to be born from Mary, Jesus took responsibility for all humans. When he (the head of the human race) died he paid the required penalty for sin for all of us required by God's just nature. However, it was paid for through his bodily death, because as God, his spirit was untainted (since God never sinned). So at that point, it was an acceptable payment for all sin by humans according to God's nature (described by the passages about kinsman-redeemers).
But that is not everything that is pertinent. The above information is mostly a description of how the spiritual realm operates. It's like the spiritual equivalent of the laws of gravity and thermodynamics. They are in operation no matter what a person chooses or does. However, two other things matter:
1. Even though God has forgiven us, our spirits are still tainted with the sinful nature we were born with. As I said above, something tainted with sin can't be cleansed. It can only die. That means we still wouldn't be able to withstand God's presence. The only place we could go is somewhere without God's presence.
2. Both God and us have power and a free will (although ours is hindered by sin), and as such have the ability to alter the natural course of things.
Under certain conditions God grants those who are forgiven through Jesus' death a spiritual rebirth "in Christ." Our spirits are the real us and our bodies are like temporary clothing (or "tents"). It is a rebirth into a (very real) kind of unity with God. We are made alive in Christ to rectify our huge problem of our spirits being dead to God. The conditions required are that we believe he is real, that we choose to accept him as our God and Lord, and accept Jesus' payment for our sins. It's a package we call salvation through Christ.
When we are saved, we (our tainted spirits) participate in Jesus' death. Because we are reborn in Christ, we experience (a delayed) resurrection along with him. The pre-reborn us is gone and we are a new, sinless creation in Christ (in spirit, but we are still tainted in the physical realm and there is a battle to behave like our new, real self who is now in unity with God).
See the conclusion in the 2nd paragraph near the top.
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Your first part is correct only in that God because he is righteous will save man.
and that man must be cleansed of their sins...your right...what about those who refuse to do so?
Your right Jesus is our Advocate...the key word there is OUR....He's not the sinners advocate...
We are not righteous, none of us are. Christ is,He is the author and finisher of our faith. Everything that happens with us and to us in our lives as Born Again servants of God...Is because of HIm. Because it's not about us. It's all about Him.
We are that just either. How many times have you judged someone incorrectly...I would say you have in your post...judged incorrectly. Christ, never is wrong. He judges, righteously and with authority. God judges, righteously, Authority and with wrath. We are only made worthy through Christ.
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I didn't say that Jesus is the Advocate of those who are not saved. I'm not sure where you got that from.
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I was agreeing with you.
He is our advocate, right?
He just isn't the advocate of those lost in this world, who rebel against Him. If they stand before God in their sins...they will face an Angry God....alone.
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yeshuaslavejeff
simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
Amein.
There are many , multitudes , who are not forgiven.
When they die it is absolutely too late for them....
On judgment day, they find out.
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So you do not consider yourself to be a sinner?
There are two kinds of sinners; a sinner who has salvation and forgiveness through the blood of Jesus Christ and a sinner who does not have salvation through Jesus Christ.
All are sinners, though.
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That brings up an interesting point. Will god be happy or sad that He has to sentence those who are still dead in their sins to eternity apart from Him?
I agree with you, I think God will be sad. But He is just and righteous and must be just and righteous.
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